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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

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INVESTIGATION  OF  ORGANIZED  CRIME 
IN  INTERSTATE  COMMERCE 


u     „  HEARINGS 

// "<^  '    (/vAl  BEFORE  THE 

■    SPECIAL  COMMITTEE  TO  INVESTIGATE 
OEGAJVIZEI)  CRIME  IN  INTERSTATE  COMMERCE 
UNITED  STATES  SENATE 

EIGHTY-FIRST  CONGRESS 

SECOND  SESSION 
AND 

EIGHTY-SECOXD  CONGRESS 

FIRST  SESSION 
PURSUANT  TO 


S.  Res.  202 


(81st  Congress) 

A  RESOLUTION  AUTHORIZING  AN  INVESTIGATION  OF 

ORGANIZED  CRIME  IN  INTERSTATE  COMMERCE 


ILLINOIS 


/^., 


SEPTEMBER  9;  OCTOBER  5,  6,  7, 17,  IS,  19;  DECEMBER  18,  19,  20,  1950; 
JANUARY  5.  19,  1951 


Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Special  Committee  To  Investigate 
Organized  Crime  in  Interstate  Commerce 


UNITED   STATES 
GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFFICE 
«8958  WASHINGTOl^  :   1931 

PUBLIC 


H  V(r^1- 


C 


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U.  S.  SUPERINTENDENT  OF  DOCUMENTS 

MAR  26  1^51 


SPECIAL    COMMITTEE    TO    INVESTIGATE    ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN 
INTERSTATE  COMMERCE 

ESTES  KEPAUVER,  Tennessee,  Chairman 

HERBERT  R.  O'CONOR,  Maryland  CHARLES  W.  TOBEY,  New  Hampshire 

LESTER  C.  HUNT,  Wyoming  ALEXANDER  WILEY,  Wisconsin 

Rudolph  Halley,  Chief  Counsel 
II 


CONTENTS 


Testimony  of —  Page 

Accardo,  Anthony  J.,  alias  Joe  Batters,   Chicago,  111.,  accompanied 

by  George  F.  Callaglian,  attorney,  Chicago,  111 1318-1341 

Adducci,  James  J.,   State  representative,   Second    District,   Chicago, 

111 636-644 

Aiuppa,  Joseph,  Cicero,  111 1371-1375 

Amis,    William    D.,    investigator    for    the    committee,    Washington, 

J)  Q  _ _        _    _      _  _  1211—1213' 

Bennett^  Hugo^  Surfside^  Flalll lllllllllllll '275-308,' 33 1-346,  1288-1294 

Bernstein,  Eugene,  attorney,  Chicago,  111 467-515,701-710,916-937 

Black,  Abraham  J.,  Morris,  111.,  accompanied  by  Raymond  E.  Traf- 

elet,  attornev,  Chicago,  111 1 539-543 

Boyle,  John  S., "State's  attorney.  Cook  County,  111.   111-136,  151-174,  243-249 
Brantman,    William    M.,    accountant    and    income-tax    consultant, 

Chicago,  111 651-664 

Butler,    George,    detective    lieutenant,    police    department,    Dallas, 

Tex 1175-1187 

Butler,  Joseph  J.,  attornev,  Chicago,  111 308-331 

Campagna,  Mrs.  Charlotte,  Berwyn,  111 515-517.645-651 

Campagna,  Louis  ("Little  New  York"),  Berwyn,  111 53-74,543-557 

Capone,  John,  Chicago,  111 1251-1260 

Oapone,  Ralph  J.,  Chicago,  111.,  and  Mercer,  Wis 1226-1250 

Carroll,  Leo  Joseph,  Miami,  Fla 973-987 

Cawley,  Thomas  J.,  La  Salle,  111.,  accompanied  by  James  F.  Cahill, 

representing  Ward  R.  Lewis,  public  accountant.  La  Salle,  111 735-742, 

1302-1310 

D'Andrea,  Philip,  Hemet,  Calif 346-372 

DeLucia,  Paul,  alias  Ricca,  River  Forest,  111 1-52,219-242 

Devereux,  W^alter  J.,  Chicago  Crime  Commission 111-136 

Dragna,  Jack  I.,  Los  Angeles,  Calif.,  accompanied  by  Samuel  L.  Kur- 

land,  attorney,  Los  Angeles,  Calif "^ 407-437 

Eardley,  Robert  C,  first  assistant  attorney  general,  Illinois 111-136 

Egner,   Robert,   Chicago,   111.,  accompanied  by  Joseph  G.  Finnert-> , 

attorney-  ^ "  875-891 

Elliott,  Ivan  A.,  attorney  general,  State  of  Illinois 111-136 

Finerty,  Joseph  E.,  Gary,  Ind 742-743 

Fischetti,  Mrs.  Anne,  Aliami  Beach,  Fla.,  accompanied  by  Charles  E. 

Ford,  attorney,  Washington,  D.  C 249-255 

Friedman,  Charles,  Miami  Beach,  Fla.,  accompanied  bv  Ben  Cohen, 

attorney,  Miami  Beach,  Fla ' 987-1000 

Fusco,  Joseph  Charles,  Stevens  Hotel,  Chicago,  111 558-569,593-622 

Gherscovich,   Anthony  A.,  administrative  assistant,  office  of  State's 

attorney.  Cook  County,  111 256-262 

Gilbert,  Capt.  Daniel  A.,  chief  investigator,  State's  attornev's  office. 

Cook  County,  111 '_ 569-592 

Gioe  (Joye),  Charles,  Chicago,  111 74-110 

Greenberg,  Alex,  Chicago,  111 1343-1371 

Harrison,  Thomas,  captain  of  police,  Chicago,  111 622-636 

Hilton,  Henry  M.,  attorney,  Chicago,  Ill___ 1043-1067 

Ing,    Bilson,    Baltimore,   Md.,  accompanied  bv  Joseph  G.   Finnertv, 

attornev 1 '891-91 1 

Jeske,  Harold  H.,  Pistakee  Bav,  McHenrv,  111 1310-1314 

Johnston,  William  H.,  Chicago,  111.,  and  Aliami,  Fla 1294-1302 

Jones,  Edward  P.,  Chicago,  111.,  accompanied  bv  Aaron  Pavne,  at- 
tornev, Chicago,  Ill--._ ' ".._   1163-1175 

Kelly,  George,  Chicago,  111 1068-1095 


IV  CONTEOSPTS 

Testimony  of— Continued  .  or.:-       ^*^* 

Kelly,  Thomas  F.,  general  manager,  Continental  I'ress  Service,  Chi- 
cafTO   111     accompanied  bv  Walter  Gallagher  and  William  Dempsev, 

attorneys,  Washington,  D.  C 691-701,710-718,771-848,1095-1136 

Kennelly,'Hon.  Martin  ?!.,  mayor,  Chicago,  111 111-136 

Kerner  "  Otto,   Jr.,    United     States    attorney,     northern    district    of 

Illinois-!.  _!.--! 111-136,182-196 

Kutner,  Luis,  attorney,  Chicago,  IlL 447-466 

Lenz,  Edward  N.,  Crystal  Lake,  111.,  accompanied  by  Walter  Gallagher 

and  WiUiam  Dempsev,  attorneys,  Washington,  D.  C 1001-1021 

McBride,  Edward  John,   Chicago,   III,  accompanied  by  Walter  Gal- 
lagher and  William  Dempsey,  attorneys,  Washington,  D.  C 437-447 

McCullough,  Robert,  Cedar  Lake,  Ind 724-735 

McGoldrick,    Edward,    Chicago,    111.,    accompanied   by    Benjamm   J. 

Schultz,  attorney,  Chicago,  111 1022-1042 

Manno    Patrick,  alias  Pat  Manning,  Winnetka,  111.,  accompanied  by 

Joseph  E.  Green,  attorney,  Chicago,  111 753-755,  118&-1204 

Murphy,  Elden,  sergeant,  Illinois  State  police,  district  No.  6,  Pontiac, 


IlL 


534-539 


O'Har'a'  Ralph  J.,  fiedtville.  111.,  accompanied  by  George  F.  Callag- 

han,  attorney,  Chicago,  111 io?FToo« 

O'Mara,  John  J.,  Winthrop  Harbor,  111.      _-  l2l6-lZ2b 

Prendergast,  John  C,  commissioner  of  police,  Chicago,  ill.    111-ldb,  Id7-i51 
Pretzie,  Frederick,  Jr.,  administrative  assistant,  Chicago  Crime  Com- 
mission  o«n   1 oo? 

Patton,  John,  Burnham,  111 ....  1260-1287 

Roe,  Theodore,  Chicago,  111.,  accompanied  by  Edward  J.  He^ss    at- 

tornev,  Chicago,  111 .    ..  .         743-749,  1137 

Rosselli",  John,  Hollywood,  Calif.,  accompanied  by  Otto  Christensen, 

attorney,  Los  Angeles,  Calif ilQ~Q7l 

Samelson,  Morton  W^,  Chicago,  HI---- ahr kaV 7'^~7"7~7'^   o^tZo?! 

Serritella,  Daniel  Anthony,  Chicago,  111 664r-691,  757-771,  953-971 

Shea,  James  A.,  Chicago,  111  _ .  . .        . ?  ^7^4 

Silverberg,  Max,  Belmont  Hotel,  Chicago,  111.  .    719-724 

Spellisy,  William,  Morris,  111.,  accompanied  by  Raymond  E.  irafelet, 

attorney,  Chicago,  111 -  - -----  r 517-534 

Stevenson,  Hon.  Adlai  E.,  Governor  of  the  State  of  Illinois    accom- 
panied by  William  M.  Blair,  Jr.,  Administrative  Assistant,  and  V\  illiam 

Flanagan,  head,  division  of  reports ^;,^7rQ"  lonZTol  i 

Tremont    Peter  C,  Chicago,  111 749-753,  1204-1211 

wS,  Ehner^^  HI-    111-136,  154-182,  262-274 

Schedule  of  exhibits . . 

Saturday,  September  9,  1950 \ 

Thursday,  October  5,  1950 ^^^ 

Friday,  October  6,  1950 ^^^ 

Saturday,  October  7,  1950 2r7 

Tuesday,  October  17,  1950 *5' 

Wednesday,  October  18,  1950 o^^ 

Thursday,"  October  19,  1950 ^^o 

Monday,  December  18,  1950 »^^ 

Tuesday,  December  19,  1950 ^'^ 

Wednesday,  December  20,  1950 J^sy 

Friday,  January  5,  1951 ^„.„ 

Friday,  January  19,  1951 J^^^ 

Appendix 


CONTEINTS 
SCHEDULE  OF  EXHIBITS 


Number  and  summary  of  exhibits 


Intro- 
duced 

on 
page — 


1.  Subpena  for  appearance  of  Paul  DeLucia,  alias  Ricca,  River 

Forest,  111 

2.  Record  book  of  Paul  DeLucia,  showing  employes,  wages,  etc. 

3.  Income-tax  statements  of  Paul  DeLucia  for  the  years   1947 

1948,  and  1949 

4.  Two  red  books  of  record,  submitted  by  Paul  DeLucia 

5.  Subpena  for  appearance  of  Louis  Campagna,  River  Forest, 

111 

6.  Ledger  of  accounts  submitted  by  Louis  Campagna 

7.  Brown  envelopes  containing  bills  and  papers  of  Louis  Cam- 

pagna   

8.  Folder  containing  tax  returns  of  Louis  Campagna 

9.  Miscellaneous  documents  of  Louis  Campagna 

10.  Documents  pertaining  to  income-tax  returns  of  Louis  Cam- 

pagna   

11.  Manila  folder  containing  miscellaneous  documents  of  Louis 

Campagna 

12.  Subpena  for  appearance  of  Charles  Gioe,  Chicago,  111 

13.  Canceled  checks  and  bank  statements  of  Charles  Gioe 

14.  Book  entitled  "Work  Sheets,  Balance  Sheets,  Bank  Recon- 

ciliations, etc.,"  submitted  by  Charles  Gioe 

15.  Black  ledger  book  of  Charles  Gioe 

16.  Envelope  containing  balance  sheets  of  Charles  Gioe 

17.  Penciled  copv  of  income-tax  returns  of  Charles  Gioe,  for  1941 

and  1942_I 

18.  Tax  return  of  Charles  Gioe  for  1948 

19.  Tax  return  of  Charles  Gioe  for  1949 

20.  List  of  police  captains  suspended  by  Chicago  Police  Depart- 

ment, furnished  by  Commissioner  Prendergast 

21.  Statement  outlining  procedure  for  obtaining  amusement  and 

liquor  licenses  in  the  city  of  Chicago  and  in  the  State  of 
Illinois,  furnished  by  Mayor  Kennelly --- 

22.  Statement  to  the  committee  from  Ivan  A.  Elliott,  attorney 

general,  State  of  Illinois,  dated  July  11,  1950 

23.  Chart  showing  organization  of  Chicago  Police  Department, 

furnished  by  Commissioner  Prendergast 

24.  Number  of  crimes  reported  for  the  first  10  months  of  1949, 

from  the  Chicago  Police  Department 

25.  Two  letters   to   the   committee  from   Sheriff   E.    M.    Walsh, 

Cook  County,  111.,  dated  July  7  and  August  17,  1950 

26.  Tabulations  submitted  b\^  Gov.  Adali  E.  Stevenson,  showing 

activities  of  Illinois  State  Police  force,  with  regard  to  gam- 
bling   

27.  Information  furnished  by  Governor  Stevenson  with  regard  to 

to  "some  35  syndicates  of  various  cities,  etc." 

28.  Records  submited  bv  John  S.  Bovle,  State's  attornev,  Cook 

County,  111 1 1 

29.  Information  and  letters  furnished  by  State's  Attorney  Boyle 

with  regard  to  sheriff's  office  car  being  observed  outside 
gambling  house 

30.  Grand-jury  statements  re  Chief  of  Police  Henry  A.  Wlekinski^ 

31.  Resume  of  activities  and  raids  made  bv   State's  Attornev 

Boyle,  Cook  County,  111 1 1 

32.  Booklet  entitled  "Let's  Look  at  His  Record,"  submitted  bv 

Sheriff  Walsh,  Cook  County,  111 "_ 

33.  List  of  stockholdings  of  Hugo  Bennett 

34.  Package   submitted    by    Philip    D'Andrea,    containing   bank 

statements,  deeds,  etc 

See  footnotes  at  end  of  table. 


2 

4 

5 
5 

53 
53 

53 
54 
54 

54 

54 
75 
75 

75 
75 
75 

75 
75 

75 

120 


128 
136 
137 
144 
182 

211 
213 
243 


257 
259 

259 

274 

277 

346 


VI 


CONTENTS 
SCHEDULE  OF  EXHIBITS— Continued 


Number  and  summary  of  exhibits 


Intro- 
duced 

on 
page — 


Appears 

on 
page — 


35.  Statement  of  William  Spellisy,  Morris,  111 

36.  Photographs  of  raid  on  Seven   Gables,  identified  by  Elden 

Murphy,  sergeant,  Illinois  State  Police 

37.  Photostats  of  figures  re  Seven  Gables  operation 

38.  Photostats  of  two  checks  signed  by  Max  Silverberg,  pavable 

to  Hugo  Bennett,  dated  October  28,  1944,  and  May  15, 
1948,  in  the  amounts  of  $5,000  and  $15,000,  respectively, 
and  photostat  of  note  covering  $15,000  loan 

39.  Letter  dated  July  13,  1949,  from  J.  M.  Lebit,  to  Commissioner 

of  Internal  Revenue 

40.  Summarv  of  evidence  now  in  the  record  as  of  a  date  prior  to 

Decernber  18,  1950 

41.  Chart  showing  telegraph  lines  operated  by  Continental  Press 

Service 

41A.  Chart  showing  wire  service  operated  by  Continental  Press 
Service  and  its  distributors  as  of  May  1950 

42.  Chart  showing  operations  of  Trans-American  Publishing  & 

News  Service,  as  of  March  1947 

43.  Chronology  of  certain  major  events  in  the  history  of  the  wire 

service  since  1945 

44.  List  of  witnesses  on  whom  the  committee  has  been  unable  to 

serve  subpenas  as  of  December  18,  1950,  and  who  have  not 
appeared  in  response  to  the  committee's  requests 

45.  Transcript  of  the  bank  account  of  Trans-American  Publish- 

ing &  News  Service,  Inc.,  with  Amalgamated  Trust  &  Sav- 
ings Bank 

46.  Photostatic  copies  of  deposit  slips  of  Trans-American  Pub- 

lishing &  News  Service,  Inc 

47.  Bank  deposit  slips  of  currency,  showing  deposits  of  Trans- 

American  Publishing  &  News  Service,  Inc 

48.  Recordak  checks  made  to  Trans-American  Publishing  &  News 

Service,  Inc 

49.  Memorandum  prepared  by  Harold  G.  Robinson,  chief  investi- 

gator to  the  committee,  summarizing  testimony  before  the 
committee  on  the  wire  service  in  Las  Vegas,  re  Golden  Nug- 
get horse  book,  operated  by  "Bugsy"  Siegel  prior  to  his 
deathj 

50.  Telegram  dated  April  7,  1947,  from  W.  Wortman,  Reliable 

News  Service,  East  St.  Louis,  Mo.,  to  R.  &  H.  Publishers, 
177  North  State  Street,  Chicago,  111.,  attention  Phil  Katz.. 

51.  Eleven  photographs  of  a  building  called  the   Show   Place, 

located  just  outside  the  Garden  State  race  track,  Camden, 
N.  J.,  showing  the  wigwagging  of  racing  results  going  on.. 

52.  Interview  with  Richard  M.  Mangan,  by  Investigator  George 

H.  Martin,  showing  Mangan's  employment  originally  by 
Continental  Press  Service  and  then  the  switch-oflf  to  Howard 

Sports  News 

63.  Letter  to  Hon.  Estes  Kefauver,  dated  October  6,  1950,  signed 
by  E.  R.  Shute,  vice  president.  Western  Union 

54.  Sheet  of  definitions  and  regulations  sent  to  the  committee  by 

Western  Union  relating  to  leased  facilities  in  the  Miami 
Beach  area 

55.  Various  materials  from   Western   Union,   including   "Leased 

circuits  used  for  dissemination  of  racing  information  in  the 
State  of  Florida,"  showing  discontinuation  and  restoration 
of  service;  also  showing  great  number  of  hotels  in  Miami 
area  which  had  wire  service 

56.  Letter  from  Eugene  Bernstein,  dated  July  14,  1947,  to  Reliable 

News  Service,  1919  State  Street,  East  St.  Louis,  111 

See  footnotes  at  end  of  table. 


519 


1383 


537 
537 

721 

1384 

829 

(') 

854 

1386 

854 

e) 

854 

1390 

854 

1390 

854 

1391 

854 

857 
858 
858 
863 


1394 


864 

1394 

871 

1396 

876 

Q) 

889 

1396 

893 

1399 

895 

1400 

896 
921 


1401 
1405 


COXTENTS 
SCHEDULE  OF  EXHIBITS— Continued 


vn 


Number  and  summary  of  exhibits 


Intro- 
duced 

on 
page — 


Appears 

on 
page — 


57.f  List'of^customers  of  General  News  Service  Bureau,  submitted 
by  Edward  McGoldrick,  owner 

58.[  Letter  dated  February  24,  1947,  from  George  W.  Rochester, 
attorney,  addressed  to  Ralph  O'Hara,  Trans-American 
Publishing  &  News  Service,  Chicago,  111.,  also  attachment 
on  letterhead  of  George  W.  Rochester,  attorney,  addressed 
to  Trans-American  "Re  People  v.  Moran,  Luczak,  and 
Sankiewica,"  listing  certain  costs  in  the  amount  of  $1,170_ 

59.  Letter  from  Ralph  J.  O'Hara,  Trans-American  Publishing  & 

News  Service,  Inc.,  addressed  to  George  W.  Rochester, 
acknowledging  receipt  of  letter  of  February  24,  1947 

60.  Figures  taken  from  books  and  records  of  Maine-Idaho  Club, 

showing  gross  and  net  income 

61.  Figures  taken  from  books  of  Maine-Idaho  Club  for  the  years 

1948  and  1949,  showing  the  "ins"  and  "outs,"  the  net 
income,  the  paper  and  supplies  purchased,  rent  and  moving, 
machines,  light  and  telephone,  taxes,  repairs,  etc 

62.  Chart  of  the  policy-wheel  operations  in  Chicago,  111.,  1945  to 

1950,  composed  of  information  from  the  files  of  the  com- 
mittee   

63.  Photograph  taken  by  department  of  public  safety  photog- 

rapher, in  Dallas,  Tex.,  showing  Pat  Manno,  alias  Manning, 
Paul  Jones,  and  Jack  Knapp  leaving  home  of  Sheriff  Steve 
Guthrie,  after  conversation  which  was  recorded  by  tech- 
nician from  Dallas  district  attorney's  office 

64.  Partial  transcript  of  recordings  of  conversations  between  Paul 

Jones,  Pat  Manno,  alias  Manning,  Lieutenant  Butler,  and 
Sheriff  Steve  Guthrie,  held  in  residence  of  Sheriff  Guthrie, 
in  Dallas,  Tex 

65.  Minutes  of  meeting  of  industry  committee  on  H.  R.  6736, 

American  Coin  Machine  Manufacturer's  Association,  on 
February  17,  1950 

66.  List  of  distributors  of  O.  D.  Jennings  Co.,  submitted  by  Harold 

H.  Jeske,  vice  president 

67.  Map  of  United  States,  showing  machines  sold  by  O.  D.  Jen- 

nings Co.,  in  each  State  in  1949,  prepared  and  submitted 
by  Harold  H.  Jeske,  vice  president 

68.  Chart  showing  leadership  of  Capone  syndicate  and  muscling 

into  S.  &  G.  in  Florida 

69.  Photostats  of  two  checks,  each  in  the  amount  of  $5,000,  from 

the  S.  &  G.  Service,  dated  February  2  and  February  9,  1950, 
payable  to  the  order  of  Tony  Accardo 

70.  Resume  of  property  holdings  and  business  interests  of  Alex 

Greenberg,  Chicago,  111 

71.  List  of  gambling  establishments  taken  from  list  of  customers 

of  Taylor  &  Co.,  Chicago,  111 

72.  Books  and  records  of  Joseph  Aiuppa,  Cicero,  111 


1027 

1091 

1091 
1150 

1163 
1176 

1184 
1184 


1405 

1406 

1406 
1407 

1408 
1409 

1410 


1312 

1410 

1312 

1413 

1312 

e) 

1320 

1415 

1325 

1416 

1359 

{') 

1377 
1377 

(0 

'  Returned  to  witness. 
'  On  file  with  committee. 


INVESTIGATION  OF  OKGANIZED  CRIME  IN  INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 


SATURDAY,   SEPTEMBER   9,    1950 

United  States  Senate, 
Special  Committee  To  Investigate  Organized 

Crime  in  Interstate  Commerce, 

Washington,  D.  C. 
executive  session 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call  of  the  chairman,  at  10  a.  m.,  in 
room  457,  Senate  Office  Building,  Senator  Estes  Kefauver  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present :  Senators  Kefauver,  "Wiley,  and  Hunt. 

Also  present :  Rudolph  Halley,  chief  counsel,  and  George  Robinson, 
associate  counsel. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  this 
committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  do. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  do. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  Mr.  Robinson,  will  you  proceed. 

TESTIMONY  OF  PAUL  DeLUCIA,  ALIAS  RICCA,  RIVER  FOREST,  ILL. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  state  your  full  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Paul  DeLucia. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  you  known  by  any  other  name  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  are  the  other  names? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Ricca  and  Salvi. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  ife  your  present  address  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  River  Forest,  111. 

The  ChxURMan.  How  many  different  names  did  you  use? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  Any  place  I  go  I  mention  any  name 
that  comes  to  my  mind. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  did  you  do  that  for  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  just  a  habit. 

Senator  Wiley.  Just  a  habit  ? 

(No  response.) 

The  Chairman.  How  old  are  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  52,  51. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  served  with  a  subpena  on  the  5th  day  of 
September  to  appear  before  the  committee  and  produce  certain  records ; 
is  that  correct? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 


2  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN    INTERSTATE    COMAIERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  liave  those  records  with  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  produce  them? 

]Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  olfer  in  evidence  the  subpena? 

The  Chairman.  Yes;  the  subpena  will  be  received  in  evidence.  It 
describes  upon  the  face  of  it  the  records  that  the  witness  has  been 
required  to  bring.  It  will  be  put  in  the  record  at  this  point  as  exhibit 
No.  1. 

(Exhibit  No.  1  appears  in  the  appendix  on  p.  1379.) 

Mr.  DeLucia.  May  I  explain  something?  The  subpena  was  to 
bring  the  records  for  10  years.  I  only  got  the  records  from  1947. 
That  is  the  day  I  came  out  from  the  penitentiary.     Before  that  I  was 

3  years  and  8  months  in  the  penitentiary,  and  during  that  time  there 
was  a  tax  settlement,  so  all  the  records  I  don't  have  any  more.  I  can 
only  give  you  the  records  since  I  came  out. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  go  to  the  penitentiary  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  1944— the  last  day  of  1943. 
Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  come  out  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  1947. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  understand  these  records  which  you  are  producing 
are  only  from  the  time  that  you  came  out  of  the  penitentiary. 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  that  is  all  I  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  records  from  1940  until  the  time  that 
you  went  into  the  penitentiary? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  filed  my  income  tax  regularly  but  I  haven't 
got  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  canceled  checks  for  that  period  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  that  is  all  gone. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  canceled  checks  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  sure. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Where  are  they? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  When  I  come  out,  I  was  told  by  my 
lawyer  that  the  old  records  were  no  good  any  more  and  they  were  all 
settled  and  I  could  do  what  I  want. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  told  you  that  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  My  lawyer. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  is  your  lawyer? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bernstein.  The  tax  man  told  me  the  records  were 
no  good  any  more  so  I  just  got  rid  of  them. 

Senator  Wiley.  Give  me  the  name  of  that  lawyer. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bernstein,  Eugene  Bernstein.  He  is  a  tax  man.  He 
is  the  fellow  who  took  my  income-tax  case  with  the  Government? 

Senator  Wiley.  Was  he  a  Government  man  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  he  was  my  lawyer. 

Senator  Wiley.  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    I  got  those  records  from  him  when  I  came  out. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  have  any  Kansas  City  lawyer  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  No  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  destroy  the  records  or  did  Mr.  Bernstein? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  did.     I  got  a  room  and  got  rid  of  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  destroy  them  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTEiRSTATE    COMMERCE  3 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Shortly  after  I  come  out.  Shortly  after  he  gave  them 
to  me. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Shortly  after  you  came  out  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Shortly  after  he  give  them  to  me. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Can  you  fix  the  approximate  time  when  you  did 
destroy  them,  what  year  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  tliink  1947,  the  latter  part  of  1947. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  destroyed  the  records  that  j^ou  had  from  1940 
up  until  the  time  that  you  went  into  the  penitentiary  in  1947 ;  is  that 
right  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  Let  me  explain  this.  Mr.  Bernstein  told  me 
that  my  income-tax  case  was  cleared  up  to  1943.  All  my  tax  with  the 
Government  was  settled  up  to  1943.  That  was  the  year  I  went  to  jail. 
After  that  I  was  3  years  and  8  months  in  jail,  and  of  course  I  had 
nothing  to  show,  so  when  he  gave  me  the  records,  he  said,  "You  can  do 
as  you  want  with  the  records,  the  records  are  worthless,  the  tax  is 
settled,''  and  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Mr.  Bernstein  tell  you  to  destroy  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  he  told  me  they  are  useless  and  do  what  you 
want. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  get  it  clear.  During  the  time  from  1940  to 
the  time  you  went  to  the  penitentiary,  was  Mr.  Bernstein  preparing 
your  income-tax  returns  ? 

Mr.  DeLuc'a.  No ;  not  from  1940. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  saying  from  1940  until  the  time  you  went  into 
the  penitentiary. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    He  got  my  case  when  I  was  in  jail. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AVlio  prepared  your  tax  returns  from  1940  to  the 
time  you  went  to  jail  ? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  Myself. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  You  prepared  them  yourself  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  have  no  cancelled  checks,  no  books  show- 
ing receipts  and  expenditures  for  the  period  from  1940  until  the  time 
you  went  into  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes;  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  destroyed  all  of  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  keep  such  books? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes;  I  had  a  checkbook  with  Northern  Trust. 
You  know  those  records.  After  all,  them  days  there  was  nothing  for 
me  to  keep. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  a  bank  account  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  with  the  Nortliern  Trust. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  bank  statements  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  destroy  all  the  bank  statements  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    The  Northern  Trust. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  destroy  all  check  stubs? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  destroy  all  the  copies  of  your  tax  returns 
for  that  period? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Whatever  I  got  from  him,  I  destroyed.  It  was  all 
that  he  had.     He  had  all  the  stuff  to  prepare  my  case  with  the  Tax 


4  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Court.  So  I  got  those  records  back,  and  he  said,  "Do  what  you 
want,"  and  I  destroyed  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  During  that  time  that  you  were  in  the  penitentiary, 
did  somebody  operate  your  business  for  you  'i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  did  not  operate  it.  I  rent  my  farm  to  Francis 
Corri,  and  I  got  $7  an  acre  rent.     That  was  filed. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  kept  the  books  for  you  while  you  were  in  the 
penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bernstein. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  are  the  books  that  were  kept  at  the  time 
you  were  in  the  penitentiary? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Them  3  years  went  together  with  all  the  stuff  he 
gave  me.     Naturally  I  got  rid  of  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  destroyed  all  that  at  the  time  you  came  out  of 
the  penitentiary? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes;  from  the  time  I  come  out,  there  it  is  [indi- 
cating] . 

Mr,  Robinson.  Now,  when  Mr.  Bernstein  was  preparing  your  tax 
returns,  what  information  did  you  submit  to  him  as  a  basis  for 
preparing  the  returns? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  was  very  easy.  The  rent  I  was  getting  from  the 
farm  was  so  much.  I  think  it  was  about  6  or  7  thousand  dollars  a 
year. 

The  Chairman.  How  did  you  destroy  the  records  ?  Did  you  throw 
them  away  or  burn  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  burned  them.  They  were  useless.  I  didn't  know 
this  was  going  to  come  up. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  burn  them? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes;  I  burned  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  take  these  records  and  describe  what 
each  one  is? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  This  is  the  book  where  all  the  people  work,  their 
security  number  and  all  that. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  identify  them  as  we  go  along  for  the 
record,  so  we  can  put  them  in  as  exhibits  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  These  are  my  income  tax. 

The  Chairman.  Let  this  be  marked  as  "Exhibit  No.  2." 

(Exhibit  No.  2  was  returned  to  witness  after  analysis  by  the  com- 
mittee.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  Directing  your  attention  to  exhibit  2,  would  you 
describe  what  that  book  is  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  know  I  am  not  familiar  with  the  book  because 
Bernstein  kept  it.  That  is  supposed  to  be  the  agenda  where  the 
men  work  and  how  much  they  get  a  year.  You  know,  you  are  sup- 
posed to  report  to  the  Government  how  much  you  pay  them  a  year. 
If  you  pay  over  $500,  you  have  to  report  that,  and  their  security 
number. 

Mr.  Robinson.  On  exhibit  2,  when  did  you  start  keeping  that  book  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  1947.  What  is  there,  I  am  not  very  much  familiar. 
He  has  been  taking  care  of  all  that. 


ORGANIZEiD    CRIME.   IN   INTEiRSTATE    COMMERCE  O 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Who  keeps  the  book  for  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bernstein. 

Mr.  Robinson.  All  right. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  let  us  go  on  with  the  next  exhibit.  That 
will  be  made  exhibit  No.  2  to  the  testimony. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  are  those  j)apers? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  These  are  the  income-tax  returns. 

Mr.  Robinson.  For  what  period  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1947,  1948,  1949. 

The  Chairman.  That  will  be  exhibit  No.  3. 

Mr.  Robinson.  These  two  red  books  are  marked  "Exhibit  No.  4." 

The  ChairjMan.  Those  will  be  combined  as  exhibit  No.  4. 

(Exhibits  Nos.  3  and  4  were  later  returned  to  witness.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  are  those  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all  the  exj)ense. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Exhibits  4  and  5  pertain  to  what? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  To  the  farm — my  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  books  or  records  showing  interest 
held  in  any  property  or  any  business  other  than  the  ones  you  have 
submitted  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  I  own  no  interest.  I  only  own  about  170  shares 
or  180  shares  of  Bank  of  America.  I  think  that  is  in  there,  too.  Those 
shares  turn  dividends,  and  that  is  coming  in,  and  I  turn  that  in.  Any- 
way I  have  about  170  or  180  shares  of  Bank  of  America  stock.  That 
book  does  not  show  my  house  at  River  Forest  and  my  house  at  Long 
Beach. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  receive  income  from  those  properties? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  correspondence  relating  to  any  of 
these  documents  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  correspondence  relating  to  any 
of  these  documents  ? 

The  Chairman.  Any  letters. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Anything  that  is  there  can  be  backed  up  with  checks 
or  bills. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  the  canceled  checks  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  are  they  ? 

]\Ir.  DeLucia.  I  did  not  bring  them  with  me.  If  you  want  them, 
I  will  bring  them.    I  didn't  think  it  was  necessary. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  those  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson,  Do  you  have  them  in  your  possession  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  All  the  records  from  1947,  I  got. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  them  in  your  rtossession  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  Mr.  Bernstein  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Why  were  those  not  produced  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  didn't  know  you  needed  it.  That  is  all  there.  I 
didn't  know  you  wanted  that. 


6  ORGANIZED   CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  They  are  called  for  by  the  subpena,  that  is,  the  can- 
celed checks. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  sorry.    I  did  not  understand  that. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  send  or  bring  in  the  canceled  checks  as 
Mr.  Robinson  directs? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Certainly, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  other  documents  besides  the  can- 
celed checks  that  you  did  not  produce  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What  other  documents  are  you  talking  about  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  bank  statements  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  produce  all  of  those  statements? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  properties  do  you  presently  own,  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  own  a  house  in  Long  Beach  and  a  house  at  River 
Forest. 

The  Chairman.  Where  is  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Illinois.    And  the  farm  in  Illinois. 

The  Chairman.  Where  is  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  Kendall  County,  111. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How^  large  is  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1,100  acres. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wliat  is  the  value  of  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  you  mean  right  now? 

Mr.  Robinson.  If  you  know? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  just  sold  some  land  around  there  for  $450  an 
acre,  so  you  can  figure  it  out. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  buy  that  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  buy  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  in  1941  or  1942. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  pay  for  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  paid  $130  an  acre  from  the  Prudential  Co.  I  paid 
down  $35,000  and  year  by  year  I  have  been  paying  the  mortgage.  I 
think  I  still  owe  about  $80,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  improvements  have  you  put  on  it  ? 

The  Chairman.  What  was  the  total  purchase  price  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $130,000,  something  around  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  improvements  have  you  put  on  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  would  say  over  $100,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Since  1947  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir.  I  build  something  previous  to  that,  but 
most  of  the  building  I  did  from  1947  on. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  put  $100,000  improvements  on  it  since  1947? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Maybe  more  than  that.     Don't  keep  me  to  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Approximately. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  improvement  did  you  put  on  it  before 
1947? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  suppose  I  build  a  corn  crib  there  about  $4,500. 
It  is  too  far  gone.  I  believe  $10,000  or  something  like  that.  I  wouldn't 
know  for  sure. 

Senator  Wiley.  When  you  bought  the  farm,  did  you  buy  any  cows, 
horses,  or  machinery  ? 


OR^ATSriZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  7 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  you  see,  the  insurance  company  had  that. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  just  bought  the  land  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  had  it  rented.    I  bought  the  land. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  do  you  have  on  it  now  in  horses,  cows, 
machinery,  and  so  forth? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  got  about  120  steers — not  milk  cows,  but  heifers, 
steers,  you  know ;  about  300  pigs ;  about  two  or  three  hundred  chickens, 
horses. 

Senator  Wiley.  Machinery  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Huh? 

Senator  Wiley.  Machinery  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  did  you  spend  for  all  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  is  all  in  there,  Senator.     I  wouldn't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  receive  any  revenue  from  the  farm? ' 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Approximately  how  much  do  you  receive  annually 
in  revenue  from  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  is  in  the  income  tax.  I  had  a  little  memorandum. 
I  think  the  first  year  was  $8,000,  or  something  like  that,  the  second 
year  $25,000,  the  third  year  was  $42,000,  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  year  did  you  receive  $42,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Last  year.     That  is  all  in  there  on  the  income  tax. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  property  that  you  have  at  River  Forest? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  a  house  and  a  lot. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  your  residence  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  acquire  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1938. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  pay  for  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $25,000.  I  paid  $25,000  for  the  house  and  I  paid 
about  $4,000  for  the  lot.    It  was  a  good  buy. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  improvements  have  you  put  on  that? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  On  the  house  I  put  around  $30,000  improvement 
and  on  the  lot,  which  cost  me  around  $4,000  as  close  as  I  remember, 
that  is  to  improve.    It  was  all  a  mess,    I  leveled  it  off. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  build  the  house  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  built  an  addition  to  the  house. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  value  of  the  other  property  at  Long 
Beach  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  bought  a  house  for  $14,000.  I  bought  that  in  1934. 
I  remember  that.  Since  then  I  made  some  improvement  and  all 
that.  Then  I  bought  about  four  extra  lots.  Do  you  want  to  know 
the  value  now  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  If  you  know. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  house  burned  down,  and  I  only  got  a  caretaker 
house  there,  so  you  can  figure  for  yourself.  I  don't  know.  It  prob- 
ably went  up  a  lot.  I  suppose  I  can  get  forty  or  fifty  thousand  dollars 
for  that  place  if  I  wanted  to  sell  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  other  property  do  you  have? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  That  is  about  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "That  is  about  all."  Is  there  any  other  that  you 
do  have? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 


8  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Senator  Wiley.  Stocks  and  bonds  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  I  have  stocks.  I  have  about  $11,000  worth  of 
stock. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  company? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Government  stock,  what  you  call  it,  war  bonds. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Government  bonds. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  other  bonds  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  stock  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Stock  I  told  you. 

Senator  Wiley.  Bank  of  America. 

Mr.  Dp:Lucia.  Yes,  and  I  think  I  have  two  or  three  shares  of  the 
Farmer  Grange  company.  That  is  a  mutual  affair  there.  You  bring 
your  stuff  in  and  you  get  a  dividend  tliere  every  year.  You  buy  from 
them.    It  is  a  Farmer  Grange  company. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Approximately  what  is  the  total  value  of  the  stock 
you  have  ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  Bank  of  America  today  costs  about  $27  a  share. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  shares  did  you  say  you  have? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  180. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all  the  stock  you  own? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all  I  can  recall. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  about  cash  ?    How  much  cash  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  How  much  cash  I  got.    Do  I  have  to  tell  you  that, 


sir 


Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.    I  think  I  got  about  close  to  $40,000. 

Senator  AViley.  In  cash  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Do  you  have  any  safety  deposit  boxes  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  got  it  in  the  room  or  some  other  place. 

Senator  Wiley.  Where  is  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  If  I  tell  you,  you  can't  get  it  out  of  there  anyway. 

The  Chairman.  This  is  an  executive  session. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Do  I  have  to  tell  it  ? 

The  Chairman.  You  have  to  tell  it. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  got  it  home. 

Senator  Wiley.  Do  you  have  any  safety  deposit  boxes  in  any  banks? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  First  National  Bank. 

Senator  Wiley.  Any  other  bank? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir.    . 

Senator  Wiley.  First  National  Bank  of  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  do  you  keep  in  your  safety  deposit  box  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  All  the  documents  and  stuff. 

Mr.  Halley.  Any  cash  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  keep  money  there,  too. 

Mr.  Haeley.  Do  you  have  cash  there  now,  too? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  now. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  own  any  diamonds  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  My  Mrs.  has. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  9 

Mr.  Halley,  Will  you  estimate  tlie  value  of  the  diamonds? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Now,  I  don't  know  what  she  has.    She  has  a  ring . 

Mr.  Halley.  AVould  you  estimate  the  value  of  the  diamond  ^ 

]\lr.  DeLucia.  No.    A  bracelet  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  your  best  estimate  of  the  value  ?     What  did 
you  pay  for  them  altogether? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  about  the  pricing  of  those  things.     It 
was  kind  of  a  small  affair. 

The  CiiAiKMAN.  $5,000  or  $10,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLl^cia.  I  would  say  around  four  or  five  thousand  dollars, 
something  like  that. 

Senator  Wiley.  That  is  your  wife  you  are  talking  about? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  make  any  gifts  to  anybody  else  during  this 
period  since  you  came  out  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  Does  your  wife  have  any  stock  in  her  name? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  Any  property? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  house  at  River  Forest  and  the  house  at  Long 
Beach  is  in  her  name  and  the  farm  is  in  my  name  and  her  name. 

Senator  Wiley.  Does  she  have  a  safety  deposit  box  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No :  we  have  a  joint  deposit  box. 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  given  to  her  any  other  property  except 
what  you  mentioned  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  any  children? 
Mr.  DeLucia,  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  many? 

Mr.  DeLu'cia.  Three. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  have  you  done  for  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Well,  the  one  is  married. 

Senator  Wiley.  I  understand.     But  what  have  you  given  to  them, 
or  conveyed  to  them  ?     Have  you  given  them  any  property  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 
Senator  Wiley,  Any  stock? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  had  a  trust  fund  for  them. 
Senator  Wiley.  How  much  did  you  set  that  up  for  ? 
Mr,  DeLucia,  $20,000, 
Senator  Wiley.  When  did  you  do  that? 
Mr.  DeLucia,  1936. 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  set  up  any  other  funds  since? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  For  my  boy,  $20,000  at  the  same  time. 
Senator  Wiley.  One  boy  and  one  girl  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 
Senator  Wiley.  That  was  in  1936  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes, 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  put  any  money  in  it  since  then  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  not  since  then. 
Senator  Wiley.  Do  you  carrv  any  insurance? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  ' 
Senator  Wiley.  Life  insurance  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia,  Yes, 

6S958 — 51 — pt.  5 2 


10  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  are  the  premiums  on  your  life  insur- 
ance? 

Mr.  DeLttcia.  With  the  Northwest  Wisconsin. 

Senator  Wilet.  That  is  a  good  company. 

Mr,  DeLucia.  I  think  I  pay  about  seven  or  eight  hundred  dollars 
a  year.  It  is  a  $20,000  policy.  There  are  different  ones,  five,  five,  and 
ten. 

Senator  Wiley,  That  is  all  you  carry  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  as  far  as  I  recall. 

The  Chairman.  Very  well.     Let  us  proceed. 

Mr.  DeLucia,  My  boy,  the  little  one,  I  took  a  policy — I  was  going  to 
take  the  same  policy  for  the  little  boy,  and  I  was  paying  $2,000  a  year, 
but  I  dropped  it  since  1940  or  1939. 

Senator  Wiley.  This  book  indicates  your  income  since  you  came 
out  of  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  were  paroled,  were  you  not  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  And  that  is  your  only  source  of  income,  that  which, 
you  have  enumerated  here? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  From  your  farm  and  from  your  stocks. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  Any  other  sources  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley,  And  from  the  you  have  made  all  the  improvements 
and  investments  since  1947  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  No,  I  put  my  money  in  there. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  had  some  money  when  you  went  to  the  peni- 
tentiary ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  did  you  have  when  you  went  to  the 
penitentiary  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  Three  hundred  thousand  dollars. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  paid  the  fine? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Senator  Wiley,  There  was  $10,000  paid. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  never  found  out  who  paid  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  have  no  suspicion  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  Wlio  was  your  attorney  in  your  parole  case? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What  do  you  mean  ? 

Senator  Wiley.  Wlien  you  came  out  of  prison  you  were  paroled. 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Yes, 

Senator  Wiley.  How  big  a  sentence  did  you  get? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Ten  years. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  served  3  years? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  are  out  on  parole  now? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  were  not  pardoned? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  11 

Senator  "Wiley.  Who  was  your  attorney? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  story  is  well  known.     It  is  Mr.  Dillon. 

Senator  Wiley.  Where  is  he,  from  St.  Louis? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  St.  Louis,  Mo.? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  is  his  first  name  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.     I  don't  know  his  first  name. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  did  you  pay  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  After  I  came  out  we  paid  him  $10,000.  Campagna 
paid  $5,000  and  I  paid  $5,000. 

Senator  Wiley.  And  when  you  went  in.  you  had  $300,000  in  cash? 

Mr.  DeLlxia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Where  was  that  stored  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  put  it  away  some  place. 

Senator  Wiley.  Where  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  my  house. 

Senator  Wiley.  Do  you  have  special  vaults  in  your  house  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  did  you  accumulate  the  $300,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Gambling. 

Senator  Weley.  Was  it  involved  in  relation  to  pressure  put  on  the 
moving-picture  concern  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo.  I  never  got  anything  from  the  movie  picture 
but  jobs. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  kind  of  gambling  was  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Hoi-ses,  dice,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  KoBiNsox.  Do  you  have  a  son-in-law? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Electrical  business. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  much  did  you  put  in  that  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  dicbvt  put  nothing  in  it. 

Mr.  R'jBixsox'.  Didn't  3'ou  set  him  up  in  that  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBix'sox.  How  did  he  finance  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  in  the  Army.  He  had  some  money  saved. 
He  came  out.     He  didn't  have  much  to  invest  there  anyway. 

Mr.  RoBiNsox^  You  never  put  any  money  into  that  business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox'.  How  much  have  you  had  in  cash  in  your  home  al 
anv  one  time  ? 

5lr.  DeLucia.  Well,  the  most  I  had  was  $300,000. 

Mr.  RoBixsox-^.  When  did  you  have  that,  at  the  time  you  went  into 
the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  had  that  mixed  up,  you  see.  I  had  some  in  the  box 
and  some  at  home.  When  I  went  away,  I  took  it  out  of  the  box  and 
I  put  it  away. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  much  have  you  had  in  the  safe-deposit  box  in 
cash  at  anv  one  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  had  $100,000  sometimes. 

Mr.  RoBixsox'.  You  never  had  any  more  than  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  maybe  more.  I  don't  recall  those  things.  That 
is  a  long  time  ago. 


12  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  Rgo  'I 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  around  1940  or  1941,  something  like  tliat. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  a  safe-deposit  box  during  the  1930's? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  now  how  long  I  got  the  box.  I 
think  I  had  it  before,  around  1938  or  1939,  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Mr.  Dillon  before  you  went  into  the 
penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  how  he  was  retained? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  understand  Mrs.  Campagna  knowed  some- 
body in  St.  Louis  and  she  made  the  connection  and  Mr.  Dillon  went 
for  us.     That  story  is  well  known. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  had  nothing  to  do  with  it  yourself? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir ;  I  paid  him  after  I  got  out.  I  paid  my  share 
of  $5,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  Does  anybody  owe  you  any  money  today  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  the  farmer  owes  me  $5,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  Does  anybody  ow^e  you  sums  in  excess  of  $10,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Nobody  wdiatsoever? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  did  you  mean  by  saying  that  story  is  well 
known,  referring  to  Dillon  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  wfjs  iuA'estigated  hy  tlie  House  committee,  and  all 
that. 

Senator  Wiley.  Do  you  know  the  facts  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all  I  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  interest  in  any  other  business  since 
you  came  out  of  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  have  listed  all  the  stock  and  all  the  property 
that  you  had. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr,  Robinson.  What  interest  did  you  have  prior  to  the  time  that  you 
went  to  the  penitentiary  in  businesses  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  interest  whatsoever. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  have  any  interest  in  any  gambling 
establishments  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  at  any  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  receive  any  revenue  or  any  income  from 
any  gambling  establishments? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  mentioned  that  you  received  some  money  from 
gambling. 

Ml',  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir ;  my  own  gambling. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  receive  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  done  my  own  gambling. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Just  how  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  used  to  go  out  to  the  race  track.  Somebody  wants 
to  put  out  a  lot  of  money  and  somebody  wants  to  bet  $10,000  on  a  horse, 
and  if  he  put  it  in  the  totalizer,  naturally  the  price  go  down,  so  I  used 
to  hold  the  bet.     If  I  thought  it  was  all  right,  I  hold  it. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTEIRSTATE   COMMERCE  13 

INIr.  Robinson.  Were  you  a  betting  commissioner? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  No ;  I  was  betting  for  myself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  you  place  the  bets  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  With  myself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  handle  bets  for  anyone  else? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why,  sure.  No;  what  do  you  mean  by  anyone  else? 
You  mean  they  bet  with  me  ?     Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  bet  with  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A  lot  of  people  bet  with  me.  I  don't  recall.  That  is 
a  long  time  ago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Can  you  recall  anyone  of  the  larger  bettors  with 
you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  Al  Capone  was  one. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  I  didn't  have  many  of  those  people. 
A  lot  of  people  would  come.  There  is  a  lot  of  touts  come  around  and 
make  bets. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  he  the  only  one  you  can  remember  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  Frank  Erickson  ever  bet  with  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Frank  Costello  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson,  How^  large  a  sum  would  you  handle? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  would  handle  up  to  $1,000.  You  see,  Al  was  a  big 
bettor.  He  would  bet  $10,000  on  a  race,  and  $5,000,  but  he  would 
spread  it  around.    Sometimes  I  take  a  piece,  sometimes  I  don't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  large  a  sum  would  you  handle  in  gambling 
over  a  space  of  a  year  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  I  wouldn't  be  able  to  tell  you.  Them  days  are 
gone.    I  just  can't  remember. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  it  be  $2,000  or  $100,000  or  $50,000  or  what? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  mean  in  a  year? 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  a  year's  time. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Gee,  I  don't  know.  I  suppose  sometimes  I  would 
make  $100,000  a  year  or  something  like  that,  sometimes  less. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  would  make  that  much  clear  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Sure. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  would  you  handle? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wouldn't  know.    That  is  a  thing  that  I  don't  recall. 

The  Chairman.  A  million  dollars  or  two  million? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  not  a  million  dollars.  I  don't  know.  I  just  lost 
all  track  of  that  stuif.  After  all,  I  haven't  bothered  for  the  last  7  or  8 
years  with  that  stuff. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  handle  three  or  four  hundred  thousand 
dollars  during  the  course  of  a  year? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Between  losing  and  winning,  because  you  lose,  too, 
you  have  to  think  of  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  right. 

Mr,  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  It  goes  without  saying  that  if  you  made 
$100,000 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  way  I  used  to  do  it,  I  put  the  money  away,  and 
at  the  end  of  the  year  what  I  w4n,  I  win.    That  is  all. 


14  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  receive  any  other  income  from  anything 
else  except  from  gambling? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  that  is  all  I  made  my  money. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  have  any  interest  in  the  liquor  busi- 
ness ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  the  beer  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  At  no  time  did  you  ever  have  any  interest  or  receive 
any  income  from  the  sale  of  liquor  or  the  manufacture  of  liquor  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  When  did  you  come  to  this  country  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1920. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  ever  have  any  interest  in  the  white-slave 
trade  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  did  you  marry  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  married  a  girl,  a  home  girl. 

Senator  Wiley.  An  Italian? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Born  in  this  country  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  she  came  here  when  she  was  about  6  j^ears  old. 

Senator  Wiley.  Are  you  an  American  citizen  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  When  did  you  get  your  full  citizenship  papers? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  1927  or  1928. 

Senator  Wiley.  When  did  you  start  in  the  gambling  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  think  it  was  around,  the  heavy  part  was 
around  1929  or  so,  from  1929  on. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  you  a  relative  of  Al  Capone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  No  family  relationship  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  come  to  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1920. 

Mr.  Robinson.  T\Tiat  were  you  doing  at  that  time  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  working  with  the  Dandy  Theater.  There 
was  an  Italian  theater  in  the  street,  and  I  w^as  working  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  a  waiter  there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  that  was  a  theater,  Italian  theater.  Then  I  went 
to  work  at  the  Belanapoli  Restaurant.     That  is  an  Italian  restaurant. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  a  waiter  there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  was  day  manager  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  you  work  after  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  After  that  I  started  to  make  friends  and  I  started 
to  get  in  the  gambling  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  friends  did  you  make? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  fellows  that  gambled. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Name  some  of  them. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Al  used  to  come  there — Al  Capone,  and  Frank  Nitti. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who  else  ?    That  is  all  I  can  remember. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  make  the  acquaintance  of  Nitti? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  that  time. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  15 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  What  year  was  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1928  or  1929,  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  go  to  work  for  Nitti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  we  were  friends. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  ever  engaged  in  any  activity  with  Nitti, 
business  activities  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir ;  outside  of  being  friends. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  work  for  Capone  ? 

JNIr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  was  friends  with  Capone. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  were  you  taking  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  you  go.  You  go  into  this  stuff.  I  would  not 
be  able  to  tell,  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "WTiat  was  Nitti's  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Nitti?  Oh,  Nitti  had  money  of  his  own.  I  don't 
know.    He  was  never  in  need  of  any  money  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  A^Hiere  did  he  get  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  a  very  close  friend  of  his  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  a  very  close  friend,  I  mean  close  friend,  you 
know,  like  you  get  together. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  don't  know  where  he  got  his  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    Would  he  tell  me  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  knowledge  of  where  Nitti  got  any  of 
his  money  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  he  associated  with  Capone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  kind  of  related  to  Capone. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  was  Capone  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  know  Capone. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  You  tell  me. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AAliat  business  was  he  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  what  business  he  was  in.  All  I  know 
he  was  friends  with  me  at  the  time,  but  I  didn't  know  his  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  visit  back  and  forth  with  Capone? 

Mr.  DeLucla..  Yes ;  I  used  to  see  him  at  the  track. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  Nitti  ? 

[Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "V\nio  were  the  other  friends  you  made  at  that  time? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  are  so  many. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Name  some. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember.  Mv  mind  is  kind  of  hazy  on  that 
stuff. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  meet  Campagna  at  that  time. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  a  little  later  on. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  meet  Gioe  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  a  boy  from  the  neighborhood.  I  don't  re- 
member when.    I  know  a  lot  of  these  people. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wlien  did  you  first  meet  Tony  Accardo  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  a  boy  from  the  neighborhood  too.  He  is  now 
my  neighbor,  a  few  blocks  from  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  Tony  Accardo  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Over  10  years,  at  least. 


16  ORGAlSriZED    CRIMEi   IN    IIsTTERSTATE    COMMERCE  ' 

Mr.  Hallet,  Did  you  see  Tony  Accardo  when  he  came  to  jail  to 
visit? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  was  when  he  posed  as  a  lawyer? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  is  a  good  friend  of  yours  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  was  trying  to  work  on  yonr  parole,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Charles  Fischetti? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know  Charles  Fischetti  about  20  years  or  so. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Rocco  Fischetti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  known  him  20  years,  too  ? 

]\Ir.  DeLucia.  No  ;  less  than  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  about  15  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Maybe,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Ed  Vogel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Ed  Vogel. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  see  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  known  him  for  many  years,  haven't  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Jack  Guzik  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  For  a  long  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Ralph  Capone? 

]\Ir.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  known  him  for  a  long  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  bet  with  you,  too  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Hymie  Levine  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  he  a  good  friend  of  yours  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  but  he  is  sick  now.     He  is  paralyzed. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  Levine  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  10  or  12  years  or  15  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Tony  Pisano  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  the  same  time,  maybe  15  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Murray  Humphreys  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     All  these  people  I  know  to  see  them,  but  I 
have  never  had  anything  to  do  with  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  have  known  them  all  for  many  years. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Ralph  Pearce  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  17 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  known  him  for  many  years  ? 

IMr.  DeLucia.  I  have  known  Ralph  Pearce  for  10  or  15  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  of  those  people  have  you  had  any  kind 
of  business  dealing  with? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  never  had  any  business  dealing  with  any  of  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  any  of  them  bet  with  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  No,  not  them, 

Mr.  Halley.  How  about  Tony  Accardo,  do  you  have  any  business 
dealings  with  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

ISIr.  Halley.  Never  at  any  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Never, 

Mr.  Halley.  Does  that  include  betting  on  horse  races  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  he  never  bet  with  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  had  any  business  dealings  with  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley,  Do  you  know  Frank  Costello  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  Frank  Costello  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  have  known  Frank  Costello  for  a  long  time.  I 
haven't  seen  him  for  the  last  10  or  12  years. 

Mv.  Halley.  How  did  you  happen  to  meet  Frank  Costello  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  I  met  him  at  the  track. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  track? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  it  was  the  Hawthorne  track  here  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  go  out  to  Sportsman's  Park  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  used  to ;  not  now, 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Bill  Johnston  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr,  Halley.  Did  you  ever  know  Bill  Johnston  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr,  Halley.  Do  you  know  who  he  is  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr,  Halley,  Do  you  know  Eddy  O'Hare  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  John  Patton? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  John  Patton  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  would  say  at  least  20  years, 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  John  Patton  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  around  in  Florida  or  some  place  like  that. 

Mr,  Halley.  Where  in  Florida  did  you  see  him,  Miami  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Harry  Russell? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Ten  or  fifteen  years, 

Mr.  Halley.  Harry  Russell  is  in  the  betting  business  too,  isn't  he? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  I  heard  that  he  was. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  place  bets  with  Harry  Russell? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  Yes. 


18  ORGANIZED    CRIMEI  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  place  bets  with  him  or  he  with  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  had  a  commission  house  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wasn't  he  a  partner  of  Tony  Accardo  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  was  Harry  Kussell's  commission  house  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  State  and  Lake  Building. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  placed  bets  with  Harry  Russell  were  you 
laying  off  big  bets  or  were  you  betting  for  yourself  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  betting  for  myself. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  lay  off  with  Harry  Russell  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  it  depends  what  you  want  to  call  it.  I  used  to 
be  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  lay  off.  You  know  the  difference  between 
betting  for  yourself  and  laying  off. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  lay  off  bets  with  anybody  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  not  very  often. 

Mr.  Halley.  Ever? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  recall  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Not  even  once? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wouldn't  be  able  to  recall  that.    I  don't  recall  at  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  possible? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Maybe  sometime.     I  wouldn't  say  that  it  wasn't. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Joe  Adonis  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  met  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Meyer  Lansky  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  ever  arrested  with  Meyer  Lansky  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  with  Lucky. 

Mr.  Halley.  Lucky  Luciano? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  the  Congress  Hotel? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  were  you  doing  there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  in  the  lobby  and  I  ran  across  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  know  Lucky  Luciano  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  Lucky  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  would  say  about  15  years,  or  15  or  16  years,  some- 
thing like  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Jack  Dragna  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  met  him  in  California  on  one  of  my  trips.  I  ran 
across  him  in  the  restaurant. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  met  Jack  Dragna  once  in  your  life  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Once  or  twice,  something  like  that. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  19 

Mr.  Halley.  Which  is  it?     You  are  under  oath;  let  us  be  accurate. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Maybe  in  California  once  or  twice. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  go  to  his  home? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley,  What  restaurant  did  vou  see  Jack  Dragna  in? 

Mr.  DeLucia.     I  think  it  was  the  Brown  Derby.     I  am  not  sure. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  Los  Angeles  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Adamo  ?     They  call  him  MoMo. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  don't  know  him. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Big  Al  Polizzi  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Longy  Zwillman  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  Zwillman? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Zwillman. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Little  Augie  Pisano  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Maybe  you  know  him  by  the  name  of  Anthony 
Carfano. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  met  Carfano? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  You  see,  all  these  names  you  mention,  maybe 
I  see  them  some  day,  but  I  never  had  anything  to  do  with  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  Little  Augie  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  go  to  Florida,  where  do  you  stay? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  only  1  year  in  Florida,  1938.  I  had  a  house 
there. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  was  your  house,  Miami  Beach  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  go  to  the  Sands  Hotel  ? 

IVIr.  DeLucia.  No.' 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  go  to  Wofford  Hotel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Tom  Cassera  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  who  he  is  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Fred  Angersola  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Johnny  King? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  is  from  Cleveland. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  might  have  met  him.  I  don't  remember.  I  might 
have  met  him,  but  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Joe  Massei  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  From  Detroit  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 


20  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  He  is  in  Miami  now. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Yon  never  met  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Mike  Cappolo  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  yon  know  Tony  Civetta? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Willie  Moretti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Bugsy  Seigel? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bugsy  Seigel.  I  might  have  seen  him  at  the  track 
sometime.     I  never  had  much  to  do  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  did  know  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Mickey  Cohen  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No*^. 

Mr.  Halley.  Vincent  Mangano? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  lives  in  New  York. 

Mr.  Delucia.  What  is  his  name  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Mangano. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Philip  Mangano? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Joseph  Prof aci  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  him,  Joseph  Prof  aci? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  Joseph  Prof  aci  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  You  see,  all  these  names,  I  might  have  seen 
them  at  some  time  or  other,  but  I  didn't  have  anything  to  do  with 
them. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Vito  Genovese  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Willie  Moretti  ?  I  think  you  said  you 
didn't. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Michael  Morani  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  know  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  He  has  a  restaurant  in  New  York  I  used  to 
go  to. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  restaurant  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Somewhere  on  Fifty-second  Street. 

-Mr.  Halley.  What  is  the  name  of  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Progressivio. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  Fifty-sixth  Street  near  Seventh  Avenue? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     They  have  good  food  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  Morani  owns  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  ni}^  understanding. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  21 

• 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  did  you  meet  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  That  is  all.  I  used  to  go  and  eat  and  get  out  of 
there. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Jack  Dragna  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Italian-American  Protective 
League  ( 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  Unio  Siciliano  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  but  that  has  been  changed  to  either 

Mr.  Halley.  To  the  Italo-American  Union. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  changed  the  title.  I  was  a  member  there  when 
I  went  to  the  penitentiary.  But  since  then  I  never  paid  any  of  my 
dues.    That  is  another  insurance  I  had. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  the  Unio  Siciliano? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  was  a  society. 

jSIr.  Halley.  W^ere  you  an  officer  or  a  member  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  a  member. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  that  an  organization  in  Chicago  that  you  be- 
longed to? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  That  is  an  insurance  organization. 

Mr.  Halley.  An  insurance  organization? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Tell  the  committee  something  about  it.  Is  it  all  over 
the  country  or  just  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  it  is  only  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  think  it  is  only  in  Chicago  ? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  I  am  pretty  sure  of  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  else  belonged  to  the  union  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  When  I  was  there  Joe  Bulger  was  the  president,  Fer- 
rata  was  the  secretary  and  Cocia  was  somebody  else  there,  he  was 
treasurer  or  something  like  that.  I  had  myself  and  my  whole  family 
insured  there,  but  I  have  not  paid  any  more  since  I  came  out. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  there  a  place  where  you  had  meetings? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  there  is  no  meeting  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  were  the  headquarters  of  the  union? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  on  Washington  Street. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wliat  was  the  address? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Ill  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  belong  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes;  but  now  I  don't  belong.  I  haven't  paid  my 
dues. 

^Ir.  Halley.  Did  Tony  Accardo  belong  when  you  belonged  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  that. 
.  Mr.  Halley.  How  much  were  the  dues  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A  few  dollars  a  month  or  year. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  used  to  pay  for  everybodv.  I  think  it  was  about 
$100.  I  don't  know,  $120  a  year. 

]Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  for  everybody  in  your  family? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  they  ever  have  meetings  of  the  society  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  never  was  to  any. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  attended  a  meeting? 


22  ORGANIZED    CRLMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  have  a  lodge  and  each  lodge  once  in  a  while  will 
have  a  party  or  something.    That  is  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  there  a  lot  of  lodges  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.    They  have  about  40  or  50  lodges. 

Mr.  Halley.  Right  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Maybe  they  have  20.     I  don't  know  what  they  got. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  there  lodges  in  other  cities  besides  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  I  don't  think  they  have  them  outside 
of  Chicago. 

Mr.  Halley.  None  outside  of  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  say  it  is  called  the  Italo- American  Union? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     That  was  the  old  LTnio  Siciliano. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  it  is  still  there  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  it  is  still  on  Washington  Street  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  before  they  were  on  State  Street,  and  then  the 
building  was  torn  down  and  then  it  was  put  down  to  Washington 
Street. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now,  what  was  the  name  originally,  the  Union 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Siciliano. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  then  was  changed  to  the  Italo-^\jnerican  Union? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  was  the  name  changed  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wouldn't  know  how  to  tell  you  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  before  you  went  to  jail  or  after  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  My  understanding  was  that  because  they  call  it  Unio 
Siciliano  and  nobody  else  could  join  but  Sicilians,  so  they  figured  to 
change  the  name  and  get  everybody  else  in. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  got  out  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  got  in  when  it  was  Italo-American  Union.  I 
was  a  member  up  to  the  date  I  went  to  jail.  Then  I  didn't  pay  any 
more.     I  just  dropped  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  joined  it,  it  was  called  the  Italo-American 
Union  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  To  my  best  recollection,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  join? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  recall. 

Mr.  Halley.  Approximately  how  long  were  you  a  member  before 
you  went  to  jail? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  must  have  been  a  member  5  or  6  years  at  least, 

Mr.  Halley.  And  it  was  previous  to  your  becoming  a  member  that 
they  changed  the  name  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  when  I  became  a  member  it  was  Italo-x\meri- 
can  Union. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  before  that  was  the  name  changed  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  a  long  time.  I  don't  remember  that,  Mr. 
Halley. 

Mv.  Halley.  Would  you  say  sometime  in  the  1930's  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  a  matter  of  record.  You  can  find  out.  I 
don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  records  are  kept  at  the  office  on  Washington 
Street  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME    IK    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  23 

Mr.  H ALLEY.  Wlio  is  the  president  now  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bulger. 

Mr  Halley.  How  do  you  spellit  ? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  Joseph  I.  B-u-1-g-e-r. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  is  the  treasurer  now  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Why  did  you  get  out  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you.  ^Vlien  I  went  to  the  penitentiary  I  ]ust 
didn't  pay  any  more.     Some  of  these  days  I  might  go  back. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  whether  Joseph  Fischetti  belonged  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  whether  Rocco  Fischetti  belonged  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  . 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  have  a  list  of  the  members  ? 

Mr.  DeLucl\.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  see  a  list  of  the  members  ? 

Mr.  DeLucl4.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now,  when  you  first  joined,  who  talked  to  you  about 
joining? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  it  was  Joe  that  told  me  to  get  in,  Joe  Bulga. 
He  became  the  president,  or  something  like  that.  I  am  not  so  sure, 
but  I  think  that  is  what  it  was. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  Bulga  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  knew  Bulga  for  many  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  think  you  said  that  you  knew  Tony  Capiccio  for 
many  years,  too. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Rocco  De  Grazio  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  of  course,  you  know  Louis  Campagna  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  of  course  you  know  Charles  Gioe  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Niccolo  Impostato  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  From  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  don't  know  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  are  sure  you  never  heard  of  him  ?  Of  course  you 
know  Philip  D' Andrea  ?  He  went  to  jail  with  you  on  the  extortion 
case. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  your  position  that  you  were  not  guilty  in  the 
extortion  case  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  tried  to  extort  money  from  anybody  ? 

Mr.  DeLucl4.  No,  sir. 

]Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Sylvester  Agolin  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  laiow  Anthony  Antonelli  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who? 

Mr.  Halley.  Antonelli,  Tony  Antonelli. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Sam  Battaglia? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 


24  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  i 

Mr.  Halley,  What  were  the  advantages  of  joining  the  Unione 
Sicilian©? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you  it  was  just  insurance,  you  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  they  issue  a  policy,  an  insurance  policy  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  your  family? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  let  yours  drop  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  didn't  pay  any  more. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  Dragna  all  the  way  out 
in  California? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  knew  some  people  in  California,  and  that  is 
how  I  met  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Trans- America  Wire  Service? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  heard  about  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  have  anything  to  do  with  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  the  name  of  the  man  you  had  renting  your 
farm  when  you  were  in  jail? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Francis  Corri. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  have  anything  to  do  with  the  Trans- America? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  that  he  had  something  to  do  with  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  he  was  one  of  the  founders  of  the  Trans- 
America  Wire  Service. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Was  he? 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  not  one  of  the  founders  of  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  All  right.  Let  me  ask  just  one  question:  Is  this 
Unione  Siciliano  what  is  known  as  the  Mafia?  Was  that  called  the 
Mafia? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  Mafia  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  much  about  the  Mafia  beyond  the 
papers. 

The  Chairman.  Speak  out.  You  have  your  hand  before  your 
mouth. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  anything  about  the  Mafia. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  Mafia  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What  you  read  in  the  papers  is  all  I  know. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  is  this  Unione  Siciliano  sometimes  called 
the  Mafia?     Do  you  know  that,  or  not? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no ;  they  never  called  that  the  Mafia.  That  is  a 
society,  to  my  knowledge. 

The  Chairman.  Was  Al  Capone  a  member  of  the  Unione  Siciliano  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.     I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  Curry's  business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What? 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  James  Curry ;  what  business  was  he  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Curry  is  a  landowner.     He  had  a  farm. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  else  do  you  know  about  him?  What  other 
business  was  he  in  ?     Wasn't  he  in  the  gambling  business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  25 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  to  your  knowledge  was  he  in  the  gambling 
business  'i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  he  do  after  lie  left  your  place? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  I  didn't  see  him  any  more.  I  was 
told  not  to  see  him  any  more. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Who  told  you  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  my  parole  man  told  me.  You  see,  when  I  came 
out,  my  lease  with  him  expired  in  March,  the  next  March,  you  see.  So 
he  said  to  come  there  and  get  his  stuff,  and  he  was  around,  and  I  was 
told  that  I  shouldn't  have  anything  to  do  Avith  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  you  know  that  he  went  into  the  gambling 
business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo  ;  I  never  saw  him  any  more. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  mentioned  a  house  at  ]\Iiami  Beach.  When 
did  you  acquire  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia  I  didn't  buy  a  house  at  Miami  Beach  I  rented  it, 
for  a  year. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Oh,  you  rented  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  receive  visits  in  prison  from  Bernstein  ? 

]\Ir.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  appear  alone  the  first  time  he  visited  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  talk  to  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo;  I  didn't  talk  to  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  talk  to  liim  'i 

My.  DeLucia.  Xo. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  appear  again  with  Accardo? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  was  the  reason  why  Accardo  came ;  one  of  the 
reasons. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  talk  to  Bernstein  until  Accardo  came? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

ISIi;.  Robinson.  Why  was  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because  I  didn't  know  Bernstein,  and  I  wasn't  going 
to  talk  over  any  tax  matter  with  him  unless  I  found  out  what  was  the 
trouble.    I  didn't  know  there  was  any  trouble  anyway. 

So  he  came  over  and  said  things  were  kind  of  upset,  and  all  that. 
He  was  a  good  tax  lawyer,  and  I  talked  to  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Had  you  retained  Bernstein  ? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  3^011  retain  Bernstein  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  My  Mrs.  retained  Bernstein. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who? 

]Mr.  DeLucia,  My  wife. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  asked  Bernstein  to  go  to  see  you  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  refused  to  talk  to  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  were  you,  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  Leavenworth. 

Senator  Wiley.  Were  you  at  any  other  prison  before  that  ? 

68858 — 51— pt.  5- 3 


26  ORGANIZED    CRIMB  IN   INTEESTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  in  Atlanta. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  did  you  get  transferred?  Who  arranged 
for  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  I  don't  know.    I  was  just  transferred. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  pay  anyone  for  that  transfer  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Why  did  you  tell  Bernstein  you  wouldn't  talk 
to  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  didn't  want  to  talk  to  nobody  about  my  tax.  I  was 
in  iail,  and  I  figured  I  don't  care  what  happens. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  tell  him  to  see  Accardo? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no.  He  naturally  went.  back.  He  figured  he 
would  get  somebody  and  talk  to  Paul  and  make  me  understand  the 
seriousness  of  the  affair,  and  that  was  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  the  reason  Accardo  came  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  tell  him  to  bring  Accardo  down  to  vouch 
for  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  this  story  about  this  fine  getting  paid,  and 
he  did  not  know  about  it  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  did  have  some  income-tax  difficulty  at  one 
time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  the  year  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  up  until  1939,  I  think,  or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  that  was  in  the  process  of  settlement  or  nego- 
tiation with  the  Government  up  until  the  time  you  were  in  prison; 
or  out  of  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  that  came  out  of  trial.  After  the  sentence  they 
brought  that  up,  you  see.  And  they  wanted  to  get  income  tax  on 
that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  had  certain  penalties  to  pay? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  how  much  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  that  is  a  matter  in  the  Tax  Court.  That  is  all 
settled  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  was  the  payment  made? 

The  Chairman.  How  much  was  it?  You  know  about  how  much 
it  was.     How  much  did  you  owe  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  think  they  charged  me  $300,000,  or  something 
like  that,  that  I  owed  them. 

Senator  Kefauver.  And  was  a  settlement  agTeed  on  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  settlement  was  $40,000  or  $50,000  or  something 
like  that. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $40,000  or  $50,000. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  was  your  lawyer  then?     Bernstein? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bernstein. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  did  you  pay  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  my  Mrs.  gave  me  some  money.  I  have  some 
money  there  that  I  got  when  I  came  out. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'  IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  27 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  give  Bernstein  any  money  to  pay  that 
settlement  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  it  paid  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  was  paid  all  right.  I  was  in  jail.  How  could 
I  give  it  to  him  ? 

J\Ir.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  instruct  anyone  to  pay  Bernstein 
so  he  could  make  payment  in  settlement  ? 
•    Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  how  M-as  it  paid  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  somebody,  I  understand,  brought  some  money 
up  to  Bernstein  and  said,  "Pay  this." 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  money  did  they  bring  to  Bernstein? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  would  bring  up  $20,000  sometime  and  $30,000 
sometime.     I  don't  know  how  much  it  was. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  people  brought  it  to  Bernstein? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.     I  suppose  a  few  people. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  you  ever  discuss  it  with  Bernstein  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  knew,  but  I  don't  i-emember  now. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Bernstein  say  who  brought  the  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  said  how  many  people  were  there,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  people  were  there?  What  did  he  tell 
you  i     What  did  Bernstein  tell  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  said  a  few  people  went  over  there  and  brought 
him  the  money.  So  I  don't  know  how  many,  three,  four,  or  five.  I 
don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Bernstein  tell  you  who  they  were? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

^Ir.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  find  out  who  they  were? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  make  any  eflfort  to  find  out  who  they 
were  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why,  I  would  be  glad  to  find  out  who  did  that  for 
me. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  suspect  who  it  was? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  didn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  suspect  that  Accardo  paid  the  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  was  this?  A  hundred  thousand  dol- 
lars?    That  they  left  on  Bernstein's  desk? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     I  understand  it  was  about  $120,000. 

Senator  Hunt.  Let  me  ask  a  question.  This  is  a  tax  payment  that 
we  are  speaking  about  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  think,  Senator,  it  was  a  compromise  settlement, 
if  I  recall. 

Senator  Hunt.  That  somebody  paid  in  his  behalf? 

Mr.  R(jBiNSON.  Yes.  Somebody  came  to  Bernstein's  office,  or  several 
people,  and  gave  the  money  to  Bernstein. 

Senator  Hunt.  Now,  you  do  not  mean  to  tell  us  that  you  do  not  know 
who  contributed  that  money  to  pay  your  tax.  You  are  not  telling 
us  that,  are  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  will  tell  you  why.  Senator.  I  thought  I  probably 
would  find  after  we  came  out  there  wouldn't  be  so  much  publicity  at- 


28  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

taclied  to  the  parole.  But  all  the  publicity  did  come,  and  it  was  better 
to  lose  the  money,  to  my  way  of  thinking,  than  to  get  the  publicity  in 
the  paper  and  all  that. 

Senator  Hunt.  Now,  it  was  either  some  of  your  relatives  or  some 
of  your  business  associates? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Hunt.  Was  it  some  of  your  business  associates  that  paid 
the  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Hunt.  Now- ,  Jim  Jones  who  does  not  know  you  would  not 
kick  in  with  $50,000  to  pay  your  taxes. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose  a  friend  did. 

Senator  Hunt.  You  know  who  it  was.    Why  do  you  not  tell  us? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  don't  know,  Senator. 

Senator  Wiley.  May  I  also  see  if  w^e  have  not  got  confused  here  ? 

There  was  this  trial,  and  there  was  the  fine. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  fine  was  paid. 

Senator  Wiley.  $110,000.    Then  there  was  also  your  tax  settlement. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  And  you  are  saying  to  this  committee  that  in  the 
case  of  the  fine  you  do  not  know^  who  paid  your  fine  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know  who  paid  the  fine.    The  fine  was  $10,000.    It 
was  paid  in  New  York. 

Senator  Wiley.  $110,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  $10,000.    That  is  a  different  story.    The  fine  w^as 
paid  in  New  York. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  was  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $10,000.    But  the  other  stuff  is  the  income  tax. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  paid  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  fine  Bulga  took  care  of  when  we  left  some  money 
with  him,  you  see.    He  was  the  lawyer  on  the  trial. 

The  Chairman.  Who  was  that  that  paid  at  the  trial  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bulga. 

The  Chairman.  That  same  man  who  was  president  of  the  Italian- 
American  League  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    But  we  gave  him  the  money. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  he  the  man  Avhose  name  was  used  by  Accardo? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  he  visited  you  in  prison? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.     Their  initials  were  equal;  G.  O.  B; 
for  one  and  G.  O.  B.  the  other  one.    That  is  what  it  w^as. 

Senator  Wiley.  Was  that  the  one  you  were  talking  about,  about 
only  $10,000  fine  and  10  years? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  That  was  the  time  you  had  10  years,  and  you  had  to 
pay  the  $10,000  fine? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    The  tax  settlement  is  different. 
Senator  Wiley.  When  you  got  mixed  up  with  your  tax  settlement, 
you  paid  how  much,  approximately? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  paid  $120,000, 1  think. 

Senator  Wiley.  $120,000.    And  you  do  not  know  who  paid  that? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  not  yet. 
Senator  Wiley.  What  is  that? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  so  far. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  29 

Senator  Hunt.  When  was  that  paid?    What  year? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  in  '46. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  had  the  money  with  which  to  pay  it,  yourself. 

Mr.  Dp:Lucia.  No,  I  won't  tell  anybody  I  had  the  money,  to  tell  you 
the  truth. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  did  you  have  the  money,  and  could  you  have 
paid  it  yourself  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  could  have  paid  it. 

Senator  Hunt.  Have  3^011  reimbursed  those  people  who  paid  vour 
tax  ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir.  Sometime  I  reimburse.  Some  day  they  come 
along,  and  I  reimburse. 

Senator  Wiley.  Do  3'ou  have  any  connection  with  any  political  fac- 
tion in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  Are  you  sure?    Did  you  know  a  Jack  Arvey? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  heard  of  him. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  bringing  one 
way  or  the  other  the  Italian  vote? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley,  Did  you  vote? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    How  could  I  vote  ? 

Senator  Wiley.  Never  did  vote  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  Never  went  to  the  polls? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  if  I  went  to  the  polls  before.  But  not 
lately. 

Senator  Wiley.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson,  Who  took  care  of  your  interests  while  you  were 
in  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  mean  at  the  farm  ?    Corri, 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  your  other  interests  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  had  no  other  interests. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  it  true  that  Accardo  took  care  of  your  interests 
while  you  were  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no, 

Mr.  RoBixsoN.  Isn't  it  true  that  you  asked  him  to  look  out  for 
your  interests  while  you  were  in  prison? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Generally  speaking;  I  don't  mean  to  run  the  place, 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Why  did  Accardo  come  to  visit  you  in  prison? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  a  friend  of  mine.  He  was  my  neighbor,  and 
he  came.    And  it  was  a  friendly  act.    That  is  all, 

Mr,  Robinson.  Didn't  he  tell  you  at  the  time  that  it  was  all  right 
for  you  to  talk  to  Bernstein  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  he  advised  me  to  talk  to  Bernstein,  or  else 
tilings  was  going  to  be  bad,  and  they  were  going  to  charge  me  a  lot 
of  money,  and  that  way  the  thing  could  be  settled. 

The  Chairman,  Now,  Mr.  DeLucia,  we  do  not  think  you  are  tell- 
ing the  truth.  We  think  vou  are  connnitting  perjury  about  not 
knowing  who  paid  that  $120'000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  am  telling  the  truth. 


30  ORGANIZED    CRIMEI  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  I  know  you  do  not  want  to  get  into  any  more 
trouble.    You  had  better  come  clean  if  you  know  who  paid  it. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  who  paid  that  money,  Senator.  Truth- 
fully, I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  You  do  not  have  any  idea  who  paid  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Remember ;  you  are  under  oath. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  And  $120,000  got  laid  on  Mr.  Bernstein's  de.sk  in 
cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  what  Bernstein  said.  I  was  in  jail  at  that 
time.  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  He  has  not  told  you  who  it  was  that  put  the 
money  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  says  he  doesn't  know  himself. 

The  Chairman.  He  says  he  does  not  know  himself? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Hunt.  How  did  he  laiow  what  the  money  was  for  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  this  money  was  Paul,  and  this  money  was 
Louie,  the  note  said. 

Senator  Hunt.  Was  it  typewritten,  or  handwritten  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wasn't  there.  Senator.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  me  ask  you  this:  Did  Bernstein  talk  to  you 
before  he  paid  the  money  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Oh,  Bernstein  came  there  several  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Bernstein  come  to  you  and  state  that  this 
money  had  been  left  with  him,  and  ask  if  he  should  use  it  for  pay- 
ment of  the  tax  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  when  he  came  back  he  said,  "The  money  is  all 
paid.    The  bill  is  all  settled." 

Mr.  Robinson.  But  he  never  asked  you  whether  it  was  all  right 
with  you  to  use  that  money  to  pay  the  tax  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  because  the  way  it  happened,  he  got  the  money 
today,  and  tomorrow  he  would  pay.  He  wasn't  going  to  keep  the 
money  around  him. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  ask  Bernstein  who  put  up  the  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  he  said  he  didn't  know. 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  any  idea  who  would  advance  that 
amount  of  money  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  have  friends  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Let  us  get  at  that.  Who  are  your  friends  that  can 
put  up  $120,000  and  never  even  tell  you  that  they  have  done  so  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  will  do  the  same  thing  for  somebody  in  jail  tomor- 
row, if  it  is  my  friend,  Senator. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  would  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  But  the  question  is,  Wlio  are  your  friends  that 
would  do  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  any  friend  that  I  think  deserved  it,  I  would 
do  it  for.    I  would  even  sell  my  house. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  influential  friends  did  you  have  at  that  time 
or  have  you  got  that  would  raise  $120,000  and  plunk  it  down  without 


ORG.\NIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  31 

askin<r  an  accounting  from  you  or  an  lOU?  Did  you  give  anyone  a 
note  for  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  not  think  that  was  a  queer  circumstance, 
that  some  one  should  put  down  $120,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know,  Senator.    But  that  is  how  it  happened.  ^ 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  have  any  connection  with  any  organization 
that  you  had  a  hold  on  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  mean  to  say  that  out  of  the  clear  sky  this  hap- 
pened and  no  one  owed  you  an  obligation  or  no  one  was  fearful  of  you, 
that  would  come  in  and  plunk  down  $120,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  how  it  happened,  Senator. 

Senator  Wiley.  After  you  found  out,  did  you  not  snoop  around  and 
try  to  find  out  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  still  trying  now. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  are  still  trying? 

]Mr.  DdLucia.  Yes.  .    ^i  .         c 

Senator  Wiley.  Do  you  know  any  of  the  big  shots  m  Chicago  i 

Mv.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  what  you  mean  by  big  shots. 

Senator  Wiley.  Any  of  the  influential  politicians,  one  way  or  an- 
other, on  either  side  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  mix  with  politics. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  is  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  mix  with  politics. 

Senator  Wiley.  Well,  when  you  were  talking  a  little  while  ago 
about  the  national  bank,  did  you  mean  the  Forest  Park  National  Bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  That  was  when  I  started.  Then  I  changed  it 
to  the  Northland  Trust. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  was  Mr.  Felicio  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  is  my  neighbor. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  has  liquor  stores. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  jou  have  any  interest  in  those  stores? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr  Robinson.  How  large  a  home  does  he  have  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  he  has  a  home  about  as  big  as  mine,  or  something 

similar  to  mine.  x^i     i  _9 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  he  been  involved  m  violations  ot  the  law « 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  that  I  know  of. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Who  have  some  of  your  associates  been  since  you 

got  out  on  parole  ?  ^       n     e  •  i. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  since  I  got  out  on  parole,  all  of  my  associates 
have  been  my  relations.  My  wife  has  four  or  five  brothers.  And  I 
have  been  at  the  farm.    That  is  about  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Accardo  visit  you  at  the  farm? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Wlio  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Accardo. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  talk  to  him  on  the  phone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir.  ,  .       •  -u 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  never  seen  or  talked  to  him  since  you  have 
been  on  parole? 


32  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Let  me  explain  that  about  "on  the  phone."  My  boy 
and  his  boy  ^o  to  the  same  schooL  Maybe  you  have  some  call  from  my 
liouse  to  his  house.  That  is  the  boys' calling.  I  have  nothing  to  do 
with  it.    And  I  can  stop  the  boy. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Have  you  ever  talked  to  Accardo  on  the  phone  at  any 
time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    I  saw  him  at  the  trial.    That  is  all. 
Mr.  Robinson.  I  mean  since  you  have  been  out  on  parole. 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Robinson.  All  right.    Who  else  have  you  seen? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  has  been  out  to  your  house  in  the  last  few 
days  ? 

^Ir.  DeLucia.  Well,  nobody  has  been  out  to  my  house.  I  have  been 
at  the  farm. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  had  no  visits  from  anj^one  in  the  last  few 
days  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    I  was  at  the  farm.    No  one  outside  the  f ajiiilies. 
Mr.  Robinson.  At  the  farm? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  has  been  there  to  see  you  in  the  last  few  days? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Nobody  that  amounts  to  anything.    My  brother-in- 
law  and  some  friends,  lady  friends;  that  is  all. 
Senator  Wiley.  Lady  friends,  you  say? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  mean  lady  friends  of  my  wife. 
Mr.  Halley.  I  have  been  looking  at  your  income  tax  returns,  Mr. 
DeLucia.    I  gather  that  in  19J:9  you  lost  money  on  your  farm.    Is 
that  right  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why.  sure.    I  lost  money  every  year. 
Mr.  Halley.  And  the  farm  is  the  only  business  you  have  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 
Mr.  Halle.  Is  that  correct  ? 
Mr,  DeLucia,  Yes, 

Mr.  Halle.  Have  you  put  up  that  farm  for  sale  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  I  don't  want  to  i)ut  up  that  farm  for  sale 
unless  I  have  to.  You  see,  I  inquired  around,  but  the  farm  is  too  big 
to  sell.  It  would  be  five  or  six  hundred  thousand  dollars.  I  will  tell 
you  this  much.  If  next  year — with  all  this  improvement,  now,  I  think 
I  should  start  to  make  money  now,  you  see.  But  if  I  don't,  I  will 
split  the  farm  up  and  try  to  sell  it. 

Mr.  Halley,  The  fact  is  that  up  to  this  time  you  have  had  no  income 
from  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  have  s})ent  money  on  improvements,  you  see. 
Mr.  Halley.  You  have  spent  more  than  you  have  made? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  built  a  barn  there,  and  all  that, 
Mr.  Halley.  And  you  still  have  a  large  house  in  River  Forest :  is 
that  right?  ' 

Ml'.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Haixey.  What  did  you  pay  for  that  house  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  $25,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  would  vou  say  its  value  is  today  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  about  $100,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  have  another  country  place;  is  that  rioht? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  in  Lone:  Beach.  * 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  33 

Mr.  Halley.  And  what  would  you  say  your  annual  living  expenses 
are.  with  all  these  expensive  homes  you  maintain? 

]\Ir.  DfXucia.  About  a  couple  of  thousand  dollars  a  month. 

IVIr.  Halley.  About  a  couple  of  thousand  dollars  a  month.  You  are 
not  beginning  to  worry  about  the  fact  that  your  assets  are  going  down, 
are  yon  ? 

Mr.  DeLucl\.  I  am.  I  tried  to  sell  my  house  on  Long  Beach,  and  I 
couldn't  sell  it,  and  I  think  next  year,  if  I  can't  make  it  up,  I  will 
sell  my  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  haven't  begun  economizing  at  all,  have  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  will.  I  will  start  to  do  the  best  I  can  from  now  on, 
on  that.  I  won't  have  to  economize  any  more,  because  there  won't  be 
much  expense  at  the  farm.  I  have  those  bulldozers,  and  I  can  made  30 
or  40  thousands  dollars  a  year  at  the  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  made  $42,000  last  year,  didn't  you  ? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     And  everything  is  built  now. 

Mr.  Haixey.  You  can't  take  off  what  you  built  on  your  depreciation. 
You  were  spending  capital,  weren't  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now  you  capital  is  down  to  about  $40,000  in  cash? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mv.  Halley.  And  you  say  you  have  about  $11,000  in  stock? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  how  much  in  the  bank  ? 

Air.  DeLucia.  Oh,  about  a  thousand  dollars  in  the  bank. 

Mr.  Halley.  A  thousand  dollars  in  the  bank? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  troubling  me  is  that  you  are  not  acting  like 
a  man  who  is  down  to  your  last  $50,000.  I  notice  by  your  books  that 
you  bought  a  Cadillac  last  month. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  If  you  see  the  book,  you  will  notice  I  sold  my  other 
Cadillac. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  paid  something  over  $4,000  for  a  new  one? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  see,  a  car  lasts  me  about  3  years,  3  or  4  years. 

]VIr.  Halley.  Who  drives  your  car? 

IVIr,  DeLucia.  Myself. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  people  do  you  have  on  j^our  payroll  at  the 
farm? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Over  there  you  have  them  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  your  recollection  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  in  the  wintertime  you  can  get  along  with  three 
or  four.  In  the  summertime,  during  the  hay  season  and  during  the 
summer  generally,  five  or  six,  just  for  a  few  days  or  for  a  few  weeks. 

Senator  Wiley.  I  might  say  for  the  record,  here,  that  his  1950  state- 
ment shows  assets  of  $390,000,  and  he  has  here  notes  payable  of  $625, 
mortgage  payable  of  $10,000,  loan  payable,  mortgage.  Long  Beach 
property,  $40,000,  and  mortgage  payable,  Prudential  Insurance  Co.  of 
America,  $84,000.  That  seems  to  be  all  that  you  owe,  there,  I  take  it. 
And  it  is  interesting  to  note  that  he  lists  his  land  at  $18,000.  He  built 
a  new  barn  for  $81,000. 

AVhat  year  did  you  build  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  i948, 1  think. 


34  ORGANIZED    CRIME'  IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Senator  Wiley.  You  built  an  $81,000  barn  in  1948.  Was  that  the 
time  you  took  the  mortgage  in  the  Prudential  Co.  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  that  was  when  I  bought  that 

Senator  Wiley.  When  you  got  tractors,  wagons,  implements,  ma- 
chinery, for  $44,000  ?  '       to       5       r  ,      O' 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  see,  that  is  a  big  farm,  Senator.  It  takes  a  lot 
of  equipment,  and  all  that. 

Mr,  Robinson.  Did  you  know  John  Rosselli  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  would  say  about  15  or  16  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucl^.  I  don't  know  what  business  he  is  in. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  never  found  out  what  business  he  is  in? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  never  knew  what  business  he  was  in? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  R0BIN8ON.  What  was  your  association  with  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  knew  Johnny  in  Chicago  a  couple  of  times,  and 
that  was  all.    I  knew  he  was  in  California,  and  that  was  all 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  meet  Nitti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember,  Senator.    It  was  in  the  twenties 

Mr.  Robinson.  Weren't  you  working  as  a  waiter  at  the  time? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  never  worked  as  a  waiter.  If  you  want  to 
Vr^  ^^  ^°^'  waiter,  that  is  all  right.    I  was  manager  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  manager  of  the  restaurant? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  it  was  at  that  time  that  you  met  Nitti « 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  think  I  met  Nitti  when'l  had  a  restaurant  of 
my  own. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  anyway,  did  Nitti  get  a  job  for  you  at  the 
Lexington  Hotel? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  have  any  job  at  the  Lexington  Hotel? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  live  at  the  Lexington  Hotel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else  lived  at  the  Lexington  Hotel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A1  was  living  there  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  Nitti  living  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  think  he  had  a  home. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  can't  remember  anyone  else  except  Al  Capone 
who  lived  at  the  Lexington  Hotel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  visit  frequently  with  Nitti  and  Al  Capone  I 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  work  for  them  in  any  way?  Did  you  do 
any  jobs  for  them? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  never  worked  for  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  knew  what  business  they  were  in? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  know  the  business.  My  idea  of  business  with 
them  was  to  try  to  make  some  money.    That  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Tell  me  how? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Their  business  was  theirs,  and  not  mine. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEA   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMENCE  35 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Go  ahead  and  describe  how  you  made  the  money. 
Mr.  DeLucia.  By  gambling.  ^  -...-,.■,     v  u     •         a 

Mr.  RoBiNSOX.  And  you  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  liquor  business  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  x  xv  4. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Weren't  they  in  the  illegal  liquor  business  at  that 

time? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  suppose ;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  that,  don't  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  don't  know  anything  about  that,  ihey  didn  t 
go  ahead  and  tell  me  what  they  were  doing. 

Mr.  Robinson.  They  never  mentioned  anything  to  you  about  what 

they  were  doing?  ,     -,  ^       ,         xv 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  Senator.     I  never  asked  for  those  things. 

Mr.  Robinson.  But  you  were  frequently  associated  with  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  . 

Mr.  Robinson.  Thev  never  talked  about  their  business  to  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sn- ;  not  that  kind  of  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  what  kind  of  business  did  they  talk  about? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  the  gambling,  you  see;  the  horses  and  all  that 
stuff :  baseball  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  got  a  cut  of  the  liquor  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  None  whatsoever? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  your  income  from  1940  to  1943  i     Can  you 

recall? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  very  small.     You  mean,  1940  to  1943? 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh.  I  thought  you  meant  1943  to  1947.  I  would  say 
about  $300,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  was  your  net  income  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

:Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  your  net  income  ?  Can  you  recall  approx- 
imately what  your  net  income  was,  from  1940  to  1943,  annually? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  recall  that.  It  is  all  a  matter  of  fact.  You 
can  see  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  over  $50,000  a  year? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  recall  that,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  HALLET.,Well,  you  would  know  whether  it  was  more  than 
$50,000  or  less  than  $50,000  a  year.     In  what  range  was  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wouldn't  be  able  to  tell. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  you  can  tell.  Were  you  a  $10,000-a-y6ar  man, 
or  a  $50,000-a-year  man.  or  a  $100,000-a-year  man? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     I  had  a  lot  of  expenses  in  those  years,  too. 

The  Chairman.  What  expenses  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  have  expense  ?  Wliat  expense  did  you 
have? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  expense  all  around,  I  suppose,  I  don't  remember. 
If  I  had  those  papers,  I  could  tell. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  you  lived  well. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  that  is  part  of  your  income. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 


36  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  say  you  spent  over  $50,000  a  year  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  sure,  I  did. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Then  you  must  have  earned  over  $50,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  sure. 

The  Chairman.  He  said  he  earned  $300,000  those  3  years. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Around  that,  or  maybe  TO.  That  is  the  best  of  my 
recollection.     I  don't  know  for  sure. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  years  was  it  that  you  paid  the  tax  penalty 
for  ?     What  years  were  those  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  '46. 

Senator  Wiley.  Just  1  year  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  you  mean  what  year  that  was?  No:  that  was 
back  in  '39. 

Senator  Wiley.  1939  to  what  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  '34  to  '39.     I  don't  recall  it. 

Senator  Wiley.  Let's  get  that.  So,  when  the  $120,000  was  paid, 
that  paid  the  tax  penalties  accumulated 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  $100,000  was  between  me  and  Campagna. 

Senator  Wiley.  Was  that  what  it  was  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  BetAveen  me  and  Campagna.  That  was  the  settle- 
ment for  both  of  us. 

The  Chairman.  You  say  that  also  settled  Louie  Campagna's  tax 
case  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  What  I  was  more  interested  in  was  this  fact.  You 
settled  your  taxes  up  then  to  '39  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  To  '43. 

Senator  Wiley.  Well,  let's  get  it.     From  '39  to  '43  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Up  to  '43  everything  is  settled. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  are  sure  of  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Wiley.  That  is  what  that  $120,000  is  for? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right,  for  me  and  Campagna. 

Senator  Wiley.  All  right.  Now,  when  you  came  out  of  prison  on 
your  parole,  how  much  cash  did  you  have? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $300,000. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  had  $300,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  And  you  had  that  in  your  home? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     ' 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  a  statement  any  ijlace  showing  what  your 
assets  were  then  ?  ^  i  &  j 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Senator  Wiley.  Why  not? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A^lio  would  I  have  to  show  it  to?  Nobody  asked 
me  for  it. 

Senator  Wiley.  No;  I  am  asking  you.  This  doesn't  show.  If  this 
particular  book  would  show  your  assets  from  yeai-  to  year,  if  we  started 
at  the  time  you  came  out  in  '43,  it  should  show,  if  what  you  say  is  true, 
as  you  liave  set  it  up  here,  what  constitutes  your  estate. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  you  know  now. 

Senator  Wiley.  I  know  now,  sure. 

JNIr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  think  anybody  is  going  to  tell  anybody  how 
much  money  he  has  got,  Senator.  ^ 


I  ^'  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IX    INTERSTATE    COJVIMERCE  37 

Senator  Wiley.  Have  you  any  statement  to  show  what  became  of 
that  $300,000  > 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  there. 

Senator  Wiley.  Can  you  break  it  down  for  lis?  n     i    ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  it  is.  It  is  all  broke  down.  1  ou  can  tell  what 
I  have  got.    I  use  some  of  the  money  in  there. 

Senator  Wiley.  Then  if  we  start  in  whh  cash  on  hand  m  194 <,  you 
have  i<^:300.000,  plus  vour  earninos  from  the  farm,  plus  your  earnings 
from  ihe  bank  stock.    That  constitutes  your  total  income  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Senator  Wiley.  xVll  right.  Now,  you  say  it  costs  you  $2,000  a 
month  to  live,  for  your  family  at  least.  „  .     .    i        ..        ^i    . 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Approximately  that.  Over  all  it  is  less  than  that. 
But  I  would  put  it  at  $2,000.  ,        ti 

Senator  Wiley.  All  right.  Now.  then,  what  other  disbursements 
have  you  made  out  of  that  $300,000  for  capital  investment  since  194 <  i 

Mr'.  DeLucia.  Nothing  else. 

Senator  Wiley.  No,  no.  You  do  not  get  me.  As  I  understood  you 
to  say,  vou  built  that  big  barn  back  there  before  194:7  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  '48.     How  could  I  build  it  before  '4<  ?     I  came 

out  in  '4T.  o    -,      ^  •  1       i-     -c  ^1 

Senator  Wiley.  Then  the  cost  of  the  barn  was  paid  out  ol  the 

$300,000^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  ,.      t,  .   tt 

Senator  Wiley.  All  right.  What  other  big  disbursement  did  you 
make  out  of  that  $300,000  ?  .  ^    „    i    .     -d  . 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  bought  the  machinery  rig,  and  all  that.  But 
I  pay  that  in  a  year  on  a  monthly  loan.  i     .    . 

Senator  Wiley.  Did  you  make  any  substantial  loan  from  anybody  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Who  ?  ^  i      <•  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  have  a  mortgage  on  the  farm,  on  the  farm  and 
on  the  house. 

Senator  Wiley.  You  borrowed  that  money,  then,  too  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  borrowed  it,  yes. 

Senator  Wiley.  Well,  if  you  had  the  $300,000,  why  did  you  bor- 
row that  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because,  Senator,  I  have  a  long  time  to  go.  1  have 
3  more  years  to  go  on  parole.  And  at  the  rate  I  am  going,  I  have 
to  come'out  some  time  and  borrow  money.     So  I  might  as  well  pre- 

T)are  myself.  .     i  •        tj-  u 

•  Senator  Wiley.  What  I  am  trying  to  find  out  is  this.  It  you  bor- 
rowed that  money,  it  could  easily  be  ascertained  when  that  was  insti- 
tuted. That  $84,000  is  one.  That  is  the  large  one.  And  $40,000 
is  the  other.  If  you  borrowed  that  since  1947,  you  came  out  m  '47 
with  $300,000  in  cash.  Just  why  would  anybody  want  to  borrow 
all  this  money,  if  you  had  the  money  on  hand  ? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  "^Because  I  have  6  years  to  go,  Senator,  and  at  the 
rate  I  am  going,  I  am  not  going  to  make  it.  And  I  can  see  now  that 
next  year  I  may  have  to  sell  the  farm. 

Senator  Wiley.  Well,  you  were  telling  us  that  you  made  $40,000 
a  year  otf  of  the  farm,  and  that  you  used  some  of  that  money. 
■^IVIr.  DeLucia.  Well,  this  year  looks  bad.     The  corn  looks  bad. 


38  ORGANIZED    CRIMEl  EST   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Senator  Wiley.  I  agree  with  the  chairman  that  some  of  your  testi- 
mony does  not  make  sense.     I  do  not  want  to  prejudge  anybody. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  tell  you  the  truth  the  best  I  know  how, 
Senator. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  James  Missio  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Wlio? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Missio,  Missio — M-i-s-s-i-o. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  heard  of  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Steve  Cif  oni  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  is  he  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  he  died  about  10  years  ago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  About  how  long  did  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  my  neighbor.  He  had  a  house  next  to  me  at 
Long  Beach. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  was  he  an  associate  of  Al  Capone  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.     He  knew  him. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  long  has  Bernstein  kept  your  books  for  you  ? 
How  many  years  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  since  he  took  over,  I  suppose  around  '45  or  '46. 

Senator  Wiley.  All  right.  In  '48,  he  started  to  set  up  each  year  a 
balance  sheet,  I  take  it,  just  like  this  has  been  set  up  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Senator  Wiley.  And  you  claim  that  you  have  not  got  those  '45,  '46, 
'47,  '48 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  isn't  much  in  '49. 

Senator  Wiley.  Now,  just  a  minute.  You  have  not  got  those  bal- 
ance sheets  any  place? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  You  know,  Senator,  I  don't  even  know  if  I 
destroyed  it  all.  I  went  to  look  all  over,  yesterday,  to  see  if  I  could 
find  it,  and  I  couldn't  find  it  any  place. 

Senator  Wiley.  Well,  I  think  you  have  another  tax  case  here  to  be 
looked  into,  very  definitely.  I  do  not  think  you  want  your  com- 
promises around- 

If  they  owe  a  lot  of  money  they  can  get  rid  of  it.  What  did  they 
claim,  that  you  and  the  other  chap  owed  $350,000  ?  How  much  did 
you  settle  your  judgment  for  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  $50,000. 

Senator  Wiley.  How  much  was  the  judgment? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  the  judgment  was  aromid  $280,000,  or  some- 
thing like  that. 

Senator  Wiley.  Well,  there  you  have  got  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  did  you  say  you  knew  Cifoni  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  knew  Cifoni  for  quite  a  while. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  what  did  he  do  in  Cicero  ?  What  was  his  work 
in  Cicero  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  what  he  was  doing  in  Cicero. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  he  have  charge  of  the  alcohol  cookers  in 
Cicero  for  Capone  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  39 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  hear  rumors  about  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  work  for  you  after  repeal  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     He  never  worked  for  me  before. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  never  worked  for  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  he  associated  with  the  elevators  union? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that. 

Mr,  Robinson.  You  don't  know  whether  he  was  ever  associated 
with  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  happened  to  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  got  killed. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Aiuppa  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  I  do,  but  not  to  any  extent. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  does  he  do? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.    I  just  know  him  by  sight. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  he  a  friend  of  Campagna's  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr,  Robinson,  Wasn't  he  put  into  the  bartenders'  union  by  you  and 
Campagna  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Claude  Maddox? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  might  have  seen  him  some  place,  but  I  never  had 
anything  to  do  with  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  him? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  I  know  him. 

Mr,  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  don't  know.  It  might  have  been  some  time,  but 
I  never  had  anything  to  do  with  him.  I  know  a  lot  of  people,  and  I 
am  not  denying  it.  So  I  am  just  telling  you  the  best  I  kiiow  how. 
That  doesn't  mean  that  I  ever  did  anything  with  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  talked  to  Campagna  and  Gioe  about  your 
appearance  here  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  No.  We  met  when  we  was  in  court.  What  was  it? 
The  5th.  We  met  in  court,  and  then  we  were  told  about  your  sub- 
pena,  and  all  that,  and  he  went  back,  and  we  were  told  to  come  over 
here.  And  last  night  I  got  in  a  plane,  and  I  met  Louie  at  the  station. 
He  was  getting  off  another  plane.  We  met  this  morning.  We  went 
to  the  parole  officer.  We  went  up  there.  He  worked  there,  and  I  got 
there  first,  and  he  got  there.  He  saw  Mr.  Ower,  and  from  there  I  came 
here  by  myself,  and  we  met  over  here. 

IMr.  Robinson.  You  met  at  the  plane  last  night  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  at  the  station,  where  we  were  getting  the  bag- 
gage.   I  took  one  plane,  and  he  took  another  plane. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  ever  in  partnership  with  Russell? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  never  in  partnership  with  Russell  at  any 
time  or  place  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    No. 


40  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  James  Raoen  {  Did  you  know  James 
Ragen  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  think — I  think  I  saw  him  once  in  Florida. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  meet  him  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  I  don't  know ;  maybe  I  did.  But  I  don't  recall 
any  instance. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  what  business  he  was  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes;  he  was  in  the  wire  affair. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  wire  service  business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Patrick  Burns? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Never  heard  of  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  anyone  by  the  name  of  McBride? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  " 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  Cleveland?     You  never  have  met  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  might  have  met  him,  but  I  don't  recall  it. 

Mr.  Ror.iNsoN.  Do  you  know  any  other  people  connected  with  the 
w^ire  service  ? 

Wv.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Levin,  Hymie  Levin,  or  Levine? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Hymie  Levine,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  he  was  connected  with  the 
wire  service  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  was  he  in? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  Hymie  Levine  was  in  the  gambling  business,  too. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  type  of  gambling  business  w^as  he  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  had  a  booth  or  something.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  he  also  in  the  wire  service  business? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  R.  &  H.  Publishing  Co.? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Roy  Jones? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know^  George  Kelly  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  any  of  the  Kellys  in  the  wire  service 
business  ? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know  Tom  Kelly,  the  restaurant  man.  I  don't 
know  whether  he  is  mixed  up  with  that  or  not.     That  is  all  I  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  During  the  time  from  '40  to  'iS,  you  were  in  the 
gambling  business;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  type  of  books  did  you  keep  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Well,  my  books  was  like — at  the  end  of  the  year  what 
I  find  over,  that  is  what  I  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  everything  handled  on  a  cash  basis? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A  cash  basis,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  kept  no  records  at  all? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     No  records. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  didn't  you  also  handle  all  your  other  business 
on  a  cash  basis  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  41 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  You  never  used  a  banking  account  or  used  checks 
iitall? 
^    Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     I  put  money  in  the  bank, 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  paid  any  bills  by  check? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  handle  any  bets  from  people  outside 
of  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Xo. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  lay  off  any  bets  with  anyone -outside 
of  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

^Ir.  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  heard  yourself  described  as  being 
a  member  of  the  Capone  syndicate  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  that  come  about? 

]\Ir.  DeLucia.  The  newspapers. 

Mr.  RoBiNSt)N.  Were  you  ever  a  member  of  that  group  ? 

Mr.  Dp:Lucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  it  true  that  you  were  intimately  associated 
vcith  Nitti  and  Capone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  was  friendly,  but  not  intimately  associated. 

Mr.  Rt)BiNSON.  Just  what  was  the  extent  of  your  being  friendly 
with  him  ?     Was  it  purely  social  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  Well,  I  told  you.  Al  used  to  bet  with  me. 
Like  he  was  in  the  box  at  the  race  track,  and  he  would  say,  "I  will 
bet  you  so  much  on  this  and  that."  If  I  wanted  to,  I  would;  and, 
if  not,  I  wouldn't  take  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  was  your  only  association  with  Capone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  had  no  interest  in  the  liquor  business  or  any 
other  business  that  Capone  had  or  Nitti  had? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  is  Hugo  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  is  a  bookkeeper  for  the  Sportsman's  track. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  did  you  have  any  financial  transactions  with 
him  ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  he  made  me  a  mortgage  for  $40,000. 

]Mr.  Halley.  On  what? 

Mr.  DeLl'cia.  On  my  house  at  Long  Beach.  And  recently  he  gave 
me  a  mortgage  foi-  $40,000  on  my  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much  do  you  owe  Hugo  Bennett  now? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $80,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  $80,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  that  the  money  at  Sportsman's  Park,  or  his  own 
personal  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  his  own  money. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  Hugo  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  knew  him  for  a  long  time.  I  knew  his  father.  I 
knew  him  when  he  was  going  to  school. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  knew  him  and  John  Patton  together,  I  suppose? 

68958— 51— pt.  5 4 


42  ORGANIZED    CRIME'  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  didn't  know  him  and  John,  I  know  they  are 
friends. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Do  you  ever  go  out  to  Sportsman's  Park  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     I  could  go,  but  I  never  did, 

Mr.  Hallet.  Have  you  ever  gone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  never  did. 

Mr.  Hallet.  When  did  you  meet  Bennett  to  talk  about  the  mort- 
gage? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  called  him,  over  at  the  house. 

Mr.  Hallet.  How  did  you  know  that  Bennett  would  have  $80,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLuclv.  I  asked  him  if  I  could  borrow  some  money,  and  he 
said  "Yes." 

Mr.  Hallet.  Why  did  you  pick  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  because  I  know  he  is  well  off.  I  can't  go.  you 
know,  to  everj^body  for  money.  I  can't  go  to  the  bank  and  borrow 
money. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Bennett  works  for  Bill  Johnston ;  doesn't  he  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Well,  Johnston  is  the  head  of  Sportsman's  Park; 
isn't  he? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  But  he  is  in  Florida,  too,  Bennett  is.  He  lives 
in  Florida. 

Mr.  Hali^t.  And  so  is  Johnston.  They  are  together  in  the  dog 
tracks,  too. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Did  you  ever  have  an  interest  in  any  of  the  dog 
tracks  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Did  you  ever  own  any  stock  in  any  dog  track? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Or  in  any  race  track  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Hallet.  What  other  financial  dealings  did  you  ever  have  with 
Hugo  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Hallet.  None  jirior  to  that  ?  Well,  why  did  you  pick  Bennett, 
aside  from  anyone  else,  to  borrow  $80,000  from  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  just  asked  him.  I  said,  "How  can  I  get  this  ?" 
And  he  said,  "I  will  do  it  for  you." 

Mr.  Hallet.  Why  did  you  ask  Bennett?  Why  didn't  you  go  to  a 
bank?  Your  property  had  value.  You  could  have  got  a  mortgage 
from  a  bank. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  couldn't  have  gotten  any  money  from  a  bank. 
There  is  a  law  that  once  you  have  a  first  mortgage  you  can't  get  another 
mortgage.     I  went  through  all  tliat.     I  tried. 

Mr.  Hallet,  Did  you  give  Bennett  second  mortgages  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  Yes, 

Mr,  Hallet.  And  he  holds  them  today  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  He  has  a  first  mortgage  on  the  house  at  Long 
Beach,  though.     The  house  at  Long  Beach  was  clear. 

Mr.  Hallet.  How^  much  was  that  mortgage  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $40,000. 

Mr.  Hallet.  And  another  $40,000  on  the  farm? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMEECE  43 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  ever  bank  i*olled  any  gambling  house? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  lend  anybody  any  money  for  the  bank 
rolling  of  a  gambling  house  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  have  any  interest  in  any  gambling  house? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  have  any  interest  in  a  crap  game? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Or  in  a  dice  game  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  At  no  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  At  no  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  interest  do  you  pay  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  don't  know  what  it  is,  4  percent  or  6  percent. 
I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  pay  any  of  the  principal  back? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  have  an  understand  that  in  5  years  I  pay 
interest. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  right  now  you  pay  nothing? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  No  interest  and  no  principal  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  a  nice  mortgage;  isn't  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  he  is  a  friend  of  mine.  I  can't  go  to  the  bank. 
It  is  a  friendly  transaction. 

Mr.  Hali^y.  You  still  have  not  explained  how  you  became  a  friend 
of  Hugo  Bennett's. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you,  I  know  his  fatlier.  I  know  his  whole 
family.     I  know  his  brother. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  get  to  know  his  family  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  know  his  brother.  Patsy  is  dead  now.  We 
were  kind  of  friendly.  He  was  coming  over  to  the  house  all  the 
time.     That  is  how  I  got  to  know  the  family. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  were  part  of  the  Capone  mob;  weren't  they? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  they  weren't. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  were  friendly  with  Capone;  weren't  they? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  didn't  know  Capone? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose  they  did ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let's  stop  the  nonsense.  They  knew  Capone;  didn't 
they? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  because  this  boy  came  up  at  the  time  Capone 
was  in  jail. 

Mr.  Halley.  We  are  talking  about  his  father,  that  you  knew. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  His  father  is  a  painter. 

Mr.  Halley.  A  painter  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  There  is  nothing  wrong  about  that.  I  bought 
a  painting  from  him  that  he  made  at  the  house. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  how  did  you  get  to  know  his  father? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because  I  knew  him  a  long  time,  and  I  knew  his 
brother  Patsy  very  well. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  get  to  know  them? 


44  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  How  do  you  aet  to  know  people  ?  It  is  just  a  friendly 
affair,  people  that  you  know  for  a  Ion*;'  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  knew  them  from  their  associations  with  Capone 
and  Fischetti? 

Mr.  DeLicia.  There  is  no  association  there  at  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wasn't  there  such  an  association  with  Huoo  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  is  no  such  association  with  Capone,  because 
I  think  Al  Capone  was  already  in  jail  when  he  got  the  job. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  know  very  well  when  Al  Capone  went  to  jail  it 
was  understood  all  over  Chicago  that  certain  people  carried  on  for 
Capone. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  one  of  those  people  is  Jake  Guzik;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  heard  that;  didn't  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  hear  a  lot  of  things. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  didn't  you  hear  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  heard  that  Jake  Guzik  carried  on? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  heard  that  Fischetti  carried  on? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  assumed  that  a  lot  of  people  carried  on. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  it  said  that  j^ou  carried  on? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  been  done  a  great  injustice,  according  to 
yourself.  You  were  wrongfully  convicted  of  extortion  in  the  movie 
case  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  is  it  your  contention  also  that  when  you  met 
Gioe  in  the  bartenders'  case 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  never  met  him.  And,  when  he  came  up  in  court  to 
identify,  he  didn't  identify. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  was  the  man  who  tried  to  identify  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Whoever  it  was,  that  man 

Mr.  Halley.  McLane  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  McLane,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  did  somebody  intimidate.him  before  the  case  came 
to  court  ?  Maybe  somebody  spoke  to  him  and  told  him  what  would 
happen  to  him. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  All  I  can  tell  you  is  that  I  never  met  the  man  in  my 
life.  He  just  picked  my  name  out  of  the  paper  and  said  I  was  in  the 
restaurant  there.    I  never  met  him  in  my  life. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  were  you  ever  there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  the  restaurant? 

Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  sure,  I  was  in  the  restaurant.  But  I  never  met  the 
man  in  my  life,  never  had  anything  to  do  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  Louis  Romano? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  I  met  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  was  the  president  of  the  union ;  wasn't  he  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  what  he  was  supposed  to  be.    I  don't  know. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  45 

Mv.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  Frank  Xitti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Sure. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  knew  Murray  Humphreys? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  knew  Lou  Campagna  ? 

Mr.  DeLltcia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  knew  Frank  Abbott? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  knew  all  the  others  ? 

Mr.  DeLl  CIA.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  say  it  was  a  great  injustice  to  accuse  you  of 
trying  to  take  over  that  union  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  darn  right.  Because  that  man  never  met  me. 
They  never  saw  me.    They  just  put  my  name  in  there. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  were  you  a  member  of  the  union  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  union? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.    No,  Senator. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  have  anything  to  do  with  the  Retail 
Clerks  Union  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Retail  Clerks  International 
Protective  Association,  Local  l^-iS  ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no,  no,  no. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  heard  of  it ;  haven't  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  don't  know  anything  about  that  stuff. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  just  before  you  went  to  jail,  didn't  the  news- 
papers claim  you  were  trying  to  clean  out  that  union,  too? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  no  such  thing. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  ^cnow  Max  Caldwell  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  might  have  met  him.    I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  let's  get  it  down  right,  now.  Either  you  know 
him  or  you  don't.    Max,  Pollock?    He  is  also  known  as  Max  Pollock, 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know  a  lot  of  people,  so  it  wouldn't  be  nothing 
missing  if  I  tell  you  I  don't  know  the  fellow  and  I  might  have  met  him' 
by  some  coincidence.    And  then  you  could  prove  me  to  perjury. 

Mr.  Halley.  We  are  not  going  to  keep  this  up  all  day.  You  are 
here  under  subpena.  I  want  to  tell  you  that  for  a  man  who  is  here 
under  oath  your  answers  are  completely  unsatisfactory.  You  haven't 
given  us  any  more  reason  to  believe  your  ex]:)lanatioii  of  why  you 
should  get  an  $80,000  loan  from  Hugo  Bennett  than  you  have  as  to 
how  you  know  Max  Caldwell.  You  will  have  to  give  more  definite 
answers. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  can't  give  you  a  more  definite  answer  than  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  ]Max  Caldwell  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  will  say  "No" ;  but  that  doesn't  mean  I  might  not 
have  met  him  someplace.  Why  should  I  be  held  to  a  thing  like  that? 
I  might  have  met  him  or  seen  him,  and  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Max  Pollock? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  another  name  for  Max  Caldwell. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  you  are.    You  see  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  might  have  met  Mux  Caldwell  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  might.    If  I  know,  I  will  tell  you. 


46  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr,  Halley.  And  vou  think  you  may  or  may  not  have  known  Pol- 
lock? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  try  to  get  money  from  the  lietail  Clerks 
Union? 

Mr.  DeLtjcia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  get  any? 

Mr.  DeLucl4.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  weren't  a  member  of  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Louis  Greenberg? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  well  do  you  know  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  wouldn't  say  I  know  him  well.     I  know 
Greenberg  by 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  He  has  an  insurance  company.     He  has  a  brewery. 
He  is  a  real-estate  man,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson,  And  he  has  an  interest  in  the  Seneca  Hotel? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  might, 

Mr,  Robinson,  What  brewery  company  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  The  Manhattan. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Canadian  Ace? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.     They  changed  the  name.     When  I 
knew  it,  it  was  Manette, 

Mr,  Robinson,  Didn't  he  take  that  over  from  Capone? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  I  don't  know, 

Mr,  Robinson,  You  don't  know  that? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  I  don't  think  he  took  that  over  from  Capone.     Ca- 
pone went  to  jail  before  prohibition ;  wasn't  it? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  had  the  Manhattan  Brewery  Co.  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  Al  Capone  own  the  Manhattan  Brewery  Co.  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  think  so,     I  never  heard  of  it, 

Mr,  Robinson.  Which  one  of  these  houses  that  you  have  has  a  wall 
around  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  None. 

Mr,  Robinson,  You  don't  have  any  that  has  a  wall  around  it? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  No,     My  houses  are  all  open, 

Mr,  Robinson.  Do  you  hire  anyone  as  a  guard  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  a  caretaker. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "Wliat  is  his  name  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  Jim  Samarino, 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  his  backgi^ound  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  is  a  worker.     He  has  been  working  for  me  for  20 
years,  for  at  least  15  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  he  have  a  criminal  record  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  think  so.     No ;  he  hasn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  hasn't  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No, 

Mr,  Robinson.  You  never  inquired  to  find  out  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  but  I  know  he  hasn't,  because  he  is  a  worker. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  he  also  a  bodyguard  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRlMEi  IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  47 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Ko  ;  he  isn't  a  bodyguard.  He  is  a  working  man  who 
takes  care  of  the  grounds,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  EoBixsoN.  Do  you  have  a  bodyguard  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

INIr.  EoBiNSON.  Who  else  is  a  guard  out  there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Nobody. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  is  the  only  one  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     He  is  still  out  there. 

The  Chairman.  Let  me  ask  what  Mr.  DeLucia's  record  has  been. 

How  manj^  times  have  you  been  arrested,  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  have  been  arrested  several  times,  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  let  us  name  the  times. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  hard  for  me  to  say.  You  have  them  in  the 
record  there. 

The  Chairman.  What  have  you  been  arrested  for  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Just  pickup. 

The  Chairman.  Gambling? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  no  gambling. 

The  Chairman.  And  you  were  arrested  and  tried  on  this  extortion 
case? 

Mr.  DeLucla..  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  What  other  times  have  you  ever  been  in  jail?  Any 
other  times  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Those  were  the  only  ones  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Never  had  an  income-tax  case  send  you  to  jail? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  the  only  case. 

The  Chairman.  You  had  a  suit  here  against  somebody  about  an 
elevator,  when  an  elevator  fell  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  I  fell  down  and  broke  my  hip. 

The  Chairman.  You  were  with  the  two  Fischetti  boys  when  the 
elevator  fell  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Where  was  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  was  in  an  antique  shop.  I  went  to  look  at  a 
painting,  and  we  fell  down  in  the  elevator. 

The  Chairman.  Just  the  three  of  you  in  the  elevator? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  it  was  four  or  five  of  us.  I  don't  know.  It 
was  me,  Charlie  Fischetti,  a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Bobby  Carnahan, 
the  elevator  boy,  and  I  don't  know  who  else,  maybe  one 

The  Chairman.  One  of  the  two  Fischetti  boys  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  Joe  Fischetti  maybe. 

The  Chairman.  What  were  you  and  the  Fischettis  doing  together 
on  that  occasion  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  went  there  to  look  at  a  painting.  They  told  me 
they  had  a  painting  there. 

The  Chairman.  They  had  a  painting? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.     It  was  an  antique  shop. 

The  Chairman.  Who  called  you  ?     One  of  the  Fischettis  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  passed  by  there.  I  went  by  there  all  the  time. 
They  told  me  there  was  a  painting,  and  I  went  to  look  at  it,  and  on 
the  way  down  the  elevator  fell. 


48  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman,  When  you  did  all  this  gambling,  did  you  have  an 
office  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  just  see  Al  Capone  and  others  around  the 
hotel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  All  of  it  at  the  hotel  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  The  Lexington  Hotel. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  When  you  went  out  to  the  race  track,  would  you 
take  their  bets  out  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  went  out  to  bet,  myself,  at  the  windows,  and  all 
that. 

The  Chairman.  I  know,  but  would  you  take  bets  from  people  at 
the  race  track? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  And  also  at  the  hotel.  How  did  they  all  want  to 
bet  with  you?    Did  10  or  12  peo})le  bet  with  you  a  day? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  Oh,  no.    It  all  depends. 

The  Chairman.  And  you  would  make  $100,000  a  year  out  of  betting 
with  people? 

INIr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else  ? 

Mr.  Robinson,  Did  you  also  bet  in  the  bookie  places  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  did ;  yes.    It  was  a  commission  house,  you  know. 

Mr,  Halley.  You  mean  Harry  RusselFs? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  RoniNsoN.  Was  that  where  you  did  most  of  your  betting? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  Part  of  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  was  the  rest  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  rest  of  it  was  at  the  track. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Any  other  books  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Some  other  books. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  What  other  ones? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  tell  you,  you  are  going  to  laugh  at  me,  because  you 
are  going  to  say  "The  man  is  sick."  Levine  had  a  book,  and  I  used 
to  bet  over  there ;  but  he  is  sick  now. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  know  that.    How  often  would  you  bet  at  Levine's? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Quite  often. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  name  of  his  place? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  He  had  a  few  places.  He  would  move 
here  and  there,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  other  places? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  don't  know  what  places. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Can't  you  name  some  more? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  It  was  them  days,  you  know.  Then  I  went  to 
jail,  you  see.    And  that  is  all.    I  don't  know  now  who  has  anything. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Most  of  your  betting  was  done  at  Levine's  and 
Russell's  that  wasn't  done  at  the  track? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  you  interested  in  paintings? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well^ 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  49 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  you  interested  in  paintings? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

]Mr.  Rdbinson.  You  say  you  were  up  some  place  looking  at  a 
painting. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  acquire  paintings? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  didn't  buy  that  painting. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  thinking  of  buying  it? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  price  of  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh.  a  couple  of  hundred  dollars. 

Mr.  Robinson.  $1,200? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A  couple  of  hundred  dollars. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Have  you  bought  paintings? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  off  and  on. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  And  how  many  have  you  bought  ? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  bought  some  for  $25,  some  for  $50,  or  some- 
thing like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  highest  price  you  have  paid  for  a 
painting? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  $400. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $400.  Well,  $400  or  $600.  I  think  one  I  paid  $500 
or  $fiOO  for. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  pay  over  a  thousand  dollars  for  one? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  never. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  make  contributions  to  charities? 

]\lr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  record  those  on  your  tax  return? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  No.  ' 

Mr.  Robinson.  W^hy  not? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  what  is  the  use?  I  put  my  expense;  that  is 
all.  I  give  to  the  Catholic  Church,  a  hundred  dollars  at  Christmas, 
or  something  like  that. 

Mr.  R()P.iNSON.  And  you  never  record  that  for  deduction  purposes? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  made  political  contributions? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Never? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Never. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  through  any  one  else? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Never. 

]\lr.  Robinson.  You  were  arrested  in  November  1932,  at  the  Planters 
Hotel ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Where? 

Mr.  Robinson.  At  the  Planters  Hotel. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  At  the  Planters? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  were  you  arrested  in  1932? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Where?    Whereat?    Where  was  it? 

Mr,  Robinson.  Well,  I  am  asking  you. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  the  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  remember  whether  you  were  arrested  in 
1932? 


50  OBGANIZE©    crime;   IN   INTERSTATE    OOMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What  was  the  occasion?  Oh,  I  remember,  but  I 
don't  remember  the  year. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  remember  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  the  year.  Maybe  it  was  so.  I 
don't  remember  the  occasion. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  with  whom  you  were  arrested 
around  about  that  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  told  you  I  was  arrested  with  Loki.  Is  that 
what  you  mean  ?    That  is  the  Congress  Hotel,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  having  been  arrested  in  1930,  at 
South  Halsted  Street? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Wliere? 

Mr.  Robinson.  South  Halsted  Street. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    That  is  right,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else  was  arrested  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Weren't  there  other  people  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.    You  can  refresh  my  memory. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Weren't  there  other  people  who  were  arrested  there 
at  the  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  It  had  something  to  do  with  listening  to  illegal 
returns  over  the  radio. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes.  That  was  Charlie  Coe,  or  somethmg  like 
that,  a  politician.  He  was  running  for  Congressman,  for  State  repre- 
sentative, or  something.  I  don't  remember.  We  were  up  there  listen- 
ing.   Yes ;  I  remember  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else  was  there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  Frankie  Rio,  I  think,  and  Charlie  Correa.  You 
have  them  there.  Why  should  you  ask  me?  I  will  believe  what  you 
say.    I  won't  deny  it. 

"Mr.  Robinson.  I  don't  want  you  to  admit  it.    I  want  you  to  recall  it. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  all  those  names. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Nitti  killed  himself?    Is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  why? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  got  up  in  the  morning,  and  he  killed  himself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  have  any  reasons  of  your  own  as  to  why 
he  killed  himself? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  associated  with  him  at  that  time? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  the  trial,  yes. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Do  you  know  Tony  Resotti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  him  as  Jack  Bracton? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know  Jack  Bracton. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  that  his  real  name  was  Resotti  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Mike  Lemandre  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Hal  LaRocca  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Salvatore  Migeri  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 


ORGANIZED    CRlMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  51 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Joe  Tocco  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who? 

Mr.  Hat.t.kt.  Joseph  Tocco. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  don't  know  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Who  do  you  know  out  at  Kansas  City «  Did  you 
know  Gargotta? 

]\lr.  DeLucia.  No. 

The  Chaiksian.  Did  you  ever  go  to  Kansas  City  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  there  when  I  came  out. 

The  Chairman.  I  know,  but  did  you  ever  go  there  before  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

]Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Balestrere  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     I  know  Gizzo,  if  that  is  what  you  want. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  know  Gizzo  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  met  Gizzo  in  Florida  with  his  wife. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  have  any  business  with  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Binaggio? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

jSIr.  Robinson.  How  often  did  vou  go  to  Florida? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  went  to  Florida  one  year.  It  was  in  '38.  I 
kept  the  family  there  about  6  months.     That  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  the  only  time  you  were  ever  in  Florida? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Before,  I  went  and  came  back  after  a  few  days. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  would  you  visit  when  you  were  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  would  visit  Al  or  somebody  else. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  would  stay  at  his  house  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  would  get  a  place,  you  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  ySTho  else  would  you  visit  besides  Al  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  whoever  was  around. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  who?    Try  and  remember  some  of  them. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  them.  It  is  a  long  time  ago,  and 
there  is  no  use  in  my  mentioning  names  when  I  can't  recall. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  He  is  the  only  one  that  you  can  recall? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  He  is  the  only  one  I  can  say  for  sure.  Maybe 
I  met  someone  else.    I  can't  say. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  one  of  his  closest  friends,  weren't  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wasn't  his  closest  friend.  I  was  in  trust.  That 
is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  very  close  to  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  one  was  close  to  Al. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  as  close  as  anyone  ? 

]\Ir.  DeLucia.  Oh,  no.    Don't  say  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "WTio  else  was  as  close  ? 

]SIr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  own  a  house  at  5301  West  Jackson  Street? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  was  living  there. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Wliat  is  that  ? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  renting  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  renting  there.    You  never  owned  that? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 


52  ORGANIZBD    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  that  place  have  a  wall  arouiul  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.   Who  tell  you  those  thing? 

The  Chairman.  My.  DeLiicia,  you  can  jro  back  to  Chicago,  ihis 
nieetin<T  is  recessed,  and  you  are  still  subject  to  subpena.  I  mean,  the 
subi)ena  is  still  to  be  held  in  force  as  to  you.  And  we  will  expect  that 
M-hen  you  are  notitied  to  appear  again,  on  the  same  subpena  that  you 
now  have,  you  will  be  there.  Now  as  quickly  as  possible,  we  will  go 
through  these  books  and  return  which  ones  we  can  to  you. 

I  suppose  you  need  this  book  on  your  employees  on  your  tarm :  so 
that  will  be  gotten  back  to  you  as  soon  as  possible. 

You,  upon  the  request  of  Mr.  Robinson,  will  bring  m  the  checks  and 

the  bank  statements  ?  .^1-^^-4. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  mean  this  Mr.  Robinson  m  Chicago  ^  1  ou  want 
the  checks  and  what  else  ?  i  a-  i 

Mr.  Haei.ey.  All  of  your  papers,  whatever  you  have,  i  ou  under- 
stand what  the  chairman  has  said  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    Sure.  .      . 

The  Chairman.  Then  you  will  be  excused  for  this  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Excuse  me.  I  would  like  to  clarify  one  thing,  per- 
haps. Are  these  records  the  records  that  you  turned  over  to  the 
parole  officer  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  borrowed  those  from  him  to  produce  here  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  i       re       9 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  required  to  do  that  by  the  parole  othcer  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  call  me  in  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  required  periodically  to  show  him  every- 
thing ? 
•  Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  produced  these  books  to  do  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  But  that  is  only  from  the  time  you  came  out  ot  the 

penitentiary?  '       •  ^     -, 

The  Chairman.  You  work  this  matter  out,  then,  with  the  parole 
officer,  and  we  will  expect  you  to  bring  it  to  Mr.  Robinson  the  can- 
celed checks,  the  bank  statements,  or  anything  else  you  have,  for  his 
inspection. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  When  do  you  want  me  to  bring? 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  will  notify  you. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Are  the  books  to  be  left  here? 

The  Chairman.  They  will  be  left  here  today.  They  will  be  brought 
back  out  to  Chicago. 

Anything  else  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  sir. 

There  is  nothing  else.  You  are  free  to  return  home.  We  will  stand 
in  recess  until  1 :  30. 

(Whereupon,  at  12:  25  p.  m.,  a  recess  was  taken  until  1:  30  p.  m., 
the  same  day.) 

AFTER    RECESS 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 
Mr.  Campagna,  you  have  been  sworn,  and  I  think  we  might  as  well 
have  an  understanding  here  to  start  with.     The  committee,  the  easy 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  53 

^vav  or  the  hard  way,  is  going  to  get  any  facts  you  know.  We  will 
get  alontr  a  whole  lot  faster  and  better  if  you  will  be  frank  and  not 
hesitate  in  answering  questions,  not  try  to  avoid  them,  and  tell  us 
what  information  we  want,  because  you  are  going  to  reniam  under 
sub])ena  until  we  get  through  with  our  investigation,  bo  we  can 
save  a  lot  of  time  if  you  will  just  tell  us  what  we  are  interested  in 
without  us  having  to  drag  it  out  of  you  bit  by  bit. 

TESTIMONY  OF  LOUIS  CAMPAGNA,  BERWYN,  ILL. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  state  your  full  name  \ 

Mr.  Campagna.  Louis  Campagna. 

:\Ir.  Robinson.  Is  that  your  real  name  I 

Mr.  Campagna.  It  is.  ,•,•>-.  x  i 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  Campagna,  this  is  exhibit  ^o.  5  I  am  showing 
you.  You  were  served  with  a  subpena  to  produce  certain  books  and 
records  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes :  I  was. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  I  submit  this  as  exhibit  Xo.  5. 

The  Chairman.  It  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record  as  o^hibit  No.  5. 

( Plxhibit  No.  5  appears  in  the  appendix  on  p.  1379.) 

Mr,  Robinson.  Mr.  Campagna,  that  subpena  calls  for  certain  books 
and  records. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  those  books  and  records  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  have  as  much  as  I  could  get.  I  got  everything 
from  my  auditor. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  produce  them,  please? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  certainly  will. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  is  your  auditor? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Bansley  &  Keiner. 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  a  firm  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Where  are  they? 

Mr.  Campagna.  They  are  located  on  Wells  Street,  Chicago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How'long  have  they  been  your  auditor? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  since  19o8  or  1937. 

Mr.  Robinson.  They  have  handled  your  books  and  records  and  your 
tax  work  ever  since  that  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  these  in  any  way  so  that  you  can  iden- 
tify them? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Xo. 

Mr.  Robinson.  By  grouping,  I  mean. 

Mr.  Campagna.  His  grouping  is  in  this  book. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  take  the  book  as  exhibit  Xo.  6. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  the  ledger,  exhibit  Xo.  6. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  call  exhibit  Xo.  7,  the  brown  envelope,  miscel- 
laneous bills  and  papers. 

The  Chairman.  It  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record  as  such. 
( Exhibits  Xo.  6  and  7  were  later  returned  to  witness.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  one  that  has  copies  of  your  income-tax 
returns? 

Mr.  Campa{;na.  How  do  you  mean? 


54  ORGAJSriZED    CRIME    EN   INTEIRSTATE   COMMERCE 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Do  yon  have  a  folder'that  contains  all  the  copies  of 
your  income-tax  returns? 

Mr.  Campagna,  This  is  the  one  here. 

The  Chairman.  That  will  be  exhibit  No.  8. 

(Exhibit  No.  8  was  returned  to  witness  after  analysis  by  the  com- 
mittee. ) 

Mr.  Campagna.  Here  are  a  couple  in  here,  1949.     I  am  not  sure. 

Mr.  Robinson.  If  j^ou  have  tax  returns  in  there,  let  us  put  them 
all  together. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  they  are  all  in  there  together.  Whatever  is 
.here,  he  gave  me  the  whole  thing. 

Mr.  E-OBiNsoN.  Exhibit  No.  9  is  also  some  miscellaneous  documents. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  else  do  you  have? 

Mr.  Campagna.  These  here.     I  brought  everything  he  gave  mtj. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Exhibit  No.  10  is  some  income-tax  returns  and  other 
documents. 

The  Chairman.  They  may  be  so  marked. 

Mr.  Robinson.  A  manila  folder,  exhibit  No.  11,  miscellaneous  docu- 
ments. 

The  Chairman.  That  may  be  so  marked. 

(Exhibits  Nos.  9,  10,  and  11  were  later  returned  to  witness.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  other  books  and  records  in  your 
possession  that  you  have  not  produced? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir ;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  canceled  checks? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes;  I  have.  My  son  has  them.  He  handles  the 
checking.  I  didn't  have  a  chance  to  go  down  and  get  them.  Wlien  I 
got  the  call,  I  came  up  here. 

The  Chairman.  Can  you  get  them  and  turn  them  over  to  Mr.  Rob- 
inson, when  he  asks  for  them  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  bank  statements  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  What  do  you  mean  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  your  son  have  those? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  suppose  he  does. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are 'the  documents  you  produced  here  merely  the 
ones  you  had  turned  over  to  the  probation  officer  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No.  I  just  turned  over  to  him  1948  and  1940.  He 
wanted  to  know  what  I  did  since  the  day  I  came  home. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  bring  those  documents  with  you  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  They  are  in  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  But  you  do  have  some  other  documents? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No;  I  haven't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Canceled  checks  and  bank  statements. 

Mr.  Campagna.  The  canceled  check  from  the  farm  proceeds  are 
in  there.  I  will  have  to  go  down  to  Fowler,  Ind.,  and  get  them.  My 
son  keeps  them  and  handles  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  wish  you  would  get  them  and  produce  them  for 
me  when  I  notify  you  through  the  parole  officer. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  fine. 

Mr.  Robinson.  As  to  when  do  the  records  go  back  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  There  is  a  mix-up  between  the  records  on  the  farm 
and  tenants.  I  went  away  in  1943  and  I  came  home  in  1947.  There 
was  tenant  farmers  and  was  mostly  run  ou  cash  basis. 


OEGAJSflZED    CRIMEi   IN    mTERSTATE    COMMERCE  55 

Mr.  Robinson".  How  about  the  record  from  1941?  The  subpena 
calls  for  all  records  back  to  Jaiuiary  1941. 

Mr.  CAMrAGNA.  They  are  all  there.  I  am  talking  about  the  fann. 
Those  are  the  only  proceeds  I  have  since  I  came  home. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  other  words,  what  you  have  produced  here  and 
what  your  son  has  is  the  total  amount  of  records  covered  by  the 
subpena  ? 

]\Ir.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  on  parole  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Since  1947? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  riglit. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  from  194o  to  1947,  were  you  in  prison? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  are  j'ou  engaged  in  at  the  present 
time? 

Mr.  Ca:mpagna.  Just  handling  the  both  farms,  supervising  and 
watching  over  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  property  do  you  own  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  own  a  farm  in  P'owler,  Ind.,  in  partnership  with 
my  Avife,  and  the  home  I  live  in  in  partnership  with  my  wife. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  is  your  home  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Berrien,  111. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  a  residence  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  acquire  that  residence? 

Mr.  Campagna.  1928  or  1929. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  pav  for  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  $13,500. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  value  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  would  not  be  able  to  state.  Offhand  you 
ask  me  something  I  could  not  judge  myself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  have  you  made  any  improvements  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  fixed  the  attic  up. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  money  did  you  put  in  the  house? 

jSIr.  Campagna.  I  judge  I  didn't  put  in  more  than  three  or  four 
thousand  more. 

J\[r.  Robinson.  When  did  j'ou  acquire  the  farm  ? 

]Mr.  Campagna.  In  1942. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  acres-is  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  800  acres. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  pay  for  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  $100,000. ' 

Mr,  Robinson.  Did  you  put  any  improvements  into  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  improvements  to  the  buildings,  painting.  It 
was  in  pretty  good  shape.    Some  equipment  also. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  total  value  of  what  you  put  into  the 
farm? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  judge  around  $20,000. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  It  wouldn't  be  more  than  that  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  wouldn't  think  it  would,  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  acquired  any  stock  or  machinery  for  the 
farm  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes ;  that  is  all  included. 


56  ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IN   INTEIRSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr,  KoBiNSON.  It  would  be  included  in  the  $20,000? 

Mr.  Campacna.  Yes,  sir.  I  wish  you  wouldn't  ])in  me  down  ex- 
actly to  the  figures  because  I  am  tryinij  to  do  the  best  I  can. 

Mr.  Robinson,  Approximately.  Your  sole  source  of  income  since 
you  came  out  of  the  penitentiary  has  been  from  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  Campagna,  Since  1943,  since  I  went  to  the  penitentiary,  and 
since  I  came  home  that  is  the  only  source  of  revenue  I  have,  outside  of 
dividends  on  White  INIotors. 

Mr,  Robinson,  What  is  the  farm  used  for? 

Mr,  Campagna.  We  have  steers;  we  have  hogs;  and  we  raise  grain 
to  try  to  feed  our  fattening  out. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  runs  it  for  you  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  My  son  runs  the  Indiana  farm. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  superintends  his  running  of  it? 

Mr.  Campagna,  I  do. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  did  wdiile  you  were  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  There  was  an  elderly  man  when  I  took  it  over. ' 
He  stayed  there  quite  a  while.    When  I  went  aw^ay  they  had  a  boy  by 
the  name  of  Davey  Sheetz,  if  I  am  not  mistaken,  on  a  50-50  basis. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  people  do  you  employ  on  the  farm? 

Mr,  Campagna,  I  think  he  employs  two,  besides  he  works  himself. 

The  Chairman,  Are  there  two  farms  involved  here? 

Mr,  Campagna,  There  are  two  farms  involved.  One  is  strictly  my 
wife's  and  I  run  it  with  her  own  chickens,  and  I  have  40  head  of 
cattle. 

The  Chairman,  Is  that  at  Fowler  ? 

Mr,  Campagna,  No,  sir;  that  is  at  Berrien  Springs, 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  pay  for  that  farm? 

Mr.  Campagna.  $3,800  and  $3,300,  or  $7,100. 

Mr.  Robinson,  She  paid  that  for  the  farm  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  Yes,  sir, 

Mr,  Robinson,  You  advanced  the  money  for  that? 

Mr,  Campagna,  Some  of  it, 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  large  is  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Eighty  acres. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  improvements  have  you  put  in  that? 

Mr,  CampxVGna,  There  are  quite  a  lot  of  improvements  there, 

Mr,  Robinson.  Roughly  how  much  have  you  spent  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  There  are  a  lot  of  donations.  That  is  why  I  say, 
you  spend  on  there,  I  say  there  are  $30,000  worth  of  improvements 
on  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Donations? 

Mr.  Campagna,  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson,  What  sort  of  donations  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  From  cement,  from  1933  to  1934,  they  sent  up  the 
cement,  and  I  did  a  lot  of  my  own  work. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Cement  from  your  own  company  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  would  you  get  donations  of  cement  ? 

Mr.  Campagna,  Well,  a  fellow  was  in  the  labor  and  material  service, 
and  just  friendly,  and  he  sent  me  up  some  cement.  He  came  up  to 
visit  me, 

Mr,  Robinson,  How  much  did  he  send  up  to  you  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  About  2,100  or  2,200  bags. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  57 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  What  was  his  name? 
Mr.  Campagna.  He  is  dead.     Mike  Grassio. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  yon  acquire  that  property,  or  your  wife? 
Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  she  acquired  it  in  1932. 
Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  still  own  it  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  value  of  it  now  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  it  is  hard  to  tell.     It  is  according  to  what 
people  would  pay  if  they  wanted  it. 
The  Chairman.  Your  best  estimate. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  I  don't  know.  I  don't  think  I  could  get 
$40,000  for  it  if  she  went  out  and  put  it  on  the  market.  It  is  a  fruit 
country  center,  and  that  is  all  you  can  raise.  It  is  down  at  the  low  end 
of  the  river  and  for  the  last  3  or  4  years  we  have  been  flooded  out.  So 
I  don't  think  anybody  would  be  interested  if  they  knew  it. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  other  property  do  you  own  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  personal  property  do  you  own  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  Outside  of  what  I  have  on  me  ? 
Mr.  Robinson.  Stocks,  bonds. 
Mr.  Campagna.  I  own  300  shares  of  White  Motors, 
Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  acquire  that  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  I  judge  around  8  or  9  years  ago. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  what  you  paid  for  it? 
Mr.  Campagna.  No  ;  I  don't.    It  was  a  variation,  I  think.    I  am  not 
positive— 33  for  100  and  231/2  for  the  other  200.    It  may  be  a  little 
less.    I  think  1  was  18.    I  am  not  positive. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  still  have  it  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  other  stocks  do  you  own  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  Between  the  both  of  us  we  have  United  States 
bonds. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  amount  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  About  $15,000.    That  is  not  including  the  maturity. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  other  stock  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  all,  sir. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  stocks  does  your  wife  own  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  all  she  owns. 
Mr.  Robinson.  There  is  no  stock  she  owns? 

Mr.  Campagna.  She  owns  250  White  Motors.    I  own  300  and  she 
owns  250  shares. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  she  acquire  those  at  the  same  time  you  did? 
Mr.  Campagna.  About  the  same  time. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  interest  in  any  business  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir;  I  have  not,  outside  of  these  farms. 
Mr.  Robinson.  You  receive  no  revenue  from  any  other  business  ? 
Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir ;  I  have  not. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Except  the  f aims. 
Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  talking  now  from  1947  up  to  the  present 
time. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  am  talking  about  1943.    I  dissolved  all  partner- 
ships. 

6S958 — 51— pt.  5 5 


58  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   nSTTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  partnerships? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  was  in  gambling. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Name  the  partnership. 

Mr.  Campagna.  It  is  in  there.    It  is  all  a  matter  of  record. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yon  mnst  remember  the  name. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Mr.  Heeney  and  Corgole. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  alL  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  that  partnership  was  for  ^Yhat  period  of  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  was  from  around  1934, 1933  to  1934. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  had  no  partnership  agreement  with  anyone 
else  during  that  period  of  time  except  those  two  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  partnership  agreements  with  them 
prior  to  that  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Prior  to  what? 

Mr.  Robinson.  1933  or  1934. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know  just  exactly  tlie  year,  but  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  partnership  agreement  with  any- 
one else  prior  to  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Not  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge ;  no.  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Tell  me  something  about  the  nature  of  the  partner- 
ship agreement.     What  was  it  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Horse  books. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  mean,  it  wasn't  solely  gambling,  it  Avas  an  in- 
terest in  some  particular  place? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right,  in  a  particular  place  in  gambling. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  were  the  names  of  the  places  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  The  El  Patio,  and  I  don't  recall  what  the  place  on 
Twelfth  Street  was  named.  I  think  that  will  all  be  in  the  record.  I 
know  the  El  Patio. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Then  were  there  others  besides  that  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  was  the  only  place  that  you  had  an  interest? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No;  and  one  on  Twelfth  Street,  but  I  can't  recall 
the  name  of  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  money  did  you  put  into  them? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  we  started  out  with  about  $1,500. 

Mr.  Halle Y.  Maybe  I  can  help.     The  Austin  Club. 

Mr  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  put  in  about  $1,500? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  Heeney  ])ut  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know  at  that  time  what  he  put  in. 

Mr,  Robinson.  How  nuich  did  Corgole  ]3Ut  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  I  put  the  money  in  myself.  They  had  noth- 
ing.    We  just  started  a  small  place  and  built  it  up. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  subsequently  invest  in  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  About  $1,500. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  what  you  put  in  first. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  said  it  was  built  up.  Who  put  the  money  in 
to  build  it  up  ? 


ORGANIZED   CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  59 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  the  same  place.  It  is  a  bar  in  front  and  a 
room  in  the  back.  Maybe  you  don't  understand  what  I  am  trymg  to 
get.  It  was  a  bar  in  the  front  and  a  room  in  the  back.  We  operated 
the  room  in  the  back. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Did  yon  own  the  bar  in  front? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  owned  that? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  Corgole  or  somebody  else  had  the  bar, 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  had  the  book. 

Mr.  Campagna.  The  three  of  us  had  the  book  in  the  back. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  got  no  revenue  from  the  bar? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  ran  the  book  for  you  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Corgole. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  you  get  your  wire  service  there  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  can't  tell  you. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  mean  you  don't  know  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  the  information  get  into  the  book? 

]Mr.  Campagna.  The  reason  I  say  that,  I  never  knew  much  about  the 
book.  He  was  the  man  who  ran  everything.  I  could  not  even  tell 
you  the  odds  on  the  betting  on  the  horses. 

Mr.  Robinson.  This  was  from  1934  to  1943? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  said  about  1934. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Approximately. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  take  out  of  that  business  during 
that  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Gee,  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Can  you  give  a  rough  approximation  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  It  is  all  in  the  records.  It  is  more  positive  that 
way  than  I  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  don't  think  it  is  in  the  records.     . 

Mr.  Campagna.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  These  records  go  back  to  1934. 

Mr.  Campagna.  No ;  they  don't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Then  give  me  your  best  recollection  of  it. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  you  make  out  of  it  in  an  average  year? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Senator,  it  is  pretty  hard  to  judge.  Some  years  you 
get  a  bad  Dreak  and  some  years  a  fair  break.  It  is  hard  to  judge.  If 
I  give  a  figure.  I  would  be  misquoting  myself. 

The  Chairman.  What  was  the  high  year  and  the  low  year? 

Mr.  Campagna.  The  high  years  were  from  about  1939-  to  1943.  We 
started  in  1934,  1933,  whatever  it  was. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  it  40,  50,  60  thousand  dollars  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  ;  it  was  not  that  kind  of  money  in  those  days. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  it  subsequently  develop  into  that  kind  of  money  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  It  did ;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  would  you  say  was  quite  a  bit  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  would  judge  around  80  or  90  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  that  be  your  peak  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  it  would. 

The  Chairman.  Would  that  be  your  part? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  :  that  would  be  the  whole. 


60  ORGANIZED    CRIME   'IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  That  was  split  liow  many  ways?     Three  ways? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes.  ,  .     , ,      t  u     ■   ....^7 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  interest  m  the  liquor  business? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  lay  off  betsj  . 

Mr  Campagna.  They  may  have.  You  see,  you  are  asking  me  some- 
thing about  the  booking  business.  Like  I  said  a  minute  ^go. /.^^ont 
know  much  about  it.     This  Corgole  ran  it  and  he  may  have   aid  off 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  get  any  income  trom  your  own  individual 
0'imblinp'  activities  ^ 

Mr.  CImpagna.  None  whatever.  Let  me  explain  that  again,  please. 
You  mean  having  another  book  myself  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  No  ;  I  mean  betting  yourself. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  might  have. 

Mr  Robinson.  Any  income  you  received^ 

Mr  Campagna.  I  might  have  made  a  few  dolhirs,  and  I  might  have 
taken  a  loss,  too,  going  to  the  track  and  betting  myself,  back  and 

Mr  RomNsoN.  Do  I  understand  correctly  that  Corgole  was  the  one 
that  made  all  the  arranoements  about  the  wire  service  i 

Mr    Campagna.  He  handled  the  whole  book  and  everything  else. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  this  for  the  two  places  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes ;  that  is  right. 

Mr  Robinson.  You  speak  of  80  or  00  thousand  dol  ars  approxi- 
mately, the  top  figure;  was  that  from  one  place  or  both  places? 

Mr."  Campagna.  Both  places 

Mr.  Robinson.  Which  was  the  most  profitable^one  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  that  was  a  question.  Sometimes  the  one  on 
Twelfth  Street  would  be  profitable 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  they  about  equal?  ^  ^1,^  ,,,^1 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  would  say  they  would  be  about  equal  at  the  end 

"""^MrRoBiNSON.  Do  you  know  an  address  by  tlie  number  of  3730  AVest 

Roosevelt  Road? 

Mr  Campagna.  3730— no;  I  do  not.  w    +  t?     o« 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  there  quite  a  few  book  places  along  West  Roose- 
velt Road?  ^^      ^ 

Mr.  Campagna.  Gee,  I  could  not  say.  .1       u     •     00  1.. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  interest  in  any  other  business  be- 
side this  bookmaking  business  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir,  I  did  not.  _ 

Mr.  Robinson.  During  that  period  of  time 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir;  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  I  would  say 

"■^Mr.  Robinson.  I  don't  know  whether  I  asked  you.  Do  you  have  a 
place  at  Fowler,  Ind.  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  about  400  acres? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  it  is  more  than  that.  Today  it  is  950  acres.  It 
was  800  acres  originally.    I  just  bought  150. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  pay  for  the  15U  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  $22,500. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME'   IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  61 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  "Where  did  the  money  come  from  to  pay  that  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  had  it. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Was  that  income  received  from  your  farm  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Some. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Where  did  the  rest  of  it  come  from  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  had  it  home. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  bank  do  you  bank  with  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  haven't  got  no  bank  outside  of  Fowler,  Ind.  We 
bank  all  our  checkino;  for  the  farm  in  Lafayette,  I  think. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Do  you  keep  money  around  the  house  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  do. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  much  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  sometimes  keep  seven  or  eight  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  much  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Seven  or  eight  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Is  that  the  largest  amount  you  kept  around  the 
house  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Sometimes  more. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  much? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  don't  know  exactly.  Sometimes  $20,000.  Some- 
times when  I  was  in  partnership  from'^the  Fowler  farm,  I  sell  a  herd 
of  cattle,  and  you  might  have  $20,000. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  During  the  time  you  were  operating  the  gambling 
X)lace,  how  much  money  did  you  keep"^at  the  house  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  About  three  or  four  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  have  a  safe  deposit  box  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  did  not. 
Mr.  RoBixsoN.  Never  at  any  time  ? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  Not  that  I  can  recall. 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  Well,  do  you  nave  any  other  personal  assets  ? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  No,  I  have  not. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Do  you  have  an  interest  in  the  Seneca  Hotel? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  None  whatever. 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  Ever  have  one  ? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  I  just  don't  recall  whether  I  did. 
The  Chabrmax.  You  know  whether  you  had  an  interest. 
Mr.  Campagxa.  Just  a  minute.    I  will  answer  it.    If  I  am  right, 
I  will  answer.    I  just  don't  want  to  make  no  mistakes,  either.    No, 
I  haven't. 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  Are  these  books  that  you  had  in  Cicero  ? 
Mr,  Campagxa.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Didn't  you  have  a  monopoly  of  that  in  Cicero  ? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  No,  I  did  not. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Wlio  else  was  running  books  there  at  the  time? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  Well,  I  don't  know. 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  must  know  some  of  them. 
Mr.  Campagxa.  No,  I  don't  know  any  bookmakers. 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  know  of  no  other  person  who  was  running 
a  bookie  place  in  Cicero  at  the  time  you  were  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  never  paid  any  attention  to  running  the  book. 
I  just  walked  in  and  out  of  the  place  we  had  and  I  didn't  pay  at- 
tention to  it. 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  Do  you  know  Tony  Accardo  ? 
Mr.  Campagxa.  Yes,  I  do. 


62  ORGANIZED    CRIME   'IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr,  Robinson.  For  how  long? 

Mr.  Campagna.  15  or  18  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  him  intimately  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  would  say  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  do. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  known  him  intimately  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  For  how  long? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  would  say  about  the  same. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Gioe  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  have  known  him  for  quite  a  while,  too. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  you  come  from  originally? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Originall}'  { 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  I  hit,  I  think,  Chicago  in  1913.  I  was 
all  over  the  country.    I  left  home. 

Mr.  RoRiNSON.  "\Vliat  were  you  doing  at  that  time  ? 

ISIr,  Campagna,  Just  bumming  around, 

Mr,  Robinson,  You  had  no  source  of  income  at  that  time? 

Mr,  Campagna,  No;  I  was  just  working  and  getting  a  little  money 
and  bumming  around. 

Mr,  Robinson,  How  would  you  get  the  money  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Working. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  get  it  anj'  other  way  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  convicted  of  robbery  at  one  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  was;  in  1919. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  served  time  for  that? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  did,  sir. 

Mr,  Robinson,  How  old  were  you  then  I 

Mr,  Campagna,  About  17,  18. 

Mr,  Robinson,  How  come  you  settled  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr,  Campagna,  Well,  I  guess  it  was  a  good  city  to  live  in, 

Mr,  Robinson.  What  was  that? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  guess  it  was  a  good  city  to  live  in.     I  liked  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  made  up  your  mind  on  that  score  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  the  first  thing  I  had  to  do  my  parole  there. 
Then  I  got  Avorking  there  and  I  stayed  there. 

]\Ir,  Robinson,   >Vhere  were  you  working? 

Mr,  Campagna,  A  print  shop,  I  think  it  is  Van  Buren  and  Market, 
or  Van  Buren  and  Wells, 

Mr,  Robinson,  How  long  did  you  work  there  ? 

Mr,  Campagna,  I  worked  there,  I  would  say,  about  a  year. 

Mr,  Robinson,  Then  what  did  you  do  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  Just  took  odd-and-end  jobs, 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  start  working  for  Al  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  let's  see.  I  would  sa}^  I  was  with  him  for  a 
couple  of  years  around  1927. 

Mr,  Robinson.  When? 

Mr.  Campagna.  1927. 

Mr.  Robinson,  He  brought  you  to  Chicago,  didn't  he  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  No,  sir ;  he  did  not. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COAEMERCE  63 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  Who  brought  you  there? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  brought  myself  there. 

Mr.  EoBixsox.  How  did  you  first  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  was  hanging  around  the  saloon  where  he  was 
delivering. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Where  he  was  what? 

Mv.  Campagxa.  Delivering. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Delivering  beer,  I  guess. 

Mr.  EoBixsox.  That  was  during  prohibition  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Mr,  RoBixsox.  Tell  us  how  you  happened  to  meet  him. 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  is  the  way  1  met  him  in  the  saloon.  I  asked 
him  for  a  job  and  went  to  work  for  him. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  kind  of  a  job? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Just  ''tailing"  merchandise. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Tailing  merchandise? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  does  that  mean  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Like  alcohol  and  beer. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  I  don't  understand.     Tailing  it? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  RoBixsoN.  How  do  you  tail  it? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Just  watching  it,  seeing  nobody  robs  it. 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  Were  you  armed  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Xever  was  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Well,  yes,  I  have  been  armed. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  When  did  you  first  start  putting  on  arms? 

Mr.  Ca3ipagxa.  When  I  got  in  that  trouble  in  1919. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  start  after  you  had  formed  this  acquaint- 
ance with  Capone  and  started  working  for  him? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Xo,  I  didn't.     I  stopped  after  I  come  out. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  never  had  a  gun  on  while  you  were  working  for 
Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  was  arrested  and  accused  of  having  a  gun  on  me 
in  1927  or  1928, 1  am  sure. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  have  a  gun  on  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Yes. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  So  you  did  have  a  gun  on  at  one  time  while  you  were 
working  for  Capone? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  That  is  while  you  were  tailing? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  No,  I  wasn't  doing  nothing.  I  got  arrested  in  the 
morning  downtown. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  also  drive  for  Capone,  chauffeur? 

]Mr.  CAMPAGXA.  Xo,  I  drove  several  times  out  to  the  dog  track  with 
him,  but  I  wouldn't  say  I  was  a  chauffeur.  I  mean  there  were  other 
people  around  that  were  chauffeurs,  but  sometimes  he  asked  me  to 
drive  and  I  drove  him  out. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  were  one  of  his  bodyguards,  weren't  you  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  wouldn't  say  that. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Well,  were  you  or  weren't  you? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Xo. 


64  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTA'T'E    C0M]VOT:RCE 

Mr,  Robinson.  Never  was  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No.     I  may  be  accused  of  a  lot  of  things. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  times  were  you  arrested? 

Mr.  Campagna.  On  numerous  times.  I  just  don't  recall  about  how 
many. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Greenberg? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes ;  I  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Oh,  I  have  known  him,  I  would  say,  a  few  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  About  the  time  you  met  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  it  was  away  after  that. 

Mr,  Robinson.  What  was  your  actual  business  with  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  just  explained,  just  working  for  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  get  for  that  i 

Mr.  Campagna.  About  $50  a  week. 

JNIr,  Robinson.  Did  you  get  anything  else  from  any  other  source  at 
that  time  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  ;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  have  been  your  union  acti^nties  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  None. 

Mr,  Robinson,  No  connection  with  any  union  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  at  any  time  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  involved  in  any  union  litigation? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  yes ;  in  this  extortion  of  1943,  I  was. 

Mr,  Robinson.  Prior  to  that  ? 

Mr,  Campagna,  Prior  to  that,  I  was  not.  It  goes  back.  It  is  a 
conspiracy,  they  say,  to  1934—35. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Frank  Nitti  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wlien  did  you  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  met  Frank  around  1928  or  1929,  something  like 
that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  stated  you  know  Paul  Ricca  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr,  Robinson,  What  was  Paul  Ricca's  connection  with  Al  Capone! 

Mr,  Campagna,  That  I  never  did  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  did  know  that  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right.'' 

Mr,  Robinson,  Well,  you  knew  it  was  a  close  association? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  ;  I  wouldn't  say  that.  To  me  the  man  was  close 
with  a  lot  of  people.  I  couldn't  say  which  one  was  close  and  which 
wasn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Name  some  he  was  close  to. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  he  was  close  to  Ricca  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Not  that  I  know  of, 

Mr,  Robinson,  How  about  Murray  Humphreys  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  I  don't  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  say  I  don't  know.  You  say  was  he  close  to  Al. 
I  don't  know. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  65 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  liave  you  known  him? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  have  known  Humphreys  for  a  few  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long? 

JNIr.  Campagna.  Eight  or  seven  years. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  ever  associated  in  business  with  him? 

Mr.  Campagna.  None  whatever. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  was  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  had  any  knowledge  of  what  business 
he  was  in? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson,  Or  what  his  source  of  income  was  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Jack  Guzik  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  Iniow  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Ten  or  12  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Campx\gna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  ever  associated  with  him? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Before?  If  you  call  associated  meeting  him  in 
the  cafe  for  dinner 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  me  put  it  this  way.  Were  you  ever  associated 
with  him  in  any  business  activity  in  connection  with  gambling? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Fred  Evans? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Fred  Evans,  I  have  known  him  for  quite  a  few 
years. 

Mr.  Robinson,  What  business  was  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  you  ever  associated  in  business  with  him? 

Mr.  Campagna,  No,  sir, 

Mr,  Robinson,  Louis  Romano? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson,  You  knew  him? 

Mr,  Campagna.  Yes;  I  do. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  what  business  ? 

Mr.  Campagna,  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Danny  Stanton? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr,  Robinson,  Joe  Fusco  ? 

Mr,  Campagna,  No,  sir, 

Mr.  Robinson,  You  know  Pete  Fosco? 

Mr,  Campagna.  I  know  him. 

Mr,  Robinson.  Who  is  he  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Committeeman,  first  ward. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Joe  Fusco? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  the  committeeman? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No, 

Mr.  Robinson,  Who  is  Joe  Fusco  ? 


66  ORGANIZE'D    CRIME'   IN    INTEIRSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  lie  is  in  tlie  liquor  business  if  I  am  not 
mistaken.  I  am  not  positive  of  that,  what  he  is,  but  that  is  what  I 
think  it  is. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  never  in  business  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  ;  I  was  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Johnny  Patton  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No;  I  was  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Know  of  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  met  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know  whether  I  did  or  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Phil  D'Andrea  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  I  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  lon<^  have  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  have  known  him  for  a  few  years  previous  to  this 
trouble. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  was  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Ralph  Pearce? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  A  few  years  before  this  trouble. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  been  associated  in  business  with  him? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir ;  I  was  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  work  for  the  Fischettis  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  them  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Know  of  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Know  of  them? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Ever  met  them  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  Charles. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  your  connection  with  Charles? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Dinner,  no  connection  at  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  meet  him? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  don't  know.  I  think  it  was  at  the  Chez 
Paree  at  one  time  having  dinner. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  it  at  tlie  time  you  were  working  for  Capone? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No;  I  don't  think  so.     I  think  it  was  after  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  your  first  meeting  of  any  of  these  people  occur 
while  you  were  working  for  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Some  may  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  fact,  it  was  most  of  them;  wasn't  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  ;  I  wouldn't  say  most  of  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  go  under  the  name  of  Carmini? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes;  I  did. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  judge  around  1930.     I  used  it  once  or  twice. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  other  names  have  you  gone  under  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  just  can't  recall  offhand.  Many  times  I  would 
stop  in  the  hotel  and  give  a  fictitious  name. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  you  go  under  the  name  of  Carmini  for? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME-   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  67 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  '\Miat  ayohIcI  you  chanfje  your  name  for? 
Mr.  Campagna.  I  would  do  it  many  times  when  I  stopped  at  the 
hotel  and  just  give  my  name, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Some  particular  reason  for  it  ? 

IVIr.  Campagna.  No  ;  there  was  no  reason  for  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "V\niere  did  you  acquire  the  name  "Little  New  York"  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  was  pinned  on  me  by  the  newspapers. 

Mr.  Robinson,  Because  you  originally  came  from  New  York? 

Mr.  Campagna.  From  Brooklyn ;  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Jack  McGurn  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  did  know  him ;  yes, 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  he  do  ? 

Mr.  Campagna,  That  I  don't  know, 

Mr,  Robinson,  You  have  no  knowledge  of  what  Jack  McGurn  did  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  work  for  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Frankie  and  Mike  Kelly  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  of  them. 

]Mr,  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  learn  about  them  or  meet  them  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know.  Casually  being  in  the  booking  game 
at  that  time,  you  met  a  lot  of  people,  I  guess  every  one  of  them  played 
horses  or  liked  to  play  horses. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  meet  them  while  working  with  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  didn't  work  with  Capone  very  long,  so  I  don't 
know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  did  you  work  for  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  A  couple  of  years  at  tops.  I  don't  think  it  was  even 
a  couple  of  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Always  at  the  same  pay  ? 

Mv.  Campagna.  That  is  all  I  ever  got  from  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  $50  a  week  ? 

:Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right,  and  that  is  why  I  left. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Ernie  Rossick  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  never  knew  him. 

Mr.  Robinson,  James  and  Rocco  Belcastro  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Rocco  Finelli  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Frank  Diamond? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes ;  I  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  he  do  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Campagna,  how  is  it  that  you  know  these 
people,  and  you  know  some  of  them  pretty  well,  and  you  do  not  know 
what  they  do  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  usually  you  don't  ask  people  their  business, 
how  they  make  their  money,  or  religion,  or  politics.  If  they  volun- 
teered, the  only  tiling  I  could  say  is  what  they  told  me.  If  you  meet 
a  man  in  the  cafe  or  book,  j^ou  are  not  sociable  with  him. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  know  them,  you  know  what  they  do. 

Mr.  Campagna,  A  fellow  could  surmise  that  they  are  bookmaking, 
but  it  would  be  foolish  for  me  to  say  what  I  surmised. 


68  O'RGANIZED   CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  have  your  surmise  of  what  Jack  McGurn  did. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  his  nickname? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  never  did  know  his  nickname. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  he  had  a  nickname  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  never  asked.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  it  was  "Macliine  Gun"  Jack  McGurn. 

Mr.  Campagna.  If  you  say  so.  That  is  what  the  papers  say.  I 
will  have  to  say  "Yes,"  because  I  read  that,  but  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Claude  Maddox  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long? 

Mr.  Campagna.  A  few  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  What  I  know,  I  think  he  was  interested  in  some 
kind  of  saloon  out  there  in  Cicero.  I  don't  know.  That  is  just 
hearsay. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Sam  Hunt. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  of  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  know  of  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  met  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  James  Ragen  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Patrick  Burns  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  any  people  connected  with  the  wire 
service  business  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Hymie  Levin  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  Hymie ;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  know  Hymie  for  quite  a  few  years.  I  met  him  at 
Mayo  Bros. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Bookmaking,  I  surmise.  I  cannot  positively  say. 
You  are  asking  me  to  surmise.    I  am  just  giving  you  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Roy  Jones? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  any  of  the  Kelly s  of  the  wire  service 
business  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  this  fellow  Curry  ? 

Mr,  Campagna.  I  know  of  him. 

The  Chairman.  You  know  him  personally  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes ;  I  met  him. 

The  Chairman.  He  was  in  the  wire  service  business,  was  he  not? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Not  that  I  know  of.  I  read  about  this  wire  stuff 
while  I  was  in  the  penitentiary.    I  never  heard  about  it  before. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  visited  you  in  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  My  wife,  my  cliildren,  my  lawyer,  Mr.  Bernstein. 


J 


ORGANIZED   CRIMEl  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  69 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  How  did  you  happen  to  retain  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Who? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Bernstein. 

Mr.  Campagna.  My  wife  retained  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  To  handle  what? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Our  income  tax. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Had  he  worked  on  your  taxes  before  you  went  to 
prison? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No.  After  I  went  to  prison  is  when  all  this  came 
up.  They  put  a  lien  on  the  farm  and  my  wife's  property  and  all,  and 
she  retained  a  lawyer. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  owe  on  j^our  income  tax? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Personally  I  would  say  nothing. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  put  it  this  way.  How  much  did  the  Gov- 
ernment allege  that  you  owed? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  the  figures  were — newspaper  figures  I  have 
to  go  by — the  rest  of  the  sheets  are  in  there,  the  whole  case  in  is 
there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  your  lawyer  tell  you  how  much  you  owed? 

]Mr,  Campagna.  According  to  the  figures  it  was  $480,000.  That  is 
with  interest  and  penalty  or  whatever  it  is.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  Berstein  tell  you  how  much  you  owed? 

Mr.  Campagna.  How  do  you  mean? 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  learned  it  from  the  newspapers. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  the  first  I  ever  got  it,  from  the  newspapers. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  was  it  paid? 

Mr.  Campagna.  What  do  you  mean,  how  was  it  paid  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  There  was  a  compromise  settlement  on  your  tax 
return. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  a  compromise.  It  was 
a  court  decision. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Anyway,  you  paid  some  money  to  the  Government. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  pay  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  the  money  to  pay  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  was  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  it  was  $80,000  or  $89,000  plus  the  interest, 
whatever  that  was. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  you  yourself  owed? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir;  myself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  apart  from  what  DeLucia  owed. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  had  nothing  to  do  with  DeLucia.  His  case  was 
separate  from  mine. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  was  the  money  paid? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  how  it  was  paid  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  not  asking  you  if  you  know  who  paid  it. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Bernstein  ever  tell  you  how  it  was  paid  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  what  I  heard  at  the  congressional  meeting, 
I  heard  how  he  said  it  was  paid. 


70  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson".  Was  that  the  first  time  you  ever  heard  how  it  was 
paid  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  What  year  was  that? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  think  it  was  1946.  I  was  in  the  penitentiary  at 
that  time. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Didn't  Bernstein  tell  you  how  it  was  paid  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  never  asked  him.     He  just  said  it  was  paid. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  told  you  while  you  were  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  are  not  going  to  expect  us  to  believe  that? 

Mr.  Campagna.  It  sounds  fantastic,  but  it  is  true. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  sounds  like  a  lie. 

Mr.  Campagna.  You  can  put  it  that  way,  sir.  I  am  trying  to  ex- 
plain the  way  he  explained. 

Mr.  Halley.  Don't  expect  the  committee  to  accept  the  statement 
that  the  lawyer  told  you  that  the  money  was  paid  and  you  didn't  ask 
how  it  was  paid. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  just  explained  to  you  that  the  first  time  that  I 
knew  it  was  at  the  congressional  hearing.  People  brought  the  money 
and  he  paid  it. 

]Mr.  Halley.  You  said  you  didn't  even  ask  him  when  he  told  you 
in  person  how  it  was  paid  for  j^ou. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Let  me  get  that  straight. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  said  your  lawyer  came  to  see  you  in  person. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  said  you  didn't  ask  him  how  he  got  the  money 
a]id  where  he  got  it  or  who  gave  it  to  him. 

Mr.  Campagna.  At  that  time  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  don't  believe  it. 

The  Chairman.  Why  didn't  you  ask  him  ? 

]Mr.  Campagna.  I  didn't  ask.  He  did  not  talk  about  money  at  all. 
He  said,  "Your  tax  was  settled."  The  only  time  I  heard  about  it  was 
in  1947  when  we  went  before  Congress. 

The  Chairman.  Would  it  not  be  a  natural  question  since  $120,000 
was  paid  on  your  behalf,  that  j^ou  would  ask? 

Mr.  Campagna.  He  didn't  tell  me  even  the  figures. 

The  Ciix\iRMAN.  You  knew  it  was  a  very  large  amount. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  didn't  know,  because  I  was  getting  accused  of  a 
lot  of  things  in  that  settlement  that  I  didn't  think  it  would  ever  be( 
that  much. 

The  Chairman.  You  knew  it  was  a  large  amount  that  they  claimed 
you  owed,  and  you  did  not  inquire  wdio  paid  it  and  how  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Wlien  I  got  home  I  inquired.  He  said  he  didn't^ 
know.    That  is  how  I  found  out  at  the  Congress. 

The  Chairman.  Did  he  not  come  to  the  prison  and  tell  you?  Did 
you  not  ask  him  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  He  just  said  it  was  paid  and  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  tell  you  how  much? 

Mr.  Campagna.  $80,000  or^$89,000  and  interest. 

Mr.  Robinson.  At  the  time  you  were  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  he  didn't.    At  the  congressional 

The  Chairman,  What  is  your  best  idea  about  who  paid  that  money  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  I  don't  know. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    ESTTERSTATE    COMMERCE  71 

The  CiiAiRMAX.  You  must  have  some  theory  about  it.  Either  it 
would  have  to  be  your  family  or  friends  or  somebody  that  was  under 
obligation  to  you  or  that  you  had  done  something  for.  Your  family 
did  not  pay  it,  did  they? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  No. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  your  theory  about  it  ? 

ISIr.  Campagxa.  It  must  have  been  some  friends  who  paid  it,  but  I 
have  never  found  out.     It  couldn't  have  been  strangers. 

The  Chairman.  Strangers  would  never  have  come  in  and  put  up 
$120,000. 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  is  right. 

The  CiiAiRMAX.  You  must  have  some  idea  who  paid  it.  Who  do 
you  think  paid  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  That  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairmax.  You  may  not  know,  but  what  is  your  best  judg- 
ment ? 

Mr,  Campagxa.  I  hesitate  to  mention  names,  because  I  wouldn't 
have  an  idea  who  paid.     I  thought  it  would  come  out  before  this. 

The  Chairmax.  Do  you  think  Mr.  Bulger  paid  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  couldn't  say. 

The  Chairmax.  He  was  head  of  some  organization  that  you  be- 
longed to,  wasn't  he  ? 

]\Ir.  Campagxa.  That  I  belong  ? 

The  Chairmax.  Yes. 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  don't  belong  to  no  organization. 

The  Chairmax.  I  mean  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Campagxa.  No  ;  I  don't  belong  to  no  organization  at  that  time 
or  any  other  time. 

The  Chairmax.  You  say  you  tried  to  find  out  who  paid  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  No  ;  I  saicl  I  never  did,  because  I  can't. 

The  Chairmax.  Why  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  Because  the  people  I  associated  with  know  I  am  on 
parole  and  I  have  been  staying  away  from  anybody.  If  anybody 
same  down  to  Bernstein  and  gave  the  money,  just  like  I  tell  the  parole 
division,  I  show  them  what  they  wanted. 

The  Chairmax.  You  made  no  effort  to  find  out. 

Mr.  Campagxa.  I  have  not  associated  with  anybody. 

The  Chairmax.  Have  you  made  any  effort  to  find  out  who  paid  the 
money  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  No  ;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Do  you  mean  Bernstein  came  to  you  in  prison  and 
just  said  the  money  is  paid  ? 

Mr.  Campagxa.  When  he  came  down  there,  I  asked  him  how  is  the 
tax  getting  along.  The  last  time  he  came  down  he  was  not  very  long, 
just  in  and  out.  and  if  my  memory  serves  me  right,  he  came  to  find  out 
about  certain  years.  I  said,  "I  don't  know;  you  will  have  to  see  the 
auditor."  He  got  together  with  the  auditor  and  when  he  came  back  he 
visited  me  three  or  four  times,  the  last  time  was  the  latter  part  of  1946, 
which  the  record  will  show,  and  he  said  to  me  that  it  was  all  straight- 
ened out  or  on  the  verge  of  it.     The  next  I  heard  about  the  tax  was 

Mr.  KoBiNsox.  Let  us  stop  there.  He  said  to  you  in  prison  it  is  all 
straightened  out. 

Mr.  Campagxa.  The  tax  situation  is  straightened  out. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  ask  him  how  ? 


72  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.    Campagna.  I   supposed   tlirougli   court.     I   don't   know   the 
process. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  knew  there  was  money  owed. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ask  him,  "Well,  did  my  wife  give  you  the 
money?" 

Mr.  Campagna.  No,  I  didn't  ask  him  anything.  To  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  I  didn't.     I  just  took  it  for  granted  it  was  taken  care  of. 

Mr.  Robinson.  By  being  taken  care  of,  it  was  paid  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  didn't  ask  where  he  got  the  money  to  pay  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  From  your  wife  or  somebody  else  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  ask  him  about  that  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  have  a  big  amount  of  money  put  away  at 
that  time  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  wouldn't  say  a  big  amount.     I  had  some  money. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  judge  around  $30,000. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ask  him  whether  he  used  that  money  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  He  wouldn't  know  where  to  get  it  and  nobody  else 
would. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "Wliere  did  you  have  it  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  had  it  hidden. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  asked  you  if  you  had  any  money  around  the  house 
and  you  said  the  most  you  had  Avas  seven  or  eight  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  was  in  your  house. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Apparently  you  had  some  at  some  place  outside  of 
the  house  that  was  not  in  a  bank  or  safe  deposit. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  was  that? 

Mr.  Campagna.  It  was  in  some  fellow's  house. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  was  the  fellow  ? 

(No  response.) 

The  Chairman.  That  is  a  proper  question. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  I  will  be  frank,  I  had  it  at  home.  I  didn't 
want  my  wife  or  nobody  to  know  about  it.  I  was  going  to  go  away 
for  quite  a  while  and  I  didn't  know 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  had  it  hidden  in  your  own  home? 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now,  you  are  either  lying  now  or  you  were  before. 
You  said  it  was  in  another  fellow's  house.  You  said  it  was  not  in 
your  house.  You  are  trying  not  to  tell  the  committee  where  you  had 
it.  As  counsel  for  the  committee,  I  would  advise  the  committee  not  to 
accept  the  answer. 

The  Chairman.  You  said  it  was  in  somebody's  house. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  were  definite  about  it. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  would  like  to  retract  the  statement. 

Mr.  Halley.  Your  retraction  has  no  effect  at  all,  because  the  way 
you  testified,  it  is  quite  clear  it  was  not  in  your  own  house,  that  it  was 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  73 

in  somebody  else's  house,  and  after  the  chairman  told  you  you  had  to 
answer  the  question,  and  say  in  whose  house  it  was,  you  changed  your 
testimony.  You  are  lying  either  now  or  then.  Which  way  do  you 
want  to  have  it.  Either  way  you  are  committing  perjury.  Which 
way  do  you  want  it? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  had  it  at  home. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  you  were  lying  when  you  told  the  committee 
it  was  in  somebody  else's  house  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  wasn't  lying.    I  just  said  somebody  else's  house. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  was  a  lie,  wasn't  it?    It  was  untrue,  was  it  not? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  wouldn't  say  it  was  untrue. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  would  say  it  was  untrue.  You  said  it.  You  used 
those  words,  did  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  did. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  knew  what  you  were  saying? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No  I  didn't  know  what  I  was  saying. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  didn't  know  what  you  were  saying  when  you  said 
it  was  in  somebody  else's  house? 

Mr.  Campagna.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  are  lying  again.  This  is  the  third  lie  when  you 
say  that  you  didn't  know^  what  you  were  saying. 

INIr.  Campagna.  I  just  told  you  that  I  had  it  home.  I  didn't  want 
anybody  to  know  where  I  had  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  told  Mr.  Robinson  quite  definitely  that  you  didn't 
have  it  home.  Then  you  had  it  in  somebody's  house.  Then  he  asked 
whose  house,  and  you  hesitated  to  answer,  and  the  chairman  said  you 
had  to  answer.  Then  you  changed  your  testimony  and  you  said  you 
had  it  in  your  own  house.  Now,  one  or  the  othei'^  statement  was  untrue, 
is  that  not  so  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  suppose. 

Mr.  Halley.  Well,  isn't  it? 

The  Chairman.  Where  did  you  have  the  money  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  had  it  home. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  asked  you  a  short  while  ago  how  much  money  you 
had  in  your  house  and  you  told  me,  I  believe,  seven  or  eight  thousand 
dollars. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Now  you  are  telling  me  that  you  had  $30,000  in  your 
house. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  said  around  $30,000, 1  am  not  sure. 

Mr.  Robinson.  So  when  I  asked  you  how^  much  you  had  in  the  house 
previously,  you  didn't  tell  me  the  total  amount  that  you  had  in  the 
house. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Well,  that  is  w^hat  I  meant. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  other  words,  you  didn't  intend  to  say  anything 
about  the  $30,000  that  you  had  hidden  somewhere. 

Mr,  Campagna.  No;  I  would  say  something.  The  question  would 
come  up  about  the  income,  and  I  w  ould  tell  you  about  it,  and  I  would 
tell  the  truth  about  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  realize  you  perjured  yourself  wdth  one  answer 
or  tlie  other. 

Mr.  Cajnipagna.  I  am  telling  you  the  truth.  You  are  asking  ques- 
tions and  I  am  giving  you  the  best  of  my  knowledge. 

68958 — 51 — pt.  5 6 


74  ORGANIZED   CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  H.MXEY.  I  think  yon  are  doino-  the  opposite. 

Mv.  C'a:mi'ac;xa.  I  don't  think  so.     You  misunderstand  me  m  a  lot 

The  CnAiR:*rAN.  I  think  it  might  be  very  well  for  the  committee  to 
o-o  back  over  this  record  and  review  the  questions  and  answers,  and 
see  if  this  witness  has  perjured  himself.  After  all,  he  is  on  parole. 
I  think  we  mioht  have  a  short  recess  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  H ALLEY.  I  a.o-ree. 

The  CiLMRMAN.  Will  you  wait  outside,  Mr.  Campagna,  while  we 
go  over  this  matter  ? 

Mr.  Campagna.  Yes,  sir. 

(A  short  recess  was  taken.)  .  ^    ^ 

The  CiiAiRMAX.  Mr.  Campagna,  the  committee  is  not  satished  with 
the  answei^  you  have  given  to  this  question  about  where  the  money 
was.  You  have  given  two  different  answers.  So  that  unless  you  have 
some  further  statement  you  want  to  make  about  anything,  we  will 
have  no  further  questions  to  ask  you  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Campagna.  That  is  the  only  thing.  I  told  you  the  truth.  1 
had  it  at  home.  I  just  didn't  want  to  divulge  I  had  it  at  home.  Not 
that  I  made  any  wrong  statements  here  or  anything  else.  A  lot  of 
things  you  asked  me  naturally  a  person  cannot  remember  15  or  18 
years  ago,  7  or  8  or  10  years  ago.  I  am  trying  to  do  the  best  I  can. 
I  am  not  here  to  lie  to  you  or  hurt  anybody. 

The  Chairman.  Do  vou  have  any  other  statement  you  want  to  make  ? 

Mv.  Ca^ipagna.  Weil,  that  is  all  I  can  say.  I  have  answered  truth- 
fully everything  I  have  known.     I  have  tried  my  best  to  the  best  of  my 

knowledge.  -,         -,   •  ^  j> 

The  Chair^ian.  We  will  take  this  matter  under  advisement  tor 
future  action,  but  I  see  no  reason  for  going  on.  You  will  remain  under 
subpena,  Mr.  Campagna. 

Mr.  Campagna.  Do  I  have  to  stay  here  in  town? 

The  Chair^ian.  You  do  not  have  to  stay  in  town,  but  when  you  are 
notified  to  come  back  or  subject  to  any  further  action  of  the  Senate, 
jou  will  appear. 

Mv.  Campagna.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Campagna.  I  hope  I  done  the  best  I  could  for  you. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Gioe,  will  you  hold  up  your  right  hand? 

Do  you  solemnly  swear  that  the  testimony  you  give  this  committee 
will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help 
you  God? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  do. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  Mr.  Kobinson. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  GIOE,  CHICAGO,  ILL. 

Mv.  Robinson.  Will  you  state  your  full  name? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Charles  Gioe. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  spelled  G-i-o-e  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  your  residence  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  200  East  Chestnut  Street. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Chicago? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  75 

Mr.  RoBiisrsoN.  IVliat  is  that  place  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Seneca  Hotel. 

Mr.  TvOBixsox.  Mr.  Gioe,  you  were  served  witli  a  subpena  to  produce 
certain  books  and  records    This  is  a  copy  of  it? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  have  one  in  my  pocket. 

The  Chairmax.  Let  that  be  marked  "Exhibit  No.  12.-' 
(Exhibit  Xo.  12  appears  in  the  appendix  on  p.  1380.) 

Mr.  RoBiNSOx.  Do  3'ou  liave  the  books  and  records  to  produce  in 
compliance  with  that  subpena? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  income-tax  returns  from  1941  and  1942.  I  asked 
the  auditor  and  he  didn't  know  if  he  could  find  1943.  He  just  gave  me 
copies  because  his  records  are  under  subpena. 

Mr.  RoBixsox,  "\"\nio  is  that? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Bernard  Shaeffer.  I  have  my  record  here  of  1948  and 
1949  . 

]\Ir.  RoBiNsox.  Will  j^ou  produce  those,  please  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  ]Mr.  Gioe,  let  us  take  these  hurriedly.  Here  is  a 
group  of  records  tied  together  with  elastic  bands.  Can  vou  identify 
these?  ^ 

Mr.  Gioe.  Them  are  checks. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Those  are  canceled  checks? 

]Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  bank  statements. 

Mr.  Gioe.  They  are  in  there.  I  told  the  auditor  to  get  everything 
he  possibly  could. 

The  Chairmax.  Let  those  be  marked  "Exhibit  No.  13." 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Let  us  make  the  book  marked  "Work  sheets,  balance 
sheets,  bank  reconciliations,"  exhibit  No.  14. 

The  Chairmax.  That  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record  as  such. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  A  black  ledger  book,  exhibit  No.  15. 

The  Chairmax.  That  will  be  a  part  of  the  record. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  An  envelope  containing  balance  sheets,  exhibit 
No.  16. 

The  Chairmax.  It  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record. 

Mr.  GiFE.  This  is  a  penciled  copy  of  my  1941  tax  return. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Do  you  have  a  copy  ? 

]Mr.  Gioe.  It  is  under  subpena  by  this  auditor. 

]Mr.  RoBixsox.  He  gave  you  a  copy  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  He  gave  me  a  penciled  copy. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  The  penciled  copy  of  income  tax,  1941,  and  1942, 
exhibit  No.  17. 

The  Chairmax.  Let  it  be  filed  and  made  a  part  of  the  record. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  else  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  This  is  for  1949, 1  believe. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Tax  return  for  1948,  exhibit  No.  18,  and  a  tax  return 
for  1949,  a  copy  thereof,  exhibit  No.  19. 

Tlie  Chairmax.  It  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record. 

(Exhibits  No.  13,  14,  15,  16,  17,  18,  and  19  were  returned  to  witness 
after  analysis  by  the  committee.) 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Are  these  all  the  records  that  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Those  are  the  only  ones  I  could  get  at  this  time. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Does  your  auditor  have  all  the  other  records  ? 


76  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  claims  lie  doesn't  have  1943  or  1940,  and  I  couldn't 
remember  at  the  time  just  who  filed  the  1940  record. 

Mr.  EoBiNSOx.  Do  you  have  any  other  records  that  are  called  for 
by  the  subpena  in  any  other  place  other  than  your  own  possession  or  in 
Mr.  Shaeffer's  possession  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  None,  sir ;  I  don't  believe. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  made  a  search  for  those  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Well,  I  didn't  have  much  time.  I  was  notified  that 
morning  to  get  the  records  and  come  on  down  here,  so  I  just  went 
to  my  bookkeeper  in  my  office  and  had  him  get  the  stuff.  I  tried  to 
get  1941, 1942,  but  all  I  could  get  is  1942  from  him. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Mr.  Chairman,  might  I  suggest  that  the  witness 
be  instructed  to  make  such  a  search  to  see  whether  or  not  he  has  any 
other  records  in  any  other  place,  and  that  they  be  delivered  ?  _ 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Gioe,  you  make  a  search  and  see  if  you  can 
find  the  records.  Mr.  Eobinson  will  be  in  touch  with  you,  and  fol- 
low his  instructions  by  delivering  the  records  to  him. 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  at  the  present  time  a  parolee  or  you  are 
released  from  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  connection  with  the  movie  extortion  case? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  old  are  you,  Mr.  Gioe  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Forty-six. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  always  been  a  resident  of  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wliat  properties  do  you  own? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Myself,  I  don't  own  any  property. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  interest  in  any  real  estate  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  stocks  or  bonds  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  had  since  1940  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  had  an  interest  in  a  restaurant  known  as  the  Beach- 
combers, in  Chicago.    That  was  the  last  interest. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  have  that  interest? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  believe  I  sold  it  in  1942  or  1943. 

.  Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  books  or  records  which  show  that 
interest  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  acquire  it  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  went  into  the  business  with  these  people  at  the  begin- 
ning, at  the  inception  of  the  business.  I  made  the  suggestion  to  operate 
that  type  of  restaurant  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  it  solely  a  restaurant  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  a  gambling  establishment  in  it? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  records  to  show  that  interest  in  the 
restaurant  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes ;  I  will  have  to  get  these  people  that  have  the  restau- 
rant and  get  the  back  records  up  to  the  time  that  I  was  with  them. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  77 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  put  money  into  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  invest  in  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  believe  it  was  1939.  I  don't  know  whether  it  was  $7,500 
or  thereabouts. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  agreement? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  With  the  other  parties  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Written  agreement  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  have  a  copy  of  that  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No.  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  have  a  copy  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  owned  17  percent  of  the  stock. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  the  shares  of  stock  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  had  the  shares  of  stock. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  disposed  of  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  other  interest  in  any  business 
other  than  this  one  that  you  have  just  mentioned  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Since  what  year? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  go  back  to  the  years  prior  to  the  time  you 
went  to  prison. 

Mr.  GioE.  Well,  I  had  a  very  small  interest  in  the  Seneca  Hotel. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  acquire  that  interest  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  if  it  was  1937  or  1938. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  amount  of  the  interest  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  made  $2,500  profit  on  the  deal.  I  never  knew 
just  what  extent  my  interest  would  be  in  there.  I  had  some  stock- 
holdings with  Mr.  Greenberg,  of  which  I  never  knew  the  amount. 
A  year  later  or  2  j-ears  later,  we  sold  out.  I  got  $2,500  for  my  interest 
in  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  put  into  it. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  think  I  bouo-ht  $12,000  worth  of  stock. 

Mr.  Robinson.  $12,000  worth  of  stock? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  asked  you  to  buy  the  stock? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Mr.  Greenberg. 

Mr.  Robinson,  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  would  say  15  or  16  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  made  a  $2,500  profit? 

Mr.  GioE,  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  sold  the  stock  when  ? 

Mr,  GioE.  I  believe  it  was  1939. 

Mr.  Robinson.  1939  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  am  not  too  sure  about  the  years.  One  of  my  tax  returns 
here  may  show  it.     I  made  $2,500  on  the  investment. 

Mr,  Robinson,  Is  that  the  only  investment  you  ever  made  ? 

Mr,  GioE.  With  Mr.  Greenberg? 

Mr.  Robinson.  No.  Anywhere  else  outside  of  the  one  you  men- 
tioned about  the  restaurant. 

Mr,  GiOE,  If  I  made  any  others,  it  was  very  small. 

Mr.  Robinson.  All  right. 


78  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  What  about  the  construction  company.  Are  you 
not  a  partner  in  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  since  you  have  been  on  parole? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  go  into  that? 

Mr.  GioE.  April  of  1949. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AVho  owns  that  company? 

Mr.  GioE.  We  are  partners,  Pantaleo  and  myself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Spell  it. 

Mr.  GioE.  P-a-n-t-a-1-e-o. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  is  he  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  just  came  out  of  the  JSIarines,  and  he  was  a  combat 
engineer,  and  he  didn't  have  any  money,  and  he  spoke  to  me  about 
gonig  into  business.  I  knew  the  construction  business,  so  I  went  with 
him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How^  much  did  you  put  up  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  $5,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  you  get  that? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  had  some  money. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  that  out  of  your  savings? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  are  a  partner  with  him  in  that  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  value  of  that  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  think 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  it  a  corporation? 

Mr.  GioE.  No;  it  is  a  partnership.  I  imagine  I  have  about,  it  is 
worth  to  me  about  eleven  or  twelve  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Steel  construction  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No;  construction.  We  ]ust  construct  anything  that  you 
want. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  people  do  you  employ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  we  have  about  10,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Had  you  previous  experience  in  that  business  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  get  into  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  met  this  Pantaleo  and  as  I  told  you,  I  have  known  him 
since  he  was  a  youth.  He  just  came  out  of  the  Marines  and  he  w^as 
in  the  combat  engineers,  and  he  had  started  this  business  himself.  He 
didn't  have  enough  money.  He  thought  with  a  little  more  money  he 
could  develop  and  take  on  more  work.  So  at  the  time  I  just  been 
released  the  second  time  from  the  penitentiary,  and  I  thought  that  the 
opportunity  was  all  right,  and  I  went  in  with  this  lad. 

Mr.  Robinson.  This  was  in  1949? 

Mr.  GioE.  1949. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  have  you  built  since  you  have  been  in  business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  we  finislied  one  outdoor  theater  in  Elgin,  111.,  and 
are  biulding  one  now  in  Blue  Island,  111.  We  worked  for  the  parks, 
board  of  trade,  the  Cradle  Society  in  Evanston.  We  remodeled  a 
building  for  them.     And  a  number  of  jobs  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Since  1949,  how  much  profit  have  vou  made  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  the  first  year  I  think  we  made  about  $5,600.  Right 
now  we  are  about  fourteen  or  fifteen  thousand  ahead.  This  year  so 
far 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE:  79 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  had  a  distribution  of  profit? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  because  the  more  you  expand  the  business,  the  more 
money  you  need,  and  I  have  kept  the  money  in  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "Wliat  do  you  get. out  of  the  business,  a  salary  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  take  any  salary,  I  have  a  drawing  account.  If 
J  want  money,  I  draw  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  see.    How  much  do  you  usually  draw  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  haven't  drawn  any. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AVhat  do  you  live  on  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  some  money. 

Mr,  Robinson,  Where  do  you  have  it  ? 

Mr,  GioE,  Well,  I  have  got  some  put  away. 

The  Chairman,  We  are  not  trying  to  get  your  money,  but  we  want 
to  know  where  you  keep  your  money  and  how  much  you  have  got, 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  don't  know 

The  Chairman,  There  is  no  use  in  hesitating.  You  can  tell  use  or 
else. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  even  knoAv 

The  Chairman,  How  much  money  have  you  got  and  where  have 
you  got  it  ? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  don't  have  too  much  money. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  was  not  the  question,    Wliere  is  the  money  ? 

Mr.  GiOE,  Well,  there  is  some  money  in  the  safe  at  the  office,  at  the 
hotel,  and  my  wife's  account  in  the  bank, 

Mr,  Robinson,  What  is  the  amount  of  your  wife's  account  in  the 
bank  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  maybe  offhand  7  or  8  thousand  dollars. 

Mr,  Robinson,  What  is  the  amount  in  the  safe  at  the  hotel  ? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  would  say  maybe  3  or  4  thousand  dollars, 

Mr,  Robinson,  Where  else  do  you  have  it? 

Mr,  GiOE.  Personally  myself  I  don't  know, 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  mean  you  don't  Iniow  where  your  money  is  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  have  much.  Well,  I  got  $5,000  in  the  business  that 
I  originally  bought. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  got  how  much  at  the  hotel  safe  ? 

Mr.  GiOE,  Yes,  I  say  I  think  I  got  3  or  4  thousand 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  get  it  all  out  individually  and  locate  it,  $5,000 
in  the  business. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes;  $5,000  in  the  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  in  your  wife's  bank  account? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  that  there  is  $7,000.    I  am  not  too  sure, 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  close  enough.  How  much  in  the  safe  in  the 
hotel? 

Mr,  GiOE,  I  would  say  $3,000, 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  at  some  other  place? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  don't  have  any  other  place, 

Mr.  Robinson,  That  is  the  only  place? 

Mr,  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  drawing  account — you  have  no  salary 
from  the  business  ? 

Mr,  GiOE,  No,  sir.    It  is  there ;  if  I  want  it,  I  take  it, 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  not  what  I  am  asking.  How  much  do  you 
draw  out  ^f  the  business  ? 

Mr,  GiOE.  I  haven't  drawn  anything. 


80  -ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  do  you  draw  the  money  to  live  on  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  don't  need  much  to  live  on.    My  wife  pays  the  expenses. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  live  at  the  Seneca  Hotel  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  do  you  pay  there  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  $175  a  month. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  do  you  get  the  money  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  My  wife  pays  it.     She  has  two  restaurants. 

Mr.  Robinson.  All  right.    \Yliere  are  the  restaurants  located? 

Mr.  GiOE.  One  is  located  at  Ogden  Avenue  and  one  at  Damon  and 
Lawrence. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  does  she  make  out  of  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  about  seven  or  eight  thousands  dollars  a  year. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  on  that  you  and  your  wife  live  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  mean  she  is  paying  the  expenses. 

Mr.  Robinson.  She  is  paying  everything  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes ;  she  pays  the  hotel  bills  and  everything. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  have  no  other  income  from  any  other 
source  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Wliat  do  you  do  with  your  spare  time? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  am  working  in  this  business. 

The  Chairman.  You  spend  some  time  out  there  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes.    I  am  instrumental  in  getting  some  of  that  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  came  out  of  the  penitentiary  in  1947  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson,  You  went  into  this  business  in  1949. 

Mr.  GioE.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  put  $5,000  in  it. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  that  $5,000  in  some  box  somewhere  or 
in  a  hotel  safe  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No ;  we  sold  a  piece  of  property  that  my  wife  had,  and  I 
took  the  $5,000  from  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  wife  get  that  property  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  we  bought  a  home  in  1935  and  we  sold  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  sell  it  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Last  year. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  make  on  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  think  it  was  maybe  $4,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  pay  for  the  house  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  $13,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  and  your  wife  have  some  other  property 
somewhere  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  your  wife  have  any  stocks  or  bonds? 

Mr.  GioE.  Not  tliat  I  know  of,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  ^Vliat  did  you  do  from  1947  to  1949? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  worked  for  the  Consolidated  Wire. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Doing  what  ? 

Mr.  Gios.  I  worked  as  assistant  to  the  manager. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  that  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Consolidated  Wire,  a  wire  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Not  a  wire-service  business. 


i 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  81 

Mr.  GiOE.  No.  He  is  the  man  tluit  sponsored  my  parole  for  the  job. 
Consolidated. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Who  is  the  man  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Paul  Mann. 

Mr.  EoBiNsox.  Has  he  always  been  in  that  business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir:  for  40  years. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  work  for  him  before? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsoN.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Just  casually  around  the  restaurant. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Now,  what  businesses  were  you  in  prior  to  the  time 
you  went  into  the  penitentiary  ^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  Prior  to  the  time  I  was  with  the  Beachcomber  and  I  had 
an  interest. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Is  that  a  restaurant? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  And  a  bookie  place. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Xo;  that  is  not  a  bookie  place.  The  Beachcomber  res- 
taurant that  I  spoke  of. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  That  is  the  one  vou  had  an  interest  in  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  is  right.  ]   .  . 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  other  activities  did  you  engage  in? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  had  a  cigar  store  at  Clark  and  Lake. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  long  did  you  have  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Approximately  2  years. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  When  did  j^ou  buy  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  We  opened  it.  We  didn't  buy  it.  We  took  a  store  and 
fitted  it  out. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  When  did  vou  do  that? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  1940  or  1941. 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  And  you  sold  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Xo;  when  I  went  to  jail,  I  just  disbanded  it.  I  broke  the 
thing  up  in  October  1943. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  AVere  you  in  there  yourself  in  that  business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Xo,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Who  was  in  with  j"ou  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Mai  Clark. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Who  was  he?  Was  he  always  in  that  business  or 
some  other  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  is  all  I  know  about  him. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  did  have  an  interest  in  that  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Were  there  anv  others  that  you  had  an  interest  in? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Prior  to  that? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes.  I  was  in  business  with  Ralph  Pearce  and  the  two 
Russell  brothers. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  what  years  were  you  in  business  with  them? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  it  was  1937  to  1940. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  was  a  partnership  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  sort  of  places  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  We  had  an  office  on  State  Street  in  which  we  handled 
some  laj^-offs  on  horses  on  the  books  around  the  city  at  that  time. 


82  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson,  That  was  for  what  years,  now? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  \toiild  say  it  was  1937  to  1940. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  were  yon  in  prior  to  1937? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Prior  to  1937  I  fooled  around  witli  the  printino-  business, 
but  we  didn't  do  hny  good.  Before  that  I  didn't  liave  anytliing  out- 
side of  the  printing,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  last  time  you  saw  Russell? 

Mr.  (tioe.  Harry  Russell? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Oh,  it  has  been  a  long  time  ago.  I  saw  him  one  time 
on  Randolph  Street  when  I  came  out  on  parole. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  seen  him  off  and  on  when  you  came  out  on 
parole? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  I  just  ran  across  him  one  time  on  Randolph 
Street. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  David  Russell  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  not  seen  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  other  partner  was  who,  Ralph  Pearce? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  often  do  you  see  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  not  seen  him.  I  saw  him  one  time  on  Van  Buren 
and  State  Street. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  are  your  friends  there  at  the  Seneca  Hotel? 
You  still  live  there,  don't  you? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  are  your  friends  there  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  have 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  are  the  people  you  visit  back  and  forth  with 
at  the  hotel,  you  and  your  wife? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  a  sponsor  who  lives  in  the  building,  Louis  Pelton. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  are  some  of  the  others  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Sidney  Korshak. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else  ? 

Mr.  GiOE,  Well,  Mr.  Greenberg  lives  in  the  building,  but  I  don't 
see  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  is  he  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know.     I  understand  he  is  in  Europe. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else? 

(No  response.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  else  do  you  and  your  wife  visit  back  and  forth 
with  at  the  hotel  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Lincoln  Plant. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Anyone  else? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Those  are  the  only  people  that  you  have  associated 
with  since  you  have  gotten  out  on  parole  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  sure  of  that? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Al  Capone  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Very  casually. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  83 

Mr.  Robinson.  Describe  it.  Give  the  time  and  place  and  circum- 
stances under  which  you  met  him. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  saw  him  on  Twenty-second  Street,  that  is  all. 
At  the  Midnight  Frolics,  a  cafe.    I  believe  it  was  that  name,  then. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "V\^ien? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  would  be  1931. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  that  occasion  very  well? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No.     It  is  the  first  time  I  ever  saw  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  introduced  him  to  you  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Nobod3^ 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  he  know  you  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  didn't  know  me.     You  asked  me  if  I  knew  Al  Capone. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Yes.     You  didn't  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE,  No;  I  never  had  any  dealings  with  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No ;  I  just  saw  him  at  the  cafe. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  have  any  conversation  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Murray  Humphreys  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  you  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  believe  he  at  one  time  had  a  place  at  a  club  tliat  was 
in  the  same  area. 

Mr.  Robinson.  A  bookie  place? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No ;  it  was  not  a  bookie  place.    It  was  a  speakeasy. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  ever  have  any  bookie  places  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

i\Ir.  Robinson.  How  about  Hymie  Levin,  do  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

jNIr.  Robinson.  Where  is  he  living? 

Mr.  GioE.  He  lives  on  Chestnut  Street. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Not  at  the  Seneca  Hotel  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir ;  they  are  directly  across. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  would  say  I  know  Hymie  14  years  or  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  seen  him  since  you  got  out  on  parole  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Sam  Hunt  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Approximately  the  same  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  business  connection  with  him? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Tony  Accardo  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  We  went  to  school  together. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  been  in  business  with  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  was  he  in  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  One  time  he  was  connected  with  the  Okay  Motor  Service, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  the  only  business  that  you  know  that  he 
was  in  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No. 


84  ORGANIZED    CRIMEl  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Tell  some  of  the  others  that  he  was  in. 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  had  an  interest  with  the  Russell  brothers  in  a  different 
location. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Ralph  Pearce,  too? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  don't  know  about  Rali)h.  Ralph,  I  knew,  had  an 
interest  in  the  office  with  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  say  he  had  an  interest  with  the  Russell 
brothers,  you  mean  in  their  bookmakin^  business;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes.  They  had  a  book  down  the  street — I  forget,  I 
think  it  is  on  Lake  and  Wabash. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  he  was  in  the  bookmaking  business  with  the 
Russell  brothers  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  that  at  a  different  time  from  when  you  were  in 
the  bookmaking  business  with  the  Russell  brothers  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  was  a  different  type.  He  was  in  the  room  when  I 
had  a  piece  of  the  office.  You  see,  we  had  an  office  on  State  Street. 
Accardo  was  a  partner  of  the  Russels  in  this  room  on  Lake  and 
Wabash. 

Mr.  Halley,  What  happened  in  the  office  ?  What  kind  of  bookmak- 
ing operations  did  you  have  there  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  We  would  take  some  lay-offs. 

Mr.  Halley.  From  whom  w^ould  you  take  the  lay-offs? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Various  books  throughout  the  city. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  were  some  of  the  people  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  we  used  to  go  usually  by  addresses,  Joe  Haas  and 
Frank  Ryan.  There  were  quite  a  few  books  at  that  time  and  they 
would  call  in  and  give  you  a  10-,  20-,  or  50-dollar  bet. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  sort  of  a  business  did  they  do  in  the  room  down 
where  Accardo  was  in  the  business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  It  was  open  to  the  bettors  on  the  floor. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  in  the  same  building  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  was  that  located  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  On  Lake  and  Wabash. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

The  Chairman.  What  other  business  did  the  Russell  brothers  have? 

Mr.  Gioe.  They  were  in  the  tavern  business,  Senator.  I  believe 
Dave  had  a  place  on  Madison  Street,  and  Harry,  I  think,  had  an  in- 
terest in  what  they  call  the  Russell  Silver  Bar  on  Van  Buren  Street. 
I  understand  he  sold  out  his  interest  a  few  years  after  the  war. 

The  Chairman.  What  else  did  they  have  an  interest  in  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Was  Harry  Russell  a  well-known  gambler  in 
Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  he  was.    He  was  a  bookmaker. 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  arrested  a  number  of  times  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  believe  so. 

The  Chairman.  Wliat  other  name  did  he  go  by  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know.  I  know  his  family  name,  but  I  can't  think 
of  it  offhand.     I  guess  he  changed  his  name  to  Russell. 

The  Chairman.  His  name  is  really  not  Russell  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes ;  I  know  he  has  a  Jewish  name,  but  I  can't  remember 
what  it  was. 


J 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    CX)MMERCE  85 

Mr.  Halley.  While  we  are  on  the  subject,  where  did  you  get  your 
wire  service? 

Mr.  GiOE.  At  the  time  ? 

]Mr.  Halley,  Yes. 

Mr.  GioE.  I  don't  know.  Russell  handled  that.  I  think  it  was  the 
one  that  Annenberg  had.  That  was  the  only  wire  service,  I  believe,  at 
the  time. 

]\Ir,  Halley.  The  Continental  Service? 

Mr.  GioE.  If  it  was  Annenberg,  I  don't  know  what  the  name  of  his 
company  was. 

Mr.  Halley.  Nation-wide. 

]Mr.  GiOE.  The  one  Annenberg  had. 

The  CiiAiRMAx.  Were  Russell  and  Annenberg  good  friends? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Supposedly. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  Levin  ?  Was  he  a  fellow  up  in  the  wire 
service  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Hymie  Levin. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  I  spoke  of  him,  but  I  didn't  know  anything  about  his 
wire  service. 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  not  in  the  same  wire  service  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No ;  not  at  the  time.     If  he  followed,  he  followed  later  on. 

The  Chairman.  Were  he  and  Russell  good  friends? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  how  close  they  were.  They  knew  each 
other. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  know  they  knew  each  other? 

Mr.  GioE.  Just  by  conversation,  because  he  would  call  up  and  call 
in  a  bet  ever}^  now  and  then.     Hvmie  Levin. 

The  Chairman.  That  was  back  in  1940  ? 

IVIr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  1940,  thereabouts,  maybe  all  the  way  back 
to  '37,  '38,  '39. 

The  Chairman.  What  happened  to  Russell  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Eddie  O'Hare? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Eddie  O'Hare ;  no  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Hugo  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Who? 

Mr.  Halley.  Hugo  Bennett. 

]\Ir.  GiOE,  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  j^ou  know  Bill  Johnston,  Sportsmen's  Park? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  know  who  he  is,  but  I  don't  have  any 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  him  ? 

IMr.  GiOE.  I  met  him  very  casually. 

Air.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  him  with  Russell  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Or  with  Ralph  Pearce? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 
_  Mr.  Robinson.  I  didn't  get  the  answer  clear  to  Mr.  Halley's  ques- 
tion.    Were  you  in  business  with  the  Russells  and  Pearce  at  the  same 
time  that  Accardo  was  in  business  with  them  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No.  The  place  was  called  Russell,  Russell,  Pearce  and 
Gioe.  We  filed  a  tax  i-eturn  under  that  name.  We  took  lay-off  from 
different  books.  At  that  time  Accardo  was  with  Russell  in  a  book 
down  tlie  street. 

Mr.  Robinson.  At  the  same  time. 


86  ORGANIZED    CRi:\IEi   IX    IXTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes;  but  it  was  two  different  operations. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  just  take  bets  from  places  in  Chicago? 

Mr.  GioE.  Oh,  we  got  some  business  from  out  of  town. 

ISIr.  RoBixsox.  AYhere? 

Mr.  GiOE.  "Well,  Kansas  City,  Omaha,  Indiana.  Michigan. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Will  you  name  some  of  the  people  you  got  bets, 
from  those  areas  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  There  was  one  that  came  that  we  used  to  do  exchange 
business — Eddie  Berrick.  They  were  doing  business  with  that 
office.  I  didn't  know  Mr.  Berrick  at  that  time.  I  knew  we  were 
doing  business  with  that  office.  Russell  being  in  this  business  had 
what  they  called  outlets.  If  you  wanted  to  get  rid  of  some  money, 
you  called  up  the  outs.  That  is  what  they  called  an  "out."  He 
would  call  up  different  places.  If  the  bet  was  too  much,  and  he 
wanted  to  move  something,  he  moved  it  to  these  different  bookmakers. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  That  takes  care  of  Omaha  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  about  Kansas  City? 

Mr.  GiOE.  At  that  time  he  was  doing  business  with  Tonv  Gizzo  and 
Carollo. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  you  say  he  was  doing  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Russell's  office. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Weren't  you  doing  business  with  them,  too? 

Mr.  GioE.  But  I  wasn't  too  familiar  with  the  business  at  that  time- 
Mr.  RoBixsox.  He  was  the  man  doing  it  i 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  had  an  interest  in  the  business  but  he  was 
managing  it. 

]Mr.  GioE.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Who  else  in  Kansas  City? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  anybody  else. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  about  St.  Louis? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  who  he  did  business  in  St.  Louis  ? 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  What  was  the  other  city  you  named  I 

jSIr.  GiOE.  Xew  York. 

Mv.  RoBixsox.  Who  in  New  York  ? 

]Mr.  GiOE.  I  can't  think  of  the  fellow's  name.  I  don't  know  if  he- 
had  any  connection  at  that  time  with  Erickson's  office.  They  used  tO' 
make  layoffs  in  Xew  York  for  the  New  York  tracks. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  j^ou  do  any  business  with  Erickson  to  your 
knowledge  ? 

Mv.  GiOE.  No ;  I  wouldn't  say  to  it, 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  j'ou  get  any  business  from  Erickson  ? 

Mv.  GiOE.  There  was  an  office  over  there  that  I  thought  Erickson 
might  have  been  interested  in  at  the  time.  Some  fellow  Green  was 
running  the  operation.  I  think  Mr.  Erickson  might  have  been  con-^ 
nected  with  that  outfit  at  that  time. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  How  about  Costello  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  never  heard  of  him  being  connected  with  him. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Do  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Well,  what  are  the  other  cities  now  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well.  Cincinnati,  he  was  doing  business  with  somebody,, 
but  I  wouldn't  remember  the  name.  I  remember  we  called  different 
places  throughout  the  country. 


ORGANIZED   CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  87 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  How  about  Florida  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  We  done  business  with  Hialeah  race  track  ri<>ht  with  the 
track. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Any  of  the  hotels  down  there? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. " 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  the  only  one  you  can  remember  in  Florida 
just  the  track  ?  '  ' 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  is  right.  We  used  to  take  the  bet  right  into  the 
track. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  the  S.  and  G.  in  Florida,  did  you  do 
business  with  them? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  You  did  not  know  anything  about  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  was  the  one  up  in  the  New  England  area? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  never 

Mr.  Robinson.  Nobody  in  Boston  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir.     I  didn't  know  any. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  can  you  think  of  any  other  areas  ?  How  about 
Caiiiornia  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No;  I  never  knew  of  anybody  that  did  business  there 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Indiana,  out  around  Gary? 

Mr,  GioE.  No.  ■ 

lilr^ Robinson.  Did  you  have  any  business  from  a  place  called  the 
Big  House  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  William  Sheetz  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Not  at  that  time,  I  don't  believe. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Any  other  time  ? 

Mr  GioE.  I  am  only  going  up  to  that  time  because  it  was  the 
only  time  I  was  m  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Hoav  about  William  Gardner? 

Mr.  GioE.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  either  one  of  them? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr'  Gme'^No  "  ^"^  "^ ""''  '^""'''^  ^'^""^  """-^  ""^^'^'^  P^""®"^''  "'  Indiana? 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Louisville  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  nobody  in  California? 

Mr.  GioE.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Jack  Drawna? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir.  * 

Mr.  Robinson.  John  Roselli  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Johnny  done  time  with  me. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  did  business  with  him  from  1937  to  1940?- 

Mr.  GiOE.  In  horses? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Never? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mi\  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Roy  Jones  ? 


88  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

;Mr.  GioE.  I  have  heard  of  him  but  I  don't  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Ragen? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Or  Pat  Burns  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  McBride? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  None  of  them  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  did  you  know  Nitti  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  about  10  years. 

Mr.   Robinson.  What  was  your   association  with  him? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Nothing,  just  that  I  met  him  around  the  old  man's  cigar 
store  at  that  time  over  on  Clark  Street,  Alderman  Kenny's  place. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  get  tied  up  with  him  in  this  movie 
business  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  was  never  tied  up  in  the  movie  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  not  tied  up  with  Nitti  in  any  way? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  saw  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  never  saw  or  had  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  Campagna  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  approximately  the  same  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  have  done  business  with  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Had  you  been  in  business  with  him  ? 

ISIr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  never  in  the  gambling  business  with  him? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  was  he  m  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Campagna? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  what  business  he  was  in  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  was  out  of  Cicero.  That  is  some  place  I  never  went  to. 
I  knew  he  had  a  couple  of  saloons  at  the  time. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  he  had  a  couple  of  saloons? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  had  an  interest  in  some  of  those  places  in  Cicero  at 
the  time. 

JSIr.  Robinson.  Now,  1937  to  1940,  you  were  in  partnership  with 
Pearce  and  the  two  Russells. 

INIr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  put  into  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Not  very  much  money.  I  went  out  and  solicited  the 
accounts  and  got  some  business  for  them.  That  was  all  I  was  inter- 
ested in  at  the  time. 

ISIr.  Robinson.  Who  did  you  solicit  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Various  bettors. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  who  were  some  of  them,  some  of  the  larger 
ones  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  at  that  time  there  were  quite  a  few  of  the  ]5laces 
around  town,  and  I  would  go  over  there  and  talk  to  soniebody  if  I  hap- 
pened to  know  somebody  and  asked  about  the  lay-otl  business. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  89 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  Did  you  solicit  Eicca  ? 

JMr.  GiOE.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Can't  you  think  of  any  of  the  names  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  there  was  Dobkin. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Peter  Tremont? 

Mr.  (tioe.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  solicit  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Dobkin  is  known  as  a  rather  large  commissioner. 

Mr.  (tioe.  At  that  time  he  wasn't  doing  too  much  business.     Joe 
Grabner.    Oscar  Gutter. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Harry  Siganski  ?  Did  you  ever  do  any 
business  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Harry  Siganski  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Doc  Siganski. 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.    I  cannot  place  the  name  at  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  say  you  put  into  this  business,  this 
partnership  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  wouldn't  say  it  was  very  much. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  wouldn't  even  remember  the  figure  offliand.  It  could 
not  have  been  more  than  $1,000  or  $2,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  Russell  put  in  ? 

INIr.  Gioe.  I  really  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  Pearce  put  in  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know  how  much  he  put  in. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  in  partnership  ? 

]\Ir.  Gioe.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  have  an  agreement. 

Mr.  Gioe.  The  Russell  brothers  put  up  the  bankroll. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  got  in  for  $1,000  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  A  couple  of  thousand. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  that  come  about?  How  could  you  get  in 
with  just  $1,000? 

Mr.  Gioe.  We  were  only  booking  on  a  small  scale. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  it  grow  into  a  larger  scale  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  We  did  some  volume. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  us  take  up  the  volume.  How  much  volume  of 
business  would  you  do  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Maybe  some  days  we  would  do  3,000,  some  days  2,500, 
some  days  we  might  do  3,500. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  would  you  do  every  year? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Well,  I  couldn't  give  you  that.  If  I  could  get  the  sheets 
at  the  time 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  that  normal,  two  or  three  thousand  dollars  a 
day? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes.  Sometimes  we  would  have  five  or  six  thousand  dol- 
lars on  a  Saturday,  stake  races,  and  people  would  bet  heavier  on  stake 
races. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  get  out  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  25  percent. 

Mr.  Robinson.  25  percent  ? 

^Ir.  Gioe.  Of  the  winnings. 

68958 — 51— pt.  5 — —7 


90  ORGANIZED    CRIMB   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  was  the  rest  of  it  split? 

Mr.  GiOE.  The  same  way.  ■         .  ^  i 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  got  25  percent  of  the  winnings  lor  a  thousand 
dollar  investment  ?  r^  ■   ■     ^^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  For  the  small  investment,  I  had  25  percent.  Originally 
I  started  out  I  got  some  of  the  business,  I  got  a  piece  of  that  and  then 
they  declared  me  on  the  whole  thing  rather  than  keep  separate  books. 
It  was  like  50-50  book  where  you  get  50  percent  of  the  winnings  back. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Well,  how  much  would  you  get  out  of  that  annually 
for  your  25  percent  ?    How  much  would  that  amount  to  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  It  was  never  too  much.  I  got  seven  or  eight  thousand 
dollars,  I  believe.    Six,  seven,  or  eight  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Robinson.  A  year? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all  you  got  out  of  it  ^  ,      ,      , 

Mr.  GioE.  That  is  all  I  got  out  of  it.    That  is  all  the  books  show. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  do  some  betting  individually  yourself? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Very  little. 

Mr.  Robinson.  So  your  total  income  for  those  years  would  run 
about  six,  seven,  or  eight  thousand  dollars  a  year  from  1937  to  1940? 

Mr.  GiOE.  It  might  have  been  a  little  more  than  that. 

Mr  Robinson.  How  much  did  Harry  Russell  get  out  of  it? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Harry  Russell  would  bet  beside  booking.     I  wouldn  t 

Mr!  Robinson.  You  don't  know  how  much  he  got  out  of  it? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  wouldn't  know  what  he  won  betting. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Out  of  the  business. 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  is  what  I  mentioned.     I  thought  it  ran  around 

$7,000.  . 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  each  one  of  you  got  out  ^ 

Mr.  GioE.  I  believe  so,  yes.  But  he  was  a  bettor.  By  that  I  mean, 
if  he  thought  the  horse  was  any  good,  he  would  bet  $500  or  $200  or 

$300 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  been  identified  with  the  Capone  syndicate, 

isn't  that  right?  ^    .     -j     .-^ 

Mr.  GioE.  The  newspapers  identified  or  whoever  wants  to  identity 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  never  have  been  associated  with  them 
or  done  business  with  them'  or  been  friendly  with  them  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  know  a  lot  of  them,  but  what  you  call  the  Capone 
syndicate 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  know  a  lot  of  them. 

Mr.  GioE.  I  mean  the  people  you  mention.  You  call  them  a  syndi- 
cate. '  You  say  I  was  associated  with  the  syndicate. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  said  you  knew  a  lot  of  them.    Wlio  are  they  i 

Mr.  GioE.  These  names  tliat  you  mentioned,  you  asked  about  Mur- 
rav  Humphreys.    I  know  these  people. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  associate  them  with  the  Capone  syndicate  i 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  associate  anybody  with  any  syndicate. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  Ralph  Capone,  do  you  know  him? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir;  very  casually. 

The  Chairman.  How  casually? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  just  know  him  to  see  him.  I  never  had  anything  to  do 
with  him. 


ORGANIZED   CRIMEi  IX   INTERSTATE    COIVIMETICE  91 

Mr.  Hallet.  "Were  you  born  in  Chicago? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 
Mr.  Halley.  How  old  are  you? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Forty-six. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  first  met  Al  Capone?     What  year? 
Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  it  was  in  the  early  thirties. 
Mr.  Halley.  What  were  you  doing  at  the  time  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  I  was  in  the  printing  business  and  I  was  trying  to  sell 
some  tickets  to  the  bookmakers. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  what  printing  business  were  you  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  We  called  it  a  general  ticket. 
Mr.  Halley.  Who  else  was  in  the  business  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  There  was  Creighton,  a  Frank  Kelly,  O'Brien. 
Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  any  other  business  at  that  time? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  that  your  first  business  or  had  you  had  any  other 
business  before  that? 
Mr.  Gioe.  No  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  said  you  went  to  school  with  Tony  Accardo  ? 
Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  we  were  born  in  the  same  neighborhood  and  went 
to  school  together. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  you  go  to  school  together  ? 
Mr.  Gioe.  The  Washington  School. 
Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  continue  to  see  him  after  that? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  what  did  he  do  when  he  got  out  of  school  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  I  don't  know.    He  went  to  work  for  a  wholesale  grocer. 
His  father  had  a  shoe  shop,  and  he  was  Avith  his  father. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  went  to  work  with  Al  Capone  for  a  while. 
Mr.  Gioe.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  was  in  the  liquor  business  with  him. 
Mr.  Gioe.  If  you  know  that,  I  don't. 
Mr.  Halley.  'You  don't  know  that? 
Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  see  him  during  those  days  right  after  you 
got  out  of  school  ?  "^ 

Mr.  Gioe.  No  ;  I  would  see  him  on  and  oif. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  am  trying  to  find  out  how  you  met  all  these  people. 

How  did  you  happen  to  meet  Al  Capone.     You  say  you  were  in  the 

printmg  busmess.     Could  anybody  in  the  printing  business  walk  up 

to  Al  Capone?  ^ 

Mr.  Gioe.  No.     There  was  no  Capone  in  the  printing  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  get  to  meet  him? 

Mi\  Gioe.  I  told  you  in  the  early  thirties  I  saw  him  at  this  cafe 
that  I  made  mention  of. 
Mr.  Halley.  ^Vliat  cafe? 

Mr.  Gioe.  The  Frolics  on  Twenty-second  Street. 
Mr.  Halley.  What  were  you  doing  there  ? 
Mr.  Gioe.  I  was  cafe-ing." 
Mr.  Halley.  Who  introduced  you  to  Capone  ? 
Mr  Gioe.  I  M'as  not  introduced  to  him.    I  just  saw  him.    In  them 
days  he  was  around  every  night.    When  he  asked  me  about  Capone, 
1  said  yes,  I  knew  him. 


92  ORGANIZED    CRIMEl  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  around  there  every  night? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  n,  .    i  •     o 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  yon  first  meet  liim  to  talk  to  hun^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  ever  remember  ever  having  talked  to  hnn. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  met  him  at  all  ? 

Mr  GiOE.  No;  I  just  saw  him  around  the  place. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  talk  to  Al  Capone  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  .  vi    i  •     9 

Mr.  Halley.  Never  had  a  conversation  of  any  kind  witli  liim « 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir.  .       „  ,,^      -,  ■     '  v 

Mr.  Halley.  Never  said,  "Good  morning, '  "Good  evening,     or 

"Hello,  Mr.  Capone"? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir.  i    *  1  r.  9 

Mr  Halley.  No  talk  at  all  between  you  and  Al  Capone? 
Mr.  Gioe.  No,  no  conversation.    All  I  ever  saw  him  was  m  that  ca±e. 
Mr  Halley.  When  did  you  first  meet  Paul  Ricca  ?       ^   ,  .   ,   .^ 
Mr".  Gioe.  Ricca  had  a  restaurant  at  the  Blue  Grotto,  I  think  it  was 
called,  and  1  would  say  that  was  maybe  1934  or  1035. 
Mr.  Halley.  1934  or  1935? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  would  say  earlier  than  that,  I  believe. 
Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  a  speakeasy?  . 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  believe  it  was  before  prohibition. 
Mr.  Halley.  He  sold  liquor? 

Mr  Gioe.  It  was  a  restaurant,  and  he  told  liquor  and  wines. 
Mr'  H\LLEY.  Where  was  the  Blue  Grotto  located? 
Mr*.  Gioe.  At  Wabash  and  Congress  or  Van  Buren. 
Mr  Halley.  How  did  you  first  meet  Ricca  ?  , 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  just  met  him  at  the  restaurant  down  there.  -1 

Mr   Halley.  Who  introduced  you? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Well,  you  meet  people  and  not  necessarily  througli  in- 
troductions. ^       T  1  /-.I  •  1     ^4. 
Mr  Halley.  You  seem  to  have  wandered  around  Chicago  and  got 
to^know  a  lot  of  people  and  you  don't  seem  to  make  it  clear  how  you 
met  anybody.    Did  you  meet  Ralph  Capone  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  just  casually.  ^^  ^    ^  ^   .  ^  . 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  talk  to  Ralph  Capone  ( 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  I  doirt  believe  so. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  talked  to  him  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  I  never  had  anything  to  do  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  said  hello?  n    n     1    ^t 

Mr.  Gioe.  You  are  trying  to  pin  me  down  to  say  hello,  but  1  never 

had  anything  to  do .  1     ^^ 

Mr.  HallSy.  I  am  not  trying  to  pm  you  down.     Did  you  know 

Ralph  Capone  or  didn't  you  ? 

Mr  Gioe.  I  would  say  I  didn't  know  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  him  well  enough  to  greet  him  and  to 
have  him  Gfreet  you?  ,      ,,  ,. 

Mr  Gioe  Well,  if  I  have  seen  Ralph  Capone  maybe  three  times 
in  my  whole  life,  or  what  was  supposed  to  be  Ralph  Capone,  it  is  the 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  ever  introduced  to  him  ? 
Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Never  ?  ,  „  ,,     ^. 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir,  not  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 


ORGANIZED   CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  93 

.INIr.  Halley.  How  did  you  first  meet  Plarry  Russell  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Ralph  Pearce  told  me  about  this  proposition. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  first  meet  Ralph  Pearce  ? 

]Mr.  GioE.  I  met  him  around  Twenty-second  Street  when  he  was 
around  with  Sam  and  the  rest  of  the  lads.  I  think  it  was  during 
prohibition. 

jNIr.  Halley.  Sam  ? 

JSIr.  Gioe.  Sam  Hunt. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  That  is  "Golf  Bag*"  Hunt,  isn't  it  ? 

]\Ir.  GiOE.  Sam  Hunt. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  call  him  '"Golf  Bag"  Hunt,  don't  they  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know  who  does  outside  of  the  newspapers. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  the  newspapers  call  him  that  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  They  refer  to  him  as  "Golf  Bag." 

]\Ir.  Halley.  What  do  you  mean  you  were  all  around  Twenty-sec- 
ond Street  ?  That  is  very  vague.  What  happened  on  Twenty-sec- 
ond Street? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Xothing.  I  told  you  I  was  in  this  printing  business.  I 
was  trying  to  solicit  some  of  these  fellows  to  give  us  some  of  the 
business  for  the  tickets.  So  I  tried  to  contact  whoever  I  knew  would 
be  influential  or  knew  this  fellow  or  that  fellow  and  try  to  get  some 
of  the  business. 

^Ir.  Halley.  Was  Pearce  one  of  the  people  you  contacted  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  believe  so. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  3'ou  get  to  meet  Pearce?  Who  introduced 
3"ou  to  him? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  wouldn't  remember. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  your  testimony  that  you  want  this  committee 
to  believe  that  you  Avere  in  the  printing  business  and  you  just  wandered 
around  Chicago  and  tried  to  meet  people  and  sell  them  tickets  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  am  not  trying  to  avoid  answering  the  question.  I  just 
can't  think  in  my  mind  and  say  how  did  I  meet  this  fellow^  and  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did*  j^ou  ever  belong  to  the  Union  Siciliano  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Never? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  It  is  a  fraternal  organization  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  is  it  located  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know.  At  one  time  it  was  located  at  the  Masonic 
Temple. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  Washington  Street? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir.    It  was  an  insurance  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  had  other  purposes,  too,  didn't  it? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Not  that  I  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  belong  to  it  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  belong  to  the  Italo- American  League? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Mafia? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  have  you  heard  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  What  I  read  in  the  papers. 


94  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    CO^IMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  there  is  such  an  organi- 
zation as  the  Mafia  from  your  own  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  From  my  own  knowledge,  I  know  ot  no  such  organiza- 

Mr.  Hallet.  Do  you  belong  to  any  such  organization? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir.  ... 

Mr  Halley.  Now,  I  wish  you  would  state  again  the  circumstances 
under  which  you  were  able  to  get  a  25  percent  interest  m  Harry  Rus- 
sell's business  for  $2,000,  or  one  or  two  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  remember  the  exact  figure.  I  said  it  was  a  couple 
of  thousand  dollars  at  the  time. 

Mr  Halley.  That  makes  absolutely  no  sense  at  all.  , 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  guess  thev  were  just  starting  the  business.  This 
Ealph  Pearce  says,  "Let  us  take  a  piece  of  this,  what  you  call  it,  be- 
cause at  that  time  we  were  soliciting  for  this  ticket  business  for  these 
books.  I  said,  "All  right,  I  will  take  a  piece  with  you."  We  put  up  a 
little  money  and  got  some  business  for  the  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  went  into  the  bookmakmg  business  did  you 
go  out  of  the  ticket  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  We  sold  out  to  Bentley-Murray. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  year  did  you  sell  out  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  1934:  or  1935.    I  am  vague  on  that.  n  ,  ^o>r  o 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  you  do  for  a  living  between  19o4  and  1937  i 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  didn't  do  much  of  anything. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  ever  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  ever  convicted  of  a  crime  5 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes.  . 

Mr.  Halley.  You  were  convicted,  of  course,  on  the  movie  extortion 

case. 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  now  admit  your  guilt  in  that  case  or  do  you 
still  contend  you  were  innocent? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  still  contend  I  was  innocent. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  ever  convicted  of  any  other  crime? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  times  were  you  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Well,  v;hat  you  call  arrest,  I  was  arrested  maybe  as  far 
as  I  can  remember  five  or  six  times. 

Mr.  Halley.  Could  it  be  more  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  what  were  you  arrested  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  AVell,  more  or  less  for  general  pick-ups.  I  was  never 
tried  for  a  crime. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  were  tried  except  in  the  extortion  case  i 

Mr.  Gioe.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Between  1934  and  1937  you  had  no  business  at  all  i 

Mr.  Gioe.  1934  and  1937.  ,  .       ■     . 

Mr.  Halley.  You  said  in  1937  you  went  into  the  bookmakmg  busi- 
ness with  Russell. 

Mr.  Gioe.  In  1937  I  believe  I  was— in  1934  rather,  or  just  belore 
that— prior  to  that  I  messed  around  with  some  alcohol  during  prohibi- 
tion. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let  us  hear  about  the  messing  around. 


I 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  95 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  sold  some  to  various  customers  who  asked  for  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  you  buy  it  ^ 

Mr,  GioE.  I  bought  it  from  various  places  where  they  had  poolrooms 
and  places  like  that,  where  you  made  contact  with  the  fellows  that 
manufactured  it.  I  bought  it  and  resold  it  to  some  customer  from 
out  of  town. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  any  partners  in  the  alcohol  business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much  money  had  you  accumulated  when  prohibi- 
tion went  out,  that  is,  at  the  time  of  repeal  ?  How  much  money  had 
you  accumulated !? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  wouldn't  know  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  over  $10,000  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  couldn't  say  whether  it  was  $10,000  or  $15,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  as  much  as  $100,000? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  think  you  might  have  had  $10,000? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  could  have  accumulated  $10,000. 

The  Chairman.  Tell  us  your  best  estimate. 

Mr.  Gioe.  My  best  estimate  would  be  that  I  maybe  made  seven  or 
eight  thousand  dollars  a  year  during  prohibition  or  maybe  $1,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  else  messed  around  with  alcohol.  Was  Tony 
Accardo  one? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know.  I  believe  he  was.  But  I  wasn't  doing  any 
business  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  At  that  time  did  you  know  Ricca  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  first  meet  Ricca  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Ricca  I  met,  I  think,  they  were  selling  a  bottle  champagne, 
either  he  or  somebody  was  connected  with  him,  and  I  wanted  to  get 
some  for  the  Christmas  holidays,  there  was  some  market  for  it,  and 
that  is  how  I  think  I  got  to  go  to  the  Blue  Grotto. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  to  buy  champagne  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  It  was  synthetic  champagne. 

Mr.  Halley.  This  was  before  prohibition? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  would  say  it  was  around  that  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  needed  the  champagne  for  your  customers  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  for  Christmas.  Maybe  I  had  a  customer  that 
wanted  four  or  five  cases. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much  champagne  would  you  say  you  bought 
from  Ricca  before  prohibition  was  repealed? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Not  much. 

Mr.  Halley.  AVould  you  ssij  that  the  deals  amounted  to  a  couple 
of  hundred  dollars  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Couple  of  hundred  dollars.  Well,  I  didn't  do  too  much. 
If  I  picked  up  wine,  it  would  be  5  or  10  cases,  maybe  a  couple  of  times. 

]Mr.  H  *  LLEY.  You  say  3'ou  didn't  deal  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  He  had  a  partner  by  the  name  of  Ralph  something  that 
used  to  handle  the  business  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  Buglio? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No;  it  was  not  Buglio.     The  name  does  not  register. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  first  meet  Campagna  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know  Mr.  Campagna  too  well.  It  could  have 
been  around  the  same  time,  around  the  same  years,  say  1937,  1938,  or 
something. 


96  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Hallet.  How  did  you  meet  Campagna  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Very  vague  in  my  mind  how  I  came  across  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  knew  Phil  D'Andrea. 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  is  one  of  the  fellows  convicted  with  us. 

Mr.  Halley.  AVlien  did  you  first  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  Phil  was  interested  in  politics  around  that  first 
ward.  I  wouldn't  say  just  when  I  met  him,  but  he  had  some  trucks 
that  were  working  for  the  city  and  he  Avas  pretty  active  in  first  ward 
politics. 

Mv.  Halley.  Were  you  active  in  first  ward  politics? 

]\Ir.  GiOE.  Somewhat,  not 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  run  for  political  office? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  your  activity  in  the  politics? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Nothing,  nothing  at  all,  whatsoever. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  party  were  you  active  with.  Democrat  or  Repub- 
lican? ,.  . 

Mv.  GiOE.  I  was  an  opportunist.  If  a  Republican  was  m  power, 
I  would  ask  him  for  favors,  and  if  the  Democrats  were  in  power,  I 
would  see  the  Democrats. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  make  any  contributions? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir ;  not  to  amount  to  anything. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  contribute  to  one  party  or  to  the  other  or  to 
both? 

Mr.  GioE.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  No  contributions  at  all  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No.    It  could  have  been  a  very  small  thing,  maybe  $25  or 

Mr.  Halley.  During  prohibition,  then,  you  were  handling  a  little 
liquor. 

Mv.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  went  into  the  printing  business. 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  do  that  when  prohibition  was  repealed  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No.  We  started  that.  I  thought  I  saw  where  we  might 
get  lucky  and  get  into  this  type  of  business  and  make  some  money, 
but  it  didn't  pan  out  that  way. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  lose  money  on  it  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No ;  we  didn't  make  or  lose  too  much  money. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  vou  sold  out  in  1934.  what  was  your  share? 

Mr.  Gioe.  There  were  five  partners  in  the  business,  but  we  owed  so 
much  money  that  the  other  company  took  it  over  and  paid  off  the 
debts  for  us,'  and  took  the  company. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  you  live  on  between  1934  and  1937  when  you 
went  into  the  betting  business  with  Harry  Russell  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  what  did  I  live  on?  I  did  the  best  I  could.  I 
was  never  a  large  liver, 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  move  into  the  Seneca  Hotel  i 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  would  say  1942.  . 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  your  wife  who  owned  the  stock  m  that,  or  you  i 

Mr.  Gioe.  My  wife. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  gave  her  the  money  to  buy  the  stock  i 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  did.     I  gave  Mr.  Greenberg  the  money. 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  97 

Mr.  Hallet.  How  much  money  did  you  pay  for  the  stock  in  the 
feeneca  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  I  think  it  was  around  $12,000. 
Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  buy  the  stock  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  1939  or  1910.  ^  I  believe  that  was  the  year. 

x^^^^;.-^-^^^^^'-  ^^^l^ere  did  you  live  before  you  moved  into  the  Seneca 
Hotel  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  4300  Marine  Drive. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  did  you  live  there? 

Mr.  GioE.  About  2  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  you  live  before  that  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Over  in  a  place  on  the  west  side  at  Kedsey  Boulevard 
and  I  can't  think  of  the  street  that  runs  the  other  way.  ' 

Mr.  Halley.  You  had  no  means  of  earning  a  living  as  far  as  I  can 
see  between  1934'and  1937,  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  was  trying  to  place  what  I  was  doing  in  1934. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  said  you  closed  out  the  printing  business. 

Mr.  Gioe.  In  1934  I  lived  in  Iowa,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  were  you  doing  in  Iowa  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  At  that  time  we  used  to  bring  alcohol  from  Wisconsin  to 
Iowa. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  did  that? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Myself. 

Mr.  Halley.^ Who  else? 

Mr.  Gioe.  It  was  just  the  fellows  that  used  to  buy  it.  There  was  a 
leJlow  by  the  name  of  Johnny  who  used  to  get  the  alcohol  and  send 
it  down  by  one  of  his  drivers. 

Mr  Halley.  Who  gave  you  your  protection  during  the  prohibition 
days  i     Did  you  get  that  from  the  Capone  syndicate  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No  protection  from  any  Capone  syndicate. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  could  not  just  go  out  and  peddle  liquor  in  Chicago 
without  making  peace  with  somebody. 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  never  had  anv  trouble. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  Vogel  live  at  4300  ^larine  Drive,  too? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  know  whether  he  lived  there  before  or  after  I  did 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  live  there  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  any  other  friends  in  that  building? 

Mr.  Gioe.  At  the  time  when  I  lived  there  I  don't  believe  there  was 
anybody  living  m  there.  There  was  Paul  Mann  living  in  the  build- 
ing. That  is  the  fellow  who  employed  me.  That  is  all  I  can 
remember. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  isn't  just  the  man  that  is  a  customer.  He  is  a 
man  3^ou  have  known  for  some  time. 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  first  meet  Paul  Mann  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  knew  him  casually.  I  met  him  in  the  restaurant,  iust 
like  a  customer  that  you  get  friendly  with. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  what  restaurant? 

Mr.  Gioe.  The  Beachcomber. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  buy  the  stock  in  the  Beachcomber? 

Mr.  Gioe.  We  started  that  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  vou  invest  in  the  Beachcomber^ 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  believe  it  was  1939  or  1940. 


98  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much  money  did  you  invest  in  that? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  will  have  to  get  the  records.    I  could  not  tell  you  off- 
hand and  be  down  to  a  figure. 

The  Chairman.  Tell  us  approximately. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  what  the  thing  cost.  I  promoted  the  thing. 
It  hardly  cost  me  anything,  because  I  had  the  idea  and  I  saw  this 
Beachcomber  and  saw  the  operation  there,  and  saw  the  location  and 
made  mention  of  it  to  Jacobson  and  Fitsell,  if  they  like  the  location 
what  they  could  do  with  it.  They  looked  into  it  and  thought  it  would 
be  a  good  idea  if  we  could  get  Beachcomber  interested  m  it.  He  came 
down  and  I  took  a  little  interest  in  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  percentage? 

Mr.  GioE.  Seventeen  percent. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  not  such  a  little  interest,  17  percent. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  it  was  a  restaurant  that  didn't  cost  too  much  to 

put  up.  „  ^  ^  ^  „ 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  you  pay  for  your  1  i  percent  i 
Mr    GiOE.  I  don't  know  if  it  was  $5,000,  $7,000  or  how  much  I 

put  in  there.    I  would  have  to  get  the  records.    You  are  taking  me  back 

quite  a  while.  ,,^       .„       ,      i  m     ^.i, 

Mr.  Halley.  Let  us  go  back  to  1934.    We  will  go  back  even  further. 

You  sold  out  the  printing  business. 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir.  ,       .       ,.  .   .     t  f 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  were  bootlegging  liquor  into  Iowa  ±rom 

Wisconsin. 

Mr.  GioE.  At  the  same  time,  I  will  say. 
Mr.  Halley.  How  long  did  you  do  that? 

Mr.  GioE.  You  mean  how  long  did  I 

Mr.  Halley.  Take  liquor  into  Iowa. 

Mr.  GioE.  Oh,  since  maybe  1928. 

Mr.  Halley.  Since  1928? 

Mr.  GioE.  1928  or  1929.  .      .i    . -u     •        9 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  that  end,  when  did  you  stop  that  business  i 

Mr  GioE.  When  prohibition  went  out  of  effect.  _   _ 

Mr.'  Halley.  When  you  took  liquor  into  Iowa,  were  you  driving  a 

truck  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No;  automobile. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  took  automobile  loads  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes.  -,      ,.         q 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  you  buy  that  liquor  ? 

Mr  GiOE.  There  was  a  place  on  Grand  and  Green,  a  few  people 
around  there  that  had  it.  In  them  days  you  could  get  as  much  as 
you  want  during  prohibition. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  know  Greenberg  m  those  days  i 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

:Mr.  Halley.  When  did  vou  first  meet  Greenberg^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  just  don't  remember  when  I  first  met  Greenberg. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  Imow  the  Fischettis  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Rocco? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  first  meet  him? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  did  business  with  him  about,  I  would  say,  1937  or  1938. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  kind  of  business  ? 


ORGANIZED   CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  99 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  liad  a  place  on  Wabash  Avenue. 
Mr.  Halle Y.  What  kind  of  a  place  did  he  have? 
Mr.  GiOE.  A  horse  book. 

Mr.  Hallet.  What  kind  of  business  did  you  do  with  him? 
Mr.  Gioe.  Over  the  telephone. 
Mr.  Hallet.  Lay-off  business  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  lay  off  with  the  Russells? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Charles  Fischetti  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.   Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  do  you  know  him? 
Mr.  Gioe.  Api^roximately  the  same  time. 
Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  do  business  with  him  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No :  on  the  same  basis. 
Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Anthony  Capezio  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  comes  from  my  neighborhood  on  the  west  side.     I 
never  done  any  business  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  do  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  known  him  quite  a  while  just  to  know  him.  He 
came  from  my  neighborhood. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  go  to  school  with  him  ? 
JMr.  GiOE.  No,  sir, 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Rocco  DeGrazio  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Nicolo  Impostato  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  I  didn't  get  the  name. 
Mr.  Halley.  Impostato. 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 
Mr.  Halley,  You  don't  know  him  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Tony  Antonelli  ? 
Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  Tony  Bello  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let  us  go  back  now  to  this  period  between  1934  and 
193^.  I  am  very  much  interested  in  finding  out  what  you  were  doino- 
in  that  time.  ^ 

Mr.  GioE.  W^ell 

Mr  Halley.  How  long  was  it  still  profitable  to  run  liquor  into 
iowa «  • 

Mr.  GiOE.  Around  the  end,  when  prohibition  was  repealed,  there 
was  a  little  market  there  for  a  while.  I  don't  know  if  that  ended  in 
about  1935. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  what  did  vou  do  after  1935  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  didn't  do  much  of  anything  that  I  can  remember  at  this 
time. 

Mr.  Halley    So  for  2  or  3  years  you  had  no  business  at  all  ? 

Mr  GioE.  f^o-  I  don't  know  whether  I  went  in  with  the  Russells 
the  latter  part  of  1936  or  1937.     It  was  around  that  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  were  you  out  of  work? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well  I  was  never  out  of  work.  I  was  always  trying  to 
do  something,  looking  for  something.  ^       ^     » 


100  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  What  were  you  trying  to  do?     What  would  you  say 
was  your  business  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  went  in  with  a  fellow  into  the  wrestling  promotion 
business. 

Mr.  Halley.  With  whom  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  A  fellow  by  the  name  of  Pinkey  George. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  messed  around  with  it  for  about  a  year. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  make  any  money  with  it? 

Mr.  GioE.  No ;  not  too  much  money. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  end  were  you  in?     Did  you  manage  wrestlers i 

Mr.  Gioe.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  put  on  shows  ? 

Mr  Gioe.  He  didn't  have  too  much  money  and  I  had  enough  to 
cover  to  put  on  a  show.     It  might  cost  us  two  or  three  hundred  dollars. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  you  do  that  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Through  the  small  towns  in  Iowa. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  not  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

^Ir  Halley.  Yon  testified  some  time  ago  that  the  reason  you  were 
able  to  get  such  a  deal  with  Russell  was  that  you  were  circulating 
around  Chicago  at  that  time  selling  printing  so  you  knew  everybody. 
But  it  turns  out  now  that  you  went  in  with  Russell  about  3  years  after 
you  left  the  printing  business,  and  in  those  3  years  you  were  not  doing 
much  of  anything  except  bootlegging  in  Iowa,  and  putting  on  wrestling 
shows.    How  did  you  get  the  contacts  that  made  you  worth  25  percent 

to  Russell?  ^         ,  ^  ^    '      ^    £  ^^    •    i. 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  didn't  get  any  contact.  I  told  you  I  ]ust  fell  into 
something.  . 

Mr,  Halley.  I  think  you  muscled  into  something,  and  I  am  trying 

to  find  out  how. 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  didn't  muscle  in.     I  am  not  a  muscle  man. 

Mr.  Halley.  We  will  form  that  conclusion.  Apparently  your 
earlier  statement  was  wrong,  wasn't  it?  You  said  you  were  circulat- 
ing around  Chicago  selling  printing. 

Mr.  Gioe.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  that  was  years  before.  You  weren  t  selling  print- 
ing at  the  time  vou  were  trving  to  get  the  bookmaking  business.  _ 

]SIr.  Gioe.  I  got  to  know  people  that  were  in  that  business  and  I  tried 
to  sell  them  tickets. 

INIr.  Halley.  You  didn't  get  to  know  bookmakers  when  you  were 
selling  tickets. 

Mr.  Gioe.  That  was  the  ticket  I  was  printing. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  kind  of  ticket  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  The  safety  ticket. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  kind?  . 

Mr.  Gioe.  It  was  new  at  the  time.  It  was  an  innovation.  It  was 
foolproof,  that  you  could  not  be  past-posted.  There  was  a  carbon 
copy  on  the  back  of  it.  These  people  had  this  ticket  and  came  to  this 
little  printing  plant  that  we  had,  printing  the  old-type  ticket.  So  we 
took  this  ticket  and  put  it  on  the  market  at  the  time.  It  is  the  only 
ticket  being  used  today.  It  took  on.  But  we  didn't  have  enough  money 
at  the  time  and  it  got 'bigger  and  bigger  and  then  there  was  a  close-up 
of  the  books  so  we  folded  up. 


OEGA]S^ZED   CRIME  IN   INTERSTATE   COMMERCE  101 

Mr.  Hallet.  You  must  have  known  something  about  the  book- 
making  business  at  that  time,  when  you  went  into  the  printing  business. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Not  too  much. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Well,  a  little  bit. 

Mr.  GiOE.  This  fellow  O'Brien,  the  one  that  had  the  idea  of  the 
tickets,  IS  the  one  that  brought  it  over  to  this  little  printing  office. 

Mr.  KoBiKSOK.  What  is  his  other  name? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  is  from  the  south  side.  I  can't  think  of  it.  You  see, 
this  was  back  in  1932  or  1933  or  1934.  I  coulchi't  think  of  his  first 
name  olf'hand. 

Mr.  Halley.  Didn't  your  company  print  liquor  labels  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  whisky  bottles  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  didn't  you  print  tax  stamps  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Isn't  that  really  why  you  went  into  that  printing 
business  {  ^  ^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  want  to  stand  on  that  answer? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  the  company  never  have  anything  to  do  with 
printing  whisky  labels  or  liquor  labels  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

,,,^,{[;.^^^^Y-  ^^'fi'®  you  ever  associated  with  any  company  that  had 
anything  to  do  with  printing  whisky  labels  ?  -^         ^      ■> 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  ever  associated  with  any  company  that  had 
boYtles?^  printing  tax  stamps  for  whisky  bottles  or  liquor 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  will  stand  on  that  answer  under  oath? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  your  statement  is  that  the  only  thino-  your  com- 
pany printed  was  these  tickets  ?  ^         *=  ^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  The  tickets. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  so  in  that  way  you  got  to  know  them? 

Mr  W.?'  i!^'?  *^'^^  v^^-  ^  ^^^  familiar  with  a  lot  of  the  books, 
them  ti7ketsr'  ^''''  ^'^  ^"^  ^"'''^  ^^'^  ""^^^  "^^^"^^^  ^o  sell 

Mr.  GioE.  I  sold  them  tickets. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  the  business  didn't  prosper? 

Mr  Gioe.  It  didn't  prosper  because  the  business  closed  up  for  18 
t?ia?time.  ''  ^"'  '^''  '"^^  ^"^^  "^  P^'"^^"^^  ^^  ^^^^  doing  at 

Mr.  Hallet.  And  then,  when  you  went  back  into  the  business   it 
s  your  testimony  that  you  had  enough  friends  so  that  Ha?ry  tus- 
sell  gave  you  25  percent  of  his  business  ?  ^ 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes ;  I  could  give  him  some  business. 

Mr.  Halley   How  much  of  this  business  did  you  get? 

Mr  GiOE.  How  much  of  the  business  did  I  get?  I  went  out  and 
opened  up  some  accounts.  .      ^  '"^^"^  ^^^  ^^^ 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  accounts  did  you  open  ? 


102  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN  INfTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  GioE.  Well,  maybe  I  got  10  or  20.    I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Well,  name  those  that  you  got. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  went  to  the  lay-offs,  and  I  went  to  these  smaller  books, 
where  they  got  a  $20  bet.  I  went  in  for  small  stuff.  I  couldn't 
afford  to  take  big  gamblers  at  the  time.  You  know  what  I  mean. 
So  a  lot  of  these  people,  they  get  a  $20  bet  on  a  10-to-l  place;  they 
w^ant  some  place  to  lay  it  off,  because  they  can't  stand  to  lose  that 
much  on  one  race.  So  I  knew  a  few  that  were  in  business  at  the 
time,  and  I  got  some  of  their  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  account  for  as  much  as  a  thousand  dollars 
a  day  of  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  would  say  so. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  personally  would  bring  in  a  thousand  dollars  a 

day  ?  1 1 1    • 

Mr.  GioE.  Not  every  day.     But  some  days  that  account  would  brmg 

in  $4,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  say  you  brought  m  half  of  Harry  Rus- 
sell's business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  bring  in  a  quarter  of  it? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  "brought  in  some  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  brought  in  some  business  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  brought  in  some  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  took  no  part  of  the  loss.  You  only  had  a 
quarter  of  the  profits  ?  ,  i  i 

Mr.  GioE.  On  the  basis  of  a  50-50  book,  you  take  no  loss,  and 
you  only  get  50  percent  of  the  winnings,  and  the  bookmaker  takes 
the  loss,  in  order  to  get  the  account.  That  is  how  it  originally  started. 
But  it  didn't  develop  that  way  until  25  percent  of  the  losses  came  m 

there. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  you  would  have  25  percent  of  the  loss,  if 

there  was  a  loss  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  is  right.  .      ,  • 

The  Chairman.  May  I  ask  one  or  two  questions  ?  I  see  here  m  this 

book  the  license  of  your  construction  company  is  Frank  B.  Pantaleo 

and  Charles  J-o-y-e.    Is  that  your  name  ?    How  do  you  pronounce  your 

name,  or  spell  your  name? 

Mr.  Gioe.  In  1934  I  went  to  court  and  changed  it  from  G-i-o-e  to 

J-o-y-e. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  you  do  that  for? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Because  of  the  difficulty  of  the  spelling  and  pronouncing 

tllP  IlclIllG 

The  Chairman.  So,  in  the  beginning  it  was  G-i-o-e  ? 

Mr.  Gioe.  No,  G-i-o-e  was  my  family  name,  but  I  changed  it  to 

The  Chairman.  What  kind  of  name  is  that  ?    J-o-y-e? 

Mr.  Gioe.  I  don't  follow  you,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  I  mean,  are  you  Italian? 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  So,  in  1934,  you  changed  your  name  to  J-o-y-e« 

Mr.  Gioe.  Yes,  sir.  -r    ,    ^ir  ^        o 

The  Chairman.  Now,  in  1930,  did  you  know  Jack  McGurn  i 
Mr.  GiOE.  Yes;  I  would  know  him  around  that  time. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  he  do  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  103 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  called  "Machine-Gun  Jack  McGurn?" 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  How  did  you  happen  to  know  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Well,  he  was  around  with  Tony  Accardo. 

The  Chairman.  And  about  that  time  do  you  remember  when  there 
was  a  massacre  down  at  Fox  Lake,  111.  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Fox  Lake,  111.  ? 

The  Chairman.  Yes,  in  which  three  fellows  were  killed. 

JNIr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  anything  about  it,  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  Were  you  not  arrested  with  Machine-Gun  Jack 
McGurn  about  1930  in  an  automobile  at  Twenty-second  and  Loomis 
Street? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  was  arrested  with  him  once. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  where  were  you  arrested  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  was  just  trying  to  think.  I  don't  know  if  it  was  Twenty- 
second  and  Loomis. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  you  were  arrested  with  him ;  weren't  you  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  What  were  you  doing  with  him  then  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Just  riding  with  him. 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  a  good  friend  of  yours? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No ;  not  particularly  at  the  time.  I  just  got  to  know  the 
fellow. 

The  Chairman.  You  were  both  armed  at  that  time:  were  you  not? 

]\Ir.  GiOE.  AVhen  I  was  with  Jack  McGurn  ?     No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  not  a  rather  notorious  killer? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  don't  know  if  he  was  a  killer,  but  I  didn't 
know 

The  Chairman.  Pretty  rough  fellow ;  was  he  not  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  He  was  an  ex-boxer.     That  is  all  I  know  about  him. 

The  Chairman.  Is  he  still  living  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  about  the  next  year  you  and  Tony  Accardo 
got  arrested  together;  did  you  not? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir;  the  next  year  or  sometime  we  got  arrested.  I 
don't  know  the  year. 

The  Chairman.  Carrying  concealed  weapons? 

Mr.  GiOE.  They  charged  us  with  carrying  concealed  weapons. 

The  Chairman.  What  were  you  carrying  concealed  weapons  for? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  wasn't  carrying  a  concealed  weapon. 

The  Chairman.  Was  Joe  Batters  with  you  at  that  time? 

Mr.  GioE.  That  is  Tony  Accardo. 

The  Chairman.  Oh,  yes ;  that  is  Tony  Accardo. 

Now,  you  said  you  were  in  jail  the  second  time.  Did  you  get  back 
in  jail  after  you  got  out  on  parole? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Where  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  was  picked  up  at  5  o'clock  in  the  morning  at  home  and 
taken  to  the  penitentiary. 

The  Chairman.  How  long  did  you  stay  in,  the  second  time  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Six  months. 

The  Chairman.  Was  that  for  violating  your  parole? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 


104  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  What  did  you  do  to  violate  it? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Nothing. 

The  Chairman.  Who  said  you  violated  it? 
Mr.  GioE.  The  parole  board. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  they  charge  you  with? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Changing  jobs  without  permission. 
The  Chairman.  Had  you  done  that? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  You  said  a  minute  ago  that  you  were  m  the  liquor 
business  with  DeLucia  or  Kicca,  or  that  you  knew  he  was  in  the  liquor 
business. 

Mr.  GiOE.  No;  at  the  time  he  had  this  restaurant,  this  Blue  Grotto 
down  on  Wabash  Avenue. 

The  Chairman.  On  what  avenue  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Wabash  Avenue. 

The  Chairman.  Was  that  a  liquor  place,  a  speakeasy  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  No ;  it  was  a  restaurant.     And,  of  course,  they  sold  wine, 
beer,  and  liquor  in  them  days.     In  fact,  he  had  a  couple  of  restaurants. 
I  think  he  had  one  on  Market  Drive  at  one  time. 

The  Chairman.  Was  that  the  Mr.  DeLucia  who  has  been  here 
today  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  what  liquor  business  was  he  m  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Well,  was  he  in  the  liquor  business  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  No,  but  he  had  this  Kalph  with  him,  I  believe.     They 
made  this  champagne,  this  synthetic  champagne. 

The  Chairman.  They  made  synthetic  champagne?     Ralph  who? 
Mr.  GiOE.  I  can't  thiiik  of  his  last  name. 
The  Chairman.  Where  did  they  make  it  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  know  they  made  it? 
Mr.  GiOE.  They  claimed  they  made  it,  or  bought  it  from  somebody. 
I  couldn't  tell  you.     But  I  bought  it  from  this  Ralph. 
The  Chairman.  And  he  was  in  business  with  DeLucia  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  That  is  right.     He  had  the  restaurant  with  him. 
The  Chairman.  What  years  was  that  ?     During  the  thirties  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Or  was  that  before  prohibition  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  Well,  it's  got  to  be  before  prohibition,  Senator.    I  mean, 
before  repeal  ended  prohibition. 

The  Chairman.  You  knew  that  this  Ralph  and  DeLucia  were  part- 
ners in  that  business— didn't  you— in  that  champagne  business? 
Mr.  GiOE.  They  had  this  restaurant.     I  gathered  that  they  were. 
The  Chairman.  You  operated  in  Kansas  City— did  you  not — at 
one  time? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Never  came  out  to  Kansas  City  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  have  been  in  Kansas  City. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  you  go  there  for  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  was  in  Kansas  City,  there,  for  a  couple  of  weeks. 

The  Chairman.  What  was  that  for? 

Mr.  GiOE.  At  that  time  I  was 


ORGAXIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  105 

Tlie  Chairman.  You  remember  when  vou  were  in  Kansas  City 
W  iien  was  it  ?  -^ 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  was  just  trying  to  think  if  it  was  1936  or  1937 

ihe  Chairman.  All  right.     What  were  you  doing  there  ? 

xMr  GiOE.  >>ell,  I  tried  to  get  some  business,  some  telephone  busi^ 
ness,  lor  the  Russell  office. 

The  Chairjman.  Did  you  get  run  out  of  town  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Out  of  Kansas  City  ? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  Not  that  I  know  of;  no,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Who  did  you  see  in  Kansas  City  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  It  was  Gus  Spozzateri.     He  had  a  restaurant. 

ihe  Chairman.  He  had  a  restaurant « 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes. 

??®  Chairman.  And  did  you  do  some  business  for  Russell  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  We  got  some  business  for  his  office.     At  that  time  there 
was  :^pozzateri  and  Tony  Gizzo  and  Charlie  Carollo. 

Tlie  Chairman.  Did  tony  Gizzo  give  vou  some  business? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Through  that  office. 

The  Chairman.  What  office  ? 
.    ^^;\  9^0E.  Spozzateri  and  Gizzo  and  Charlie  Carollo  had  an  office 
m  which  they  took  the  horses  or  took  bets  with  different  iieople     For 
instance  il  they  had  too  much  on  a  horse,  thev  would  call  us  up,  and 
we  would  take  some.  "  i  ?      ^ 

noH^^  Chair3ian.  They  had  tlie  news  service  down  there,  did  they 
Mr.  GiOE.  In  1936  ? 

The  Chairman.  Well,  whenever  it  was  that  you  were  down  there. 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir,  I  don  t  think  so. 

The  Chairman.  Thev  had  a  horse  parlor,  thou^rh? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  believe  so.     Yes.  "^    ' 

The  Chairman.  And  so  you  got  their  business,  their  lay-off  busi- 
ness, for  you  and  the  Russell  boys  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Right,  I  got  some  of  it. 
^  The  Chahjman.  Who  else  did  you  get  business  from  in  Kansas 

Mr  GioE.  That  was  all.  Well,  through  him  I  imagine  later  on  we 
might  have  developed  some  more,  but  I  couldn't  say  offhand  lust  how 
much  business  we  got  out  of  him. 

The  Chairman.  Who  else  did  you  do  business  with  down  there « 

Mr.  GiOE.  In  Kansas  City  ? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  really  don't  know,  Senator,  if  we  did  any  business  with 
anybody  else  down  there. 

The  Chairman.  Now  who  is  this  Mr.  Dillon  that  helped  to  ar- 
range  to  get  you  a  parole  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  never  met  the  man. 

The  Chairman.  You  knew  of  him,  did  you  not? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Just  what  I  read  in  the  paper 

a  ]Solef ''''''^''''  ^'■^"^^t- Louis?    Did  you  know  somebody  got  you 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

68958— 51— pt.  5 8 


106  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  pay  somebody  to  get  you  one? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  You  did  not  know  anything  about  Mr.  Dillon « 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  .  •  .     ,  •    -d  ,    -i  /^i    i 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  have  a  connection  with  this  Ketaii  L^ierKs 
International  Protective  Association? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  ... 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  have  any  connection  with  any  union 

.activities  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Were  you  ever  a  member  ot  the  union « 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  . 

The  Chairman.  How  about  the  Bartenders  Union  i 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  -rx      i  ,     .i  o 

The  Chairman.  How  large  a  hotel  is  this  Seneca  Hotel,  by  the  way  i 
Mr.  GiOE.  It  is  16  stories.     I  don't  know  how  many  units  they  have. 

I  imao-ine  they  have  four-hundred-some-odd  units. 

The  Chairman.  And  at  the  Seneca  Hotel  you  said  Mr.  Greenberg 

was  one  of  your  people  that  visited  you  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes.  t^      i    i 

The  Chairman.  And  you  mentioned  another  lawyer,   Korshak, 

Sidney  Korshak  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  Yes.  .  .... 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  see  him  frequently?     Did  he  visit  with 

you? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Not  too  frequently. 

The  Chairman.  Is  he  a  lawyer  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir.  ■ 

The  Chairman.  Does  he  represent  you  in  legal  matters?  1 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.  I 

The  Chairman.  Well,  does  he  visit  with  all  these  people  you  have 
been  talking  about,  like  Tony  Accardo  and  Greenberg  and  these  other 
people  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  don't  know  who  he  visits  w^th,  but  I  have  known 
Sidney  a  long  time,  just  as  friends. 

The  Chairman.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  would  say  I  knew  Sidney  maybe  16  or  17  years. 

The  Chairman.  You  were  not  in  school  with  him,  were  you  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  How  did  you  get  to  know  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Through  some  fellows  on  the  West  Side  when  he  just 
opened  his  office.  He  had  just  finished  school  and  opened  an  office,  I 
believe,  about  that  time. 

The  Chairman.  What  fellows  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Oh,  some  kids  he  knew  around  there  that  I  just  happened 
to  know.  It  was  just  a  casual  acquaintance  at  the  time  when  I  met 
him,  just  as  a  lawver.  That  is  all.  I  think  he  handled  a  deal  for 
them  in  regard  to^a  cafe  or  something.  That  was  the  first  time  I 
met  him. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  this  State  Senator  Brady?  Do  you 
know  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Who  did  you  do  business  with  in  St.  Louis? 


ORGAMZED    CRIMEi   IX   LSTTERSTATE    COMMERCE  107 

Mr.  GioE.  I  have  never  been  to  St.  Louis  more  than  just  to  pass 
through.    I  never  knew  anybody  there. 

The  Chairman".  Do  you  know  Tom  Whelan  in  St.  Louis? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Xo,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Molasky  down  there? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Bill  Brown,  Mr.  Brown  in  the  Wire  Service? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Who  was  your  contact  in  St.  Louis? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  had  no  contact  in  St.  Louis.  I  think  Russell  was 
■originally  from  St.  Louis.  He  done  business  with  the  people  in  St. 
Louis.  There  were  different  officers.  There  was  an  officer  by  the  name 
of  Cooper,  I  believe,  and  something  else,  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  of  the  American  Distillery  Co.  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  done  business  with  them  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  get  acquainted  with  that  company  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Through  Jack  Steele. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Jack  Steele. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  is  he  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Jack  Steele,  who  handled  the  American  Distilling  Co. 
products. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  did  you  work  with  Steele  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  the  Rothbergs  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Of  American  Distilling? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  One  Rothberg. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Which  one  is  that  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  believe  it  is  Sam  Rothberg. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  probably  met  him  two  or  three  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  do  you  know  the  Rose  that  is  connected  with 
the  Rothbergs  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't ;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Bugsy  Siegel  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  handles  the  business  for  American  Distilleries 
in  Chicago? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Right  now  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  understood  Jack  Steele  gave  it  up,  and  Eddie  King, 
who  is  counsel  for  the  American  Distillery  in  New  York,  Marshall 
Korshak,  Sidney  Korshak's  brother — I  don't  know  whether  Sidney 
is  interested — and  one  of  the  other  Korshaks 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  is  Marshall  Korshak  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Marshall  Korshak  is  an  attorney. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  is  not  in  partnership  with  Sidney? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No;  he  is  an  attorney,  but  I  think  he  has  something  to 
•  do  with  the  whisky  company  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  who  is  Eddie  King? 


108  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INrTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

Mr.  GiOE.  Eddie  King  is  the  counsel  for  American  Distilling.  And 
lie  used  to  be  a  lawyer  around  Chicago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  used  to  be  in  partnership  with  Sidney  Korshak, 
did  he  not? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know  whether  he  was  a  partner.  They  might 
have  been  in  the  same  law  office.  I  don't  know  wdiether  they  were 
partners. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  James  Curry  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  heard  of  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  James  Curry?     No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Conto  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Joe  Fusco,  of  the  Gold  Seal  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  know  of  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  done  any  business  with  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Joe  Peskin? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  heard  of  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Sugar  Joe  Peskin? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  It  is  a  fact  that  you  have  known  Greenberg  pretty 
intimately ;  isn't  that  right  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Yes.  I  mean  intimately,  that  I  just  had  that  deal  with 
him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  know  this,  too :  that  he  was  fairly  intimate 
with  Al  Capone  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Well,  I  wouldn't  know  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  he  take  over  Capone's  Manhattan  Brewery  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  the  Canadian- Ace  Brewery? 

Mr.  GiOE.  Right.     But  I  don't  know  any  of  the  background. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  have  any  interest  in  Canadian- Ace  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Now,  in  this  business  with  Russell  and  Pierce,  I 
don't  know  whether  I  mentioned  it,  but  did  you  have  some  contact, 
or  a  person  with  whom  you  did  business,  in  New  Orleans  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  believe  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  have  anyone  there  that  you  did  business 
with? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No.  They  might  have  done  some  business,  but  I  never 
knew  anyone  down  there  that  they  did  business  with. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  Philadeli^hia  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  None. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  did  any  busines  with  Herman  Taylor  in 
Philadelphia? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  heard  of  that  name  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  He  is  a  fight  promoter. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  have  heard  of  the  name. 


1 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  •  109 

Mr.  Robinson.  But  you  did  not  do  business  with  him  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  happen  to  meet  him  ? 

:Mr.  GioE.  I  didn't  meet  liim.     You  asked  me  if  I  heard  of  liim. 
I  know  Taylor  is  a  fight  promoter. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  visited  with  him  or  never  met  him  ? 

]\Ir.  GioE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  in  Washington,  here  ? 

INlr.  GiOE.  This  is  the  first  time  I  have  been  here. 

]\fr.  Robinson.  No,  did  you  do  any  business,  while  you  were  in 
this  partnership,  with  anyone  in  Washington? 

Mr.  GioE.  I  don't  think  so. 

]\rr.  Robinson.  Did  you  do  any  business  with  anyone  by  the  name  of 
Beard? 

Mr.  GiOE,  No,  sir. 

]\f  r.  Robinson.  You  never  heard  of  him  ? 

IVIr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  said  you  did  know  Eddie  Vogel? 

Mr.  (iioE.  I  know  of  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  what  business  he  is  in  ? 

]\f  r.  GiOE.  I  understand  he  is  in  the  slot-machine  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  had  any  interest  in  that  business  at  all  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Steve  Schiavone  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Never  heard  of  him  ? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  didn't  know  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  heard  of  him  ? 

Mr.  GioE.  Steve  Schiavone  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  No,  S-c-h-i-a-v-o-n-e. 

Mr.  GiOE.  No ;  I  wouldn't  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Or  Mecessa?     Anyone  by  the  name  of  Mecessa? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.     • 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  your  source  of  liquor  from  the  Capone  business  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  During  the  days  that  you  were  running  it  in  Wis- 
consin into  Iowa  ? 

JMr.  GioE.  No,  there  was  no  such  thing  as  dealing  with  them.  There 
was  any  number  of  people  that  you  could  have  gone  to  that  nobody 
even  knew,  that  handled  it,  around  Wisconsin,  you  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  handled  any  of  that  type  of  business  in 
<Jhicago  ? 

:Mr.  GiOE.  Very  little.     Very  little. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  the  only  amount  that  you  handled  was  this 
amount  that  you  got  from  Ricca's  place? 

Mr.  GiOE.  That  wasn't  no  liquor.  They  had  this  synthetic  wine 
at  that  time.     I  understand  this  Ralph  did.     That  was  about  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  bought  anv  alcohol  from  them« 

Mr.  GiOE.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  retain  any  one  to  endeavor  to  get  a  parole 
tor  you  at  any  time  ?  =>         i 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  who  made  the  arrangement  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  I  know  nothing  about  it. 


110  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  All  you  know  is  that  you  were  paroled.  Right  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Right.  I  applied  in  the  proper  manner  and  was  paroled. 
I  had  54  months  of  good  conduct  in  there.  It  was  the  first  time  that 
I  had  ever  been  in  trouble.  And  I  had  the  recommendation  of  the 
Attorney  General  and  a  letter  from  the  judge.  It  was  a  recommenda- 
tion that  I  be  given  parole.  I  never  saw  10  cents  out  of  it,  and  never 
had  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  state  what  the  name  of  your  accountant  was  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  Shaf  er,  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  right.     Did  Bernstein  ever  handle  any  of 
your  work? 

Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  One  question.     I  notice  here  that  your  partner 
seems  to  draw  $150  a  week  out  of  this  business. 
Mr.  GiOE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  But  you  do  not  draw  anything  out  of  it? 
Mr.  GiOE.  No,  sir.    Well,  as  I  stated,  he  is  the  working  partner, 
and  he  is  working  on  the  job.    So  he  hasn't  any  means  of  livelihood, 
and  I  am  trying  to  build  up  a  bank  roll  so  that  we  have  something  to 
operate  with. 

Mr.  Chairman.  So  that  you  are  leaving  your  money  m  ? 
Mr.  GiOE.  It  is  accruing. 

The  Chairman.  And  your  wife  is  paying  the  expenses  of  living  ? 
Mr.  GioE.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  I  do  not  think  that  we  particularly  need  this  book. 
Mr.  GioE.  I  will  be  very  happy  if  you  will  give  it  to  me  back.    That 
is  the  working  ledger. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  this  the  book  that  you  have  to  produce  to  the 
parole  officer  periodically? 
Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairt>ian.  Whatever  this  ledger  is  marked  as  an  exhibit,,  we 
will  let  the  record  show  that  this  is  a  black  ledger  book  which  is  now 
being  returned  to  the  witness. 
Anything  else,  Mr.  Robinson? 
Mr.  Robinson.  No,  Mr.  Chairman.    I  guess  not. 
The  Chairman.  All  right,  Mr.  Gioe.     You  will  remain  subject  to 
subpena  without  our  having  to  serve  another  subpena  on  you.     When 
you  are  notified  to  appear,  the  subpena  that  has  been  served  on  you 
is  still  valid  without  the  service  of  another  one. 
Mr.  GioE.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  And  these  additional  books  and  records  Mr.  Robin- 
son will  communicate  with  you  about,  and  you  will  abide  by  his  order. 
Tliat  is  all,  and  you  are  f  ree'^to  go  back  to  Chicago. 
Mr.  GiOE.  Thank  you,  sir. 
There  was  an  article  about  me  tliat  I  defied  a  committee.    I  never 

defied  any  committee. 

The  Chairman.  How  did  that  get  into  the  paper? 

Mr.  GiOE.  I  don't  know.  I  went  to  the  marshal's  office  and  picked 
up  the  subpena,  and  that  is  all  that  was  said.  So  the  newspaperman 
asked  me  if  I  got  my  subpena  from  the  Kef auver  committee.  I  said,. 
"Yes,  I  went  up  to  the  marshal's  office  and  took  it."  The  next  thing  I 
knew  there  was  a  headline  that  I  had  defied  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  be  adjourned. 

(Whereupon,  at  4 :  22  p.  m.,  the  committee  adjourned,  subject  to  the 
call  of  the  Chair.) 


INVESTIGATION  OF  ORGANIZED  CRIME  IN  INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 


THURSDAY,   OCTOBER   5,    1950 

United  States  Senate, 
Special  Committee  To  Investigate  Organized 

Crime  in  Interstate  Commerce, 

Chicago^  III. 

EXECUTIVE  SESSION 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  call,  at  10 :  45  a.  m.,  in  room  26T 
United  States  Court  House  (Old  Post  Office  Building),  Chicago,  111., 
Senator  Estes  Kefauver  (chairman),  presiding. 

Present :  Senators  Kefauver  and  Owen  Brewster. 

Also  present:  Rudolph  Halley,  chief  counsel;  George  S.  Robinson, 
associate  counsel;  George  H.  White,  Patrick  H.  Kiley,  William  C. 
Garrett,  and  W.  D.  Amis,  investigators;  and  Julius  Cahn,  adminis- 
trative assistant  to  Senator  Wiley. 

Elmer  Oltman,  Intelligence  Unit,  Bureau  of  Internal  Revenue, 
Kansas  City  Division ;  and  N.  F.  Ortwerth,  Internal  Revenue  Agent, 
St.  Louis  Division. 

Daniel  P.  Sullivan,  operating  director,  Crime  Commission  of 
Greater  Miami ;  and  Walter  J.  Devereux,  chief  investigator,  Chicago 
Crime  Commission,  and  consultant  to  the  committee. 

August  S.  Brown,  special  agent.  Treasury  Intelligence,  Chicago,  111. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

Gentlemen,  we  have  a  rule  of  our  committee  that  we  swear  everybody 
who  is  going  to  testify.  You  do  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you 
will  give  before  the  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and 
nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

The  Honorable  Martin  H.  Kennellt,  (mayor,  city  of  Chicago). 
I  do. 

John  C.  Prendergast  (commissioner  of  police,  city  of  Chicago). 
I  do. 

Ivan  A,  Elliott  (attorney  general,  State  of  Illinois).  I  do. 

Robert  C.  Eardley  (first  assistant  attorney  general.  State  of  Illi- 
nois). I  do. 

Otto  Kerner,  Jr.,  (United  States  attorney,  northern  district  of 
Illinois).  I  do. 

John  S.  Boyle  (State's  attorney,  Cook  County,  111.).  I  do. 

Elmer  Michael  Walsh  (sheriff.  Cook  County,  111.).  I  do. 

Ill 


112  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY  OF  HON.  MARTIN  H.  KENNELLY,  MAYOK,  CITY  OF 
CHICAGO,  ILL.,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  POLICE  COMMISSIONER  JOHN 
C  PRENDERGAST,  CHICAGO,  ILL. ;  ATTORNEY  GENERAL  IVAN  A. 
ELLIOTT,  ILLINOIS;  FIRST  ASSISTANT  ATTORNEY  GENERAL 
ROBERT  C.  EARDLEY,  ILLINOIS;  OTTO  KERNER,  JR.,  UNITED 
STATES  ATTORNEY,  NORTHERN  DISTRICT  OF  ILLINOIS;  JOHN  S. 
BOYLE,  STATE'S  ATTORNEY,  COOK  COUNTY,  ILL.;  ELMER 
MICHAEL  WALSH,  SHERIFF,  COOK  COUNTY,  ILL.;  AND  WALTER 
J.  DEVEREUX,  CHICAGO  CRIME  COMMISSION 

The  Chairman.  Mayor  Kennelly,  we  appreciate  your  coming  today 
to  meet  with  us.     Do  you  have  a  general  statement  ^ 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  prepared  one,  Mr.  Chairman.  It  you  don  t 
mind,  I  will  read  it.  . 

The  Chairman.  Yes,  sir;  that  will  be  very  convenient 

Alayor  Kennelly.  Mr.  Chairman,  Senator  Brewster,  and  your  statt, 
I  welcome  you  gentlemen  of  the  Senate  committee  and  your  statt  to 
Chicao-o  I  assure  you  of  the  sincere  and  wholehearted  cooperation 
of  the^ity  administration  in  the  investigative  work  you  are  doing. 

All  agencies  of  government  must  work  together  m  law  enforcement, 
the  Fecteral  Government,  die  city  government  and  the  State  s  attor- 
j^ey— and  I  can  assure  you  that  you  will  receive  every  support  trom 
State's  Attorney  Boyle. 

It  is  fundamental  in  government,  that  there  shall  be  no  alliance  be- 
tween law  breakers,  law  makers  and  law-enforcement  agencies.  Any 
such  alliance  is  a  challenge  to  the  very  stability  of  government  itselt. 

I  was  elected  mayor  of  Chicago  31/0  years  ago  and  since  that  time, 
day  in  and  day  out,  night  in  and  night  out,  we  have  been  working  to 
make  Chicago  a  better  city  in  which  to  live;  to  create  conhdence  of 
the  people  in  government  and  to  build  up  the  reputation  of  Chicago, 
at  home  and  abroad.  4?    i:„<v 

Chicago  is  my  town.  So  I  am  sure  you  will  appreciate  my  feeling 
regarding  its  good  name.  •     i    r    „ 

We  do  have  our  share  of  crime  in  the  city  of  Chicago,  including 

gambling.  ,    ,       ,  1        £  ±         -p 

I  was  shocked,  as  everyone  was  last  week,  by  the  murder  of  two  ot 
our  citizens.  The  entire  investigative  force  of  the  city  and  tire 
county  are  working  to  solve  these  crimes.  They  must  be  solved  and 
the  perpetrators  brought  to  justice.  If  your  committee,  the  I  Bi,  or 
any  other  agency  can  help  us  we  will  welcome  such  assistance. 

mat  we'^have  been  trying  to  do  is  to  enforce  all  laws— to  create 
aeneral  respect  for  law  and  order  in  Chicago. 

Every  ordinance  on  the  books  is  being  more  strictly  enforced, 
whether  it  involves  gambling,  driving  while  intoxicated,  peddhng 
narcotics,  health  inspection,  regulation  of  taverns,  building  inspection, 
selling  liquor  to  minors— just  to  name  a  few  examples  of  our  law- 
enforcement  program.  T  1    ^1      1      i.  Uo 

Early  in  my  administration,  in  order  to  accomplish  the  best  results 
we  called  in  experts  to  make  a  study  of  the  police  department,  to  see 
where  it  was  weak  and  where  improvements  could  be  made.  As  a  re- 
sult of  these  studies  we  brought  about  a  complete  realmement  of  the 
top  command.  Civil  service  and  the  merit  system  were  strengthened. 
The  detective  bureau  was  reorganized.    The  records  system  was  com- 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    OOAI^VIERCE  113 

pletely  revamped  to  conform  Avitli  FBI  standards.  The  traffic  division 
was  completely  overhauled,  resulting  in  the  saving  of  hundreds  of 
lives.  A  department  of  race  relations  was  inaugurated.  The  crime 
laboratory  was  strengthened.  A  new  department  of  crime  prevention 
was  established.  We  strengthened  the  juvenile  educational  program. 
We  organized  schools  for  all  members  of  the  police  department,  not 
only  recruits  and  patrolmen,  but  sergeants,  lieutenants  and  cai)tains. 
Everyone,  men  and  officers  alike,  were  included  in  the  instruction 
courses  in  up-to-date  police  work. 

I 'am  proud  of  the  progress  we  have  made  in  improving  the  police 
depjirtment.  Under  the  merit  system  as  administered  by  our  civil 
service  connnission,  I  look  for  this  improvement  to  continue."^ 

Official  statistics  show  Chicago's  crime  position  as  compared  with 
other  large  cities.  According  to  analysis  of  the  latest  FBI  figures  of 
cities  of  more  than  10(),()()0  population,  based  on  census  rei)orts  at  that 
time,  Chicago  ranks  twenty-seventh  in  murders;  twentv-fourth  in 
aggravated  assaults;  fifty-eighth  in  burglaries;  forty-third  in  grand 
larceny;  eighty-first  in  petty  larceny;  and  sixty-eighth  in  auto  thefts. 
In  considering  violations  of  the  law,  I  always  try  to  remember  that 
there  are  different  standards  of  conduct.  There  is  the  citizen,  for 
instance,  who  bribes  a  public  offii-ial  or  a  policeman.  And  then  vou 
have  the  individual  who  accepts  the  bribe. 

There  is  the  gambler  who  profits  from  illegal  operations — and  the 
official  who  permits  these  illegal  operations. 

There  is  also  the  ordinary  citizen  who  just  bets.  Without  him  you 
wouldn't  have  any  gambling  business. 

Then  we  have  those  who  encourage  this  betting  with  a  continuous 
sales  campaign. 

So  let's  figure  out  in  what  category  each  of  us  as  a  citizen  belongs. 
Public  support  is  essential  in  any  program  of  law  enforcement. 
I  have  repeatedly  stated,  before"^ and  after  my  election,  that  I  am 
opposed  to  organized  gambling  in  the  city  of  Chicago,  and  we  have 
done  something  about  it. 

The  reduction  in  organized  gambling  today  has  been  stated  to  be 
as  high  as  To  percent. 

Two  years  after  my  election  the  Chicago  Crime  Commission  re- 
ported, "syndicated  crime  is  at  the  lowest  ebb  in  Chicago  than  has 
been  true  for  many  years." 

Since  that  time,  with  the  increased  efficiency  of  the  police  depart- 
ment this  situation  has  been  further  improved. 

There  is  no  longer  an  open  and  flagrant  disrespect  for  the  law  in 
Chicago. 

It  is  obvious  that  the  prevention  of  murder  and  other  crimes  is 
difficult.  The  records  of  the  detective  bureau  show  that  during  the 
first  9  months  of  this  year  ending  October  1,  88.1  percent  of  the 
murders  in  Chicago  have  been  solved.  It  is  also  obvious  that  more 
policemen,  better  trained  policemen — and  better  paid  policemen — will 
have  the  effect  of  tightening  up  law  enforcement  and  serve  to  pre- 
vent crime  before  it  is  committed. 

We  welcome  the  help  of  this  committee. 

We  pledge  you  our  complete  cooperation  in  this  investigation.  And 
in  return  we  ask  that  your  committee  make  available  to  us  and  the  citi- 
zens of  Chicago  all  the  facts  that  you  may  develop  from  your  inves- 
tigation, which  affect  our  city. 


114  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INrTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

I  have  run  my  administration  on  the  principle  that  the  people  are 
entitled  to  all  of  the  facts.  ,  n      v- 

If  yonr  investigation  uncovers  any  tie-up  between  crmie  and  politics 
in  Chicago  I  want  to  know  about  it,  and  the  people  are  entitled  to 
"the  facts. 

Too  long  have  the  same  names  and  generalities  been  bandied  about. 

If  the  facts  are  there — let's  get  them. 

With  all  of  us  working  together  we  can  strike  a  telling  blow  for 
good  government. 

I  thank  you,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mayor  Kennelly. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Mayor,  some  time  ago  we  had  an  informal  dis- 
cussion and  you  stated  some  facts  which  I  think  would  be  of  great 
interest  to  the  committee  on  the  decrease  in  crime  in  Chicago,  steps 
-which  you  had  ordered  to  be  taken  and  steps  which  Commissioner 
Prendergast  took  in  order  to  effect  that  decrease.  Would  you  want 
to  elaborate  on  that  and  give  the  details? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Of  course,  the  only  instructions  I  can  give  as 
mayor  is  to  see  that  all  laws  are  enforced.  We  don't  make  any  dif- 
ferentiation. We  don't  differentiate  between  one  ordinance  or  one  law 
or  another.  I  think  we  have  talked  too  long  about  gambling  and 
letting  everything  else  go.  We  have  a  drive  on  gambling  and  find 
Ihat  every  other  law  in  the  city  was  being  violated.  What  we  have 
done  in  Chicago  is  to  enforce  every  law,  whether  it  be  gambling  or 
not.  My  orders  to  the  commissioner  of  police  are  to  see  that  there 
is  no  gambling  in  Chicago.  He  works  on  that  every  day.  He  gets 
complaints  from  citizens,  from  crime  commissions,  from  his  men  m 
the  field,  and  it  is  his  obligation  to  close  up  the  gambling  operations. 
I  think  it  is  well  known  in  Chicago  that  you  can't  go  m  off  the  street 
now  and  place  a  bet  anywhere  in  Chicago.  I  am  not  saying  that  there 
is  not  gambling  in  Chicago.  People  some  time  like  to  bet.  We 
haven't  changed  their  habits.  But  there  is  no  open,  organized  gam- 
bling that  we  can  find  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Mayor,  as  you  say,  a  number  of  generalities  have 
been  bandied  about.  One  of  them  which  has  been  made  rather  specifi- 
cally is  that  certain  members  of  the  Chicago  police  force  have  grown 
wealthy  in  office.  As  you  know,  the  committee  in  its  investigations  in 
other  ])laces  did  find  one  or  two  law-enforcement  officers  in  certain  com- 
munities who  had  become  very  wealthy  in  office.  I  wonder  if  you 
have  checked  that  and  whether  anything  has  been  done  with  refer- 
ence to  investigating  the  particular  men  who  are  supposed  to  have 
acquired  the  manifestations,  at  least,  of  wealth. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  There  wouldn't  be  any  way  for  us  to  check 
whether  they  are  wealthy  or  not. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  instance,  would  your  police  department  have  the 
authority  to  call  in  and  question  men  in  the  law  enforcement  depart- 
ment who  have  the  outward  manifestations  of  wealth  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  If  that  wealth  was  acquired  before  he  came  into 
office,"l  wouldn't  think  it  would  be  my  obligation  to  investigate  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Suppose  it  were  acquired  while  they  were  on  the 
police  force?  .  ^ 

Mayor  Kennelly.  How  would  we  go  about  questioning  police  offi- 
cials as  to  their  wealth  ?     Just  ask  him  the  question  ? 


ORGAN^IZED    CRIME^   EN"   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  115 

Mr.  Halley.  Just  bluntly  put  it  to  him :  "How  do  you  on  a  police- 
man's salary  now  have,  say,  a  ranch  in  the  Southwest,  an  expensive 
automobile,  a  fine  house,  and  so  forth.  How  much  money  have  you 
in  the  bank?" 

Has  anj^thing  like  that  been  done  and  do  you  have  authority  to  do 
anything  like  that  ? 

Mayor  Kenxellt.  I  question  that.  I  wouldn't  know  without  ask- 
ing the  State's  attorney  whether  we  have  that  kind  of  authority. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Do  you  know  whether  there  is  that  authority,  Mr. 
Boyle? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  don't  know  whether  the  man  could  refuse  to  answer 
or  not.  If  he  did  refuse  to  answer,  what  crime  would  he  commit? 
That  is  the  answer.  Would  he  be  subject  to  dismissal  from  the  Chi- 
cago Police  Department  or  not  \  I  don't  know.  I  don't  know  enough 
about  civil  service  rules  and  regulations. 

Mr,  Halley.  At  this  stage  of  the  inquiry,  at  this  point  with  nothing 
■on  the  record  but  your  statement,  I  prefer  not  to  pursue  that  subject, 
except  to  say  generally  that  the  committee  has  certain  income  tax  in- 
formation in  its  possession  which  indicates  that  certain  members  of 
the  jDolice  force  and  certain  law-enforcement  officers  have  wealth.  Of 
course  they  may  have  acquired  it  through  very  intelligent  investments. 
We  just  don't  know  yet. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Will  vou  make  that  information  available  to 
me?   ' 

Mr.  Halley.  Certainly. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Will  it  be  made  public  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  That  will  be  at  the  committee's  discretion. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  think  it  should  be.  I  think  if  there  is  any- 
body on  the  police  department  or  in  government  who  can't  account 
for  their  income,  who  can't  show  that  it  has  been  properly  acquired, 
he  should  not  be  connected  with  the  police  department  or  with 
government. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  Would  you  state  to  the  committee,  Mr.  Mayor,  whether 
in  all  the  time  j^ou  have  been  in  office  anybody  not  holding  official 
position  has  attempted  to  influence  you  in  the  placement  of  police 
officers  in  any  particular  district,  or  in  their  removal?  That  again 
has  been  bandied  about  and  that  is  why  I  ask  the  question. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  One  of  my  first  instructions  to  the  commis- 
sioner of  police  when  I  became  mayor  was  that  I  was  the  only  one  to 
give  liim  instructions,  that  he  was  not  to  take  instructions  from  any- 
body outside  of  my  office,  that  no  politician  should  give  him  instruc- 
tions, and  that  no  one  could  control  the  placing  of  captains  or  any 
other  officials  in  the  police  department.  I  believe  he  has  followed  out 
those  instructions. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  your  feeling  that  at  this  time,  with  of  course  the 
minimum  of  exceptions  that  are  beyond  control,  the  police  force  of 
Chicago  is  honest  and  the  individual  members  are  doing  an  honest 
job  of  law  enforcement? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  believe  so.  I  think  so.  I  think  we  have  a 
good  police  department.  I  never  go  back  prior  to  my  administration 
because  everybody  has  his  own  problems.  I  certainly  would  not  be 
critical  of  what  happened  20  or  25  years  ago  in  Chicago.  Policemen 
are  of  course  human  beings.  I  pointed  out  a  few  days  ago  to  a  friend 
vof  mine  that  I  was  talking  to  about  police  work  that  everyone  who  is 


116  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN   INTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

arrested  in  Chicago  or  any  other  city  immdiately  tries  to  get  ont  of 
it,  whether  he  be  a  supposedly  good  citizen,  whether  he  be  a  lawyer, 
or  a  ])olitician.  He  immediately  tries  to  figure  out  how^  he  can  beat 
it,  as  they  say.  He  is  not  adverse  to  using  any  method  he  can  use  to 
attain  his  objective  of  not  going  to  jail.  I  have  in  mind  a  man  whose 
relatives  were  arrested  for  driving  while  intoxicated.  This  man  said 
to  me,  '*!  will  do  anything  to  keep  them  from  going  to  jail."  That  is 
what  the  pol  iceman  is  up  against.  That  is  what  law  enforcement  agen- 
cies are  up  against.  The  citizens  themselves  bribe  or  attempt  to  bribe 
them.  All  that  w^e  have  been  able  to  do  in  Chicago,  as  I  see  it,  is  first 
to  let  them  know  that  as  far  as  this  administration  is  concerned  we  are 
trying  to  run  an  honest  administration.  We  don't  stand  for  any  fix- 
ing. We  don't  stand  for  any  politics  in  the  police  department.  I  have 
had  people  come  to  me  in  politics,  surely.  I  am  in  politics.  I  am  a 
politician.  Some  say  I  am  a  poor  one,  but  I  am  a  politician.  One 
man  said,  "I  would  like  to  have  a  certain  captain  sent  to  my  district." 
I  said,  "Can  you  vouch  for  him?  Is  he  a  good  police  officer^  Does 
he  know  how  to  prevent  crime  in  his  district  ?  Does  he  Ivnow  how  to 
prosecute  crime  when  he  gets  it?" 

He  said,  "I  want  a  man  put  in  the  district." 

Mr.  Halley.  Will  you  give  the  commitee  the  names? 

Mayor  Kenxelly.  No;  because  he  didn't  accomplish  his  purpose. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  think  the  committee  would  have  a  great  interest  in 
knowing  who  would  want  to  accomplish  that. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Xo  ;  I  wouldn't  give  you  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Don't  you  think  it  would  help  us 

Mayor  Kennelly.  No,  not  in  this  particular  instance. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  arriving  at  our  conclusions  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  This  fellow  really  happens  to  be  a  pretty  good 
fellow.  I  wouldn't  put  him  in  the  category  of  one  wdio  was  trying  to 
fix  anything.  That  is  the  feeling.  That  has  been  the  feeling,  that 
the  i^olice  department  should  be  controlled  by  men  in  politics. 

Mr.  Halley.  Isn't  that  a  big  part  of  our  problem,  that  we  don't 
want  to  hurt  the  innocent,  we  certainly  don't  want  to  ruin  reputations 
or  do  anything  that  would  be  irresponsible  ?  At  the  same  time  in  an 
effort  to  be  fair  and  in  effect  to  be  good  fellows,  too,  sometimes  some 
of  us  are  used,  and  perhaps  by  talking  to  this  man  we  might  find  out 
how  this  came  about.     Maybe  somebody  was  trying  to  use  him. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  No;  this  fellow  didn't.  I  don't  think  he  knew 
what  he  was  asking.  I  don't  remember  his  name,  as  a  matter  of  fact. 
No ;  I  don't  remember  the  name  of  the  captain.  Tliis  was  when  I  came 
into  office  3i/^  years  ago. . 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Mayor,  one  of  the  things  we  discussed  and  on 
which  I  must  say  I  thought  your  position  was  quite  reasonable  at  the 
time  we  had  our  informal  discussion  was  the  fact  that  obviously  a  city 
like  Chicago,  which  welcomes  large  numbers  of  visitors,  must  offer 
some  types  of  entertainment  and  that  obviously  there  must  be  a  limit 
to  the  amount  of  strict  clamping  down  on  all  minor  violations  of  the 
law  involved  in  the  entertainment  field.     Am  I  right  there? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  never  knew  of  that  policy  myself.  I  don't 
believe  any  law  should  be  violated  just  because  conventions  come 
to  town.  The  laws  on  the  books  ought  to  be  enforced,  regardless  of 
whether  it  is  for  out-of-town  people  or  those  at  home. 


ORGANIZED    CRniE^   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  117 

Mr.  Halley.  That  would  be  your  view  ? 

Mayor  Kexnelly.  That  would  be  my  view. 

Mr.  Halley.  We  have  had  little  opportunity,  having  just  opened 
these  hearings  here  today,  to  check  what  may  be  just  general  state- 
ments, but  a  number  of  statements  have  been  made  to  the  committee 
that  certain  areas  of  the  city  do  operate  on  a  more  or  less  open  basis 
not  involving  any  bookmaking  or  serious  offenses,  but  that  liquor  is 
sold  illegally,  that  various  types  of  operations  to  take  money  away 
from  visitors  are  used,  in  short  to  clip  them.  I  was  wondering  if  that 
had  come  to  your  attention  and  if  it  is  so  or  not.     Do  you  know? 

Mayor  Kexxelly.  Whether  there  are  clip  joints  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Whether  there  are  clip  joints,  whether  tliere  are  people 
cheating  visitors,  whether  there  is  liquor  being  sold  in  violation  of 
the  law. 

Mayor  Kenxelly.  I  never  heard  of  liquor  being  sold  in  violation 
of  the  law.  There  have  been  some  statements  made  to  me  and  to  the 
press  that  some  of  these  visitors  are  clipped,  as  you  call  it.  We 
don't  stand  for  that.  As  soon  as  it  comes  to  our  attention,  instructions 
are  given  to  the  commissioner  of  police  to  clear  up  the  situation,  to 
revoke  licenses,  if  necessary. 

Mr.  Halley.  At  the  present  time  are  there  any  parts  of  the  city  in 
which  dance  halls  operate  with  minor  infractions  of  the  law  in  order 
to  please  the  visitors  ? 

5layor  Kexxelly.  I  wouldn't  know  about  that.  I  never  heard  of  a 
dance  hall  complaint  since  I  have  been  mayor. 

Mr.  Halley.  Or  saloons  or  cabarets  ? 

Mayor  Kexxelly.  We  have  10,000-some-hundred  taverns  in  Chi- 
cago. We  revoke  their  licenses  if  we  have  a  complaint  about  them  in 
our  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  By  and  large,  then,  would  you  say  that  the  general 
su])ervision  of  the  taverns  and  the  entertainment  facilities  is  strict? 

Mayor  Kexxelly.  I  hope  it  is. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  your  instructions  to  the  police  force  are  to  keep 
them  strict,  is  that  right  ? 

]Slayor  Kex^^x^elly.  They  all  know  when  it  gets  into  my  office  that  is 
the  end  of  the  license. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  haven't  had  any  complaints? 

INIayor  Kexxelly.  No.    You  mean  complaints  from  citizens. 

]Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

Mayor  Kexx-elly.  Occasionally  I  get  letters.  I  probably  get  a 
couple  of  letters  a  week,  anonymous,  saying  a  place  is  running  gam- 
bling on  the  side.  I  turn  it  over  to  the  police  department  even  though 
it  is  anonymous  and  investigate  it.  We  investigate  every  complaint 
and  try  to  do  something  about  it. 
We  investigate  every  complaint  and  try  to  do  something  about  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  are  satisfied  that  there  is  no  widespread  area 
of  violation,  even  minor  violation,  of  law? 

Mayor  Kexxelly.  I  wouldn't  go  that  far.  I  think  you  have  to 
take  into  consideration  tlie  human  elements  involved. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  what  I  had  in  mind,  particularly  in  the  enter- 
tainment field. 

Maj'or  Kexxelly.  I  am  sure  there  is  always  room  for  improvement. 
We  are  not  holding  ourselves  out  as  a  holier-than-thou  city  or  people. 


118  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

We  are  trying  to  better  the  conditions  here.  That  is  about  all  anyone- 
in  government  can  hope  to  do, 

Mr.  Halley.  To  the  extent  that  there  is  room  for  improvement, 
would  you  say  that  that  room  for  improvement  is  within  the  area  of 
this  committee,  that  is,  having  to  do  with  organized  crime  and  having 
to  do  with  interstate  relation&liips  ?  Or  is  it  just  on  a  purely  local  and 
petty  level  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Of  course  I  can't  tell.  These  names  that  you 
read  in  the  paper,  I  have  been  reading  them  for  a  good  many  years, 
the  same  names,  the  same  charges.  As  I  said  in  my  statement  to  the 
committee,  we  ought  to  try  to  get  the  facts  and  see  whether  they  have 
these  connections.  We  ought  to  find  out  about  this  captain  who  has 
wealth  and  can't  account  for  it,  where  he  got  it.    I  am  for  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  fairness  he  hasn't  yet  been  asked  to  account  for  it,. 
and  there  is  more  than  one,  I  might  also  say. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Whoever  they  are,  they  haven't  any  place  in  my 
administration.  We  don't  want  them  around  if  they  are  taking  money 
from  outside  sources,  no  matter  who  they  are. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  those  rumors  had  not  come  to  your  attention? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  read  things  in  the  paper.  I  follow  it  very 
carefully.  I  think  you  will  find  and  your  investigators  will  find  there 
is  less  politics  in  the  police  department  than  in  its  history — and  tliis 
is  off  the  record  because  we  are  not  bragging  about  it.  I  think  there  is- 
less  politics  in  the  police  department  than  at  any  time  in  its  history. 
There  is  no  one  who  can  say  that  they  can  come  to  the  mayor's  office 
and  get  anything  fixed  in  the  police  department,  no  one.  That  is  the 
source  of  control  of  the  police  department. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  that  be  true  in  the  police  enforcement  at  the 
local  level,  for  instance  the  captain  in  the  precinct? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  These  captains,  some  of  them  have  been  there  for 
years.  In  order  to  remove  them,  you  have  to  prefer  charges,  you  have 
to  have  the  facts.  You  can't  just  go  and  say  we  don't  like  you  and 
think  you  are  no  good  and  we  have  to  eliminate  you  from  the  police' 
department. 

Mr.  Halley.  Has  there  been  any  policy  in  Chicago  of  making 
changes  in  personnel  by  shifting  people  to  dift'erent  jobs  without  any 
particular  criticism  of  them  but  simply  to  keep  them  on  their  toes  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  That  is  a  policy  that  has  been  debated  among 
the  police  officials.  When  I  first  came  in  we  had  a  police  commissioner 
and  no  assistants.  The  captains  in  the  districts  ran  their  districts. 
Of  course,  I  am  new  to  this  business  of  police  work  and  don't  know 
too  much  about  it  and  I  don't  pose  as  an  expert  now.  I  felt  sure  that 
it  was  not  the  right  way  that  it  should  be  run.  Ten  thousand  five  hun.- 
dred  taverns  in  themselves  are  a  problem.  So  we  brought  an  expert 
adviser  into  the  police  department.  We  put  him  on  the  staff  and  it 
took  him  6  or  8  months  or  a  year  to  see  what  we  could  do  to  strengthens 
the  police  department. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  did  you  bring  in  ? 

IVIayor  Kennelly.  Col.  Franklin  Kremel. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  the  record,  would  you  state  what  his  prior  expe- 
riences had  been? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  He  is  connected  with  Northwestern  University 
in  charge  of  the  traffic  school  up  there.    What  his  background  is  I 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE   COMMERCE  119' 

have  in  the  office.  He  is  well  regarded  and  well  known  throughont  the 
country.  Some  say  he  is  an  expert  on  traffic,  but  he  was  very  helpful 
to  us  in  his  study  because  of  his  knowledge  of  the  local  situation.  I 
talked  to  a  lot  of  people  about  the  police  department.  Some  thought 
that  I  ought  to  bring  in  an  outsider  from  Xew  York.  The  best  ad- 
vice I  could  receive  was  that  that  would  be  a  mistake,  that  I  would 
have  to  have  somebody  on  the  grounds.  So  I  started  out  to  find  what 
I  thought  were  honest  men  to  put  in  the  top  command.  That,  to  me, 
was  fundamental.  First,  were  they  honest?  That  was  the  first  thing 
I  did.  It  took  me  a  long  time  to  find  them.  This  is  not  easy  work  as 
you  probably  have  found.  I  found  Commissioner  Prenclergast  here, 
and  everybody  agreed  that  he  was  honest.  I  then  tried  to  find  out 
who  he  could  get  for  his  assistants.  There  were  a  lot  of  suggestions 
made  to  me  which  came  in  from  good  citizens  and  even  from  crime 
violators. 

The  papers  made  suggestions.  I  didn't  take  those  suggestions,  be- 
cause there  was  no  one  running  the  police  department  but  the  mayor. 
Some  may  have  been  all  right,  but  they  didn't  know  the  score.  I 
talked  to  the  FBI,  the  top  people.  I  said  I  want  to  get  some  staff 
here  so  that  when  they  come  into  my  office  I  know  they  are  honest. 
That  is  where  we  start,  with  an  honest  top  command.  We  ended  up 
with  Deputy  O'Connor.  When  we  made  him  chief  first  deputy' — is 
that  his  title  ? 

Commissioner  Prexdergast.  Deputy  in  charge  of  field  service. 

]Mayor  Kexxellt.  The  papers  carried  the  story  that  he  was  one 
man  that  his  alderman  or  board  member  didn't  know.  That  was  a 
great  recommendation  as  far  as  I  was  concerned.  We  did  that  all  the 
Avay  down  the  line,  with  the  chief  of  detectives,  and  so  on,  people  that 
we  had  confidence  in.  So  we  built  our  staff.  There  was  one  commis- 
sioner for  25  or  30  years  trying  to  run  the  police  department. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  you  fire  or  remove  anybody  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  shift  anybody  from  major  assignments? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Oh,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  you  state  in  general  what  shifts  were  made,  just 
the  major  ones? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  The  chief  of  detectives.  I  put  in  his  assistant^ 
Andrew  Aiken.  That  wasn't  any  reflection  on  the  man  who  was  there, 
but  we  weren't  solving,  in  my  opinion,  the  number  of  murders  and 
crimes  that  I  thought  we  should.  I  thought  I  ought  to  do  something 
about  it.  The  man  who  was  captain  in  the  district.  Storms,  was 
apparently  doing  a  good  job.  We  transferred  this  fellow.  Then  we 
started  to  discuss  the  question  of  transferring  captains  when  some- 
thing happens  in  a  district.  I  had  been  reading  about  transfers  all 
my  life  in  the  police  department.  It  always  sounded  like  a  lot  of 
baloney  to  me,  just  done  for  effect.  I  said  to  Prendergast,  keep  them 
there  and  make  them  do  it  right  there.  Don't  transfer  them  out 
because  something  happens.  Keep  them  there  and  then  we  can  hold 
them  responsible  for  that  district.  Transfer  him  out,  and  he  would 
say,  "I  am  new  in  this  district  and  the  other  fellow  is  new  in  tliat  dis- 
trict." It  would  have  been  easier  to  make  the  headlines  with  a  lot 
of  transfers,  but  we  have  kept  it  to  a  minimum.  I  mean  we  don't 
do  it  just  because  there  is  a  gambling  joint  running  out  there  and  w& 


120  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

find  it.  We  don't  transfer  them  ont  for  that.  I  don't  feel  that  is 
the  way  to  do  it.  Yon  don't  do  it  in  bnsiness  and  yon  shouldn't  do 
it  in  the  police  department. 

Mr.  Halley.  E'rom  your  experience  how  should  the  committee 
approach  that  problem  in  its  thinking,  where  we  find  a  gambling  joint 
running  wide  open  in  an  area  and  a  police  captain  who  has  been 
in  the  area  for  10  years,  mustn't  the  committee  assume  that  he  knew 
about  it  and  condoned  it? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  have  mistaken  that  position.  We  had  a  case 
here  a  couple  of  weeks  ago.  I  had  forgotten  the  incident.  I  said 
to  the  commissioner  of  police,  you  can't  tell  me,  while  it  was  up  on 
the  second  floor,  that  he  didn't  know  about  it,  the  captain  or  some- 
one knew  about  it  in  the  district  or  it  couldn't  be  running. 

Mr.  Haeley.  In  a  case  like  that  do  you  bring  the  captain  up  on 
departmental  charges  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  The  commissioner  talks  to  him.  I  don't  talk 
to  the  captains  myself. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  any  of  them  been  brought  up  on  charges  and 
fired? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  They  have  been  brought  up  to  the  department. 
Commissioner  Prendergast  has  tlie  authority  to  suspend  them  for  29 
days  and  then  to  resuspend  them.  You  have  suspended  a  good  many 
captains,  have  you  not,  Commissioner? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Some  time  ago ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Could  you  give  us  a  list  of  the  captains  who  were 
suspended?  If  you  don't  have  it  right  here.  Commissioner,  will  you 
provide  it  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Any  information  that  you  want.  We  want  to 
help  you.  | 

(The  information  furnished  by  Commissioner  Prendergast  is  iden- 
tified as  exhibit  No.  20  and  is  on  file  with  the  committee.) 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  anybody  actually  fired? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Only  Drury  and  Connelly,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  were  the  only  two  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Yes.     Is  that  right?      Do  you  remember  that? 

Mr.  Boyle.  There  Avere  other  police  captains  fired,  but  they  werp 
restored  by  court  orders. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  am  not  familiar  with  the  details. 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  were  fired  by  the  Civil  Service  Commission  of 
Chicago,  but  they  appealed  their  cases  to  the  courts.  I  understand 
several  of  them  w^ent  to  the  appellate  court  and  they  were  reinstated 
by  the  court.  I  think  there  were  seven  policemen  fired  at  one  time; 
isn't  that  correct;  and  the  civil  service  commission  put  them  off  the 
Chicago  Police  Department  and  they  got  a  court  order  restoring 
them  to  their  rights  and  even  with  back  pay,  as  I  understand  it.  I 
think  that  was  before  Mayor  Kennelly  took  office.  I  am  sure  it 
was. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  It  was. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  would  be  best  able  to  give  the  committee  the  facts 
on  that  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  can  get  it  for  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  That  is  some  years  ago. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME^   IN   INTERSTATE   COMMERCE  121 

Mr.  Halley.  Just  one  other  tiling,  Mr.  Mayor.  Is  there  any  prac- 
tice in  Chicago  or  any  authority  for  the  practice  of  bringing  in  the 
well-known  hoodlums  for  questioning  from  time  to  time  to  find  out 
what  they  are  doing  ^ 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  wouldn't  be  able  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  thiidv  the  chief  of  detectives  could  answer  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  he  here  t 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  That  is  his  responsibility.  No,  he  is  not  here, 
but  I  can  get  him  here  any  time  you  want. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know,  Mr.  Boyle  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  will  excuse  me  for  smiling,  but  of  course  we  had 
Ricca.  Campagna,  and  Gioe  in,  and  they  had  to  answer  questions 
because  they  were  on  Federal  parole,  and  if  they  didn't  cooperate 
with  the  authorities  that  would  be  a  violation  of  their  parole.  The 
other  night  1  was  severely  criticized  for  violating  the  civil  rights 
of  people  in  tliis  community  at  the  Chicago  Bar  Association  and 
also  that  I  was  persecuting  people  rather  than  prosecuting  them. 
So  you  have  one  group  of  people  who  are  interested  in  civil  rights, 
and  then  you  have  another  grouj)  of  people  who  are  lawbreakers  who 
probably  have  no  civil  rights,  in  my  opinion.  Do  you  mean  that 
certain  people  wdio  are  known  hoodlums  should  be  picked  up  around 
the  streets  of  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  And  brought  in  and  asked  ''AVhat  are  vou  doing  these 
days?" 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  a  matter  for  the  police  department. 

Mr.  Halley.  Has  the  police  department  done  it,  do  you  know, 
Commissioner? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Not  to  a  great  extent. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you.    I  have  no  other  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  Senator  Brewster,  we  ho2:)e  that  as  long  as  possible 
you  will  stay  with  us  today  and  tomorrow  and  the  next  day.  Be- 
cause of  the  exigencies  of  the  campaign  and  what  not,  we  ai'e  a  little 
short  of  committee  members,  and  we  would  welcome  you  to  stay  and 
participate  in  proceedings. 

Would  you  like  to  ask  Mayor  Ivennelly  some  questions? 

Senator  Brewster.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  very  much  appreciate  your 
courteous  suggestion  that  I  sit  in  this  morning.  As  you  know,  I  took 
a  great  deal  of  interest  in  some  of  the  procedures  to  try  and  focus 
national  attention  on  these  problems.  I  ha])pened  to  be  in  town  to- 
day. I  shall  not  be  able  to  sit  in  to  any  substantial  extent,  but  I  am  very 
happy  to  see  the  start  of  what  I  certainly  hope  will  prove  a  very  con- 
structive investigation.  I  am  sorry  that  my  colleagues  who  are  mem- 
bers of  the  committee  on  both  sides  of  the  aisle  aside  from  yourself  are 
not  able  to  be  here,  two  on  the  minority  side,  because  they  are  involved 
in  campaigns  at  this  time  which  seem  to  demand  their  attention,  and 
the  members  on  your  side,  I  presume  have  other  responsibilities  as 
well.  I  don't  believe  that  I  should  undei'  the  circumstances  undei'take 
({uestions  because  I  have  had  some  ex])erience  in  this  field  niyself  and 
I  know^  the  extent  to  which  most  careful  preparation  is  necessary.  I 
am,  however,  interested  in  the  general  tone  and  tenor  and  I  am  haj^py 
to  spend  as  much  time  as  I  can  while  I  am  in  town.  I  certaiidy 
appreciate  your  courtesy  and  consideration. 

68958— 51— pt.  5 9 


122  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you,  Senator  Brewster.  It  should  be  re- 
called that  Senator  Brewster  made  a  speech  on  the  floor  of  the  Senate 
about  inrtltration  of  molester  or  fyan<jster  elements  into  le<iitimate  busi- 
nesses, which  is  one  of  the  very  im])ortant  things  that  we  want  to  look 
into,  which  had  a  oood  deal  to  do,  I  think,  with  o;ettinf!;  the  Senate  to 
consider  favorably  the  creation  of  this  connnittee.  AVe  would  be  very 
<i;lad  if  you  would  ask  any  questions. 

Senator  Brewster.  Thank  yon.  I  am  olad  you  s})oke  of  that.  I  did 
make  as  eloquent  an  appeal  as  I  could  to  the  Senate  to  take  cognizance 
of  this  situation  in  some  appropriate  way.  I  didn't  undertake  to  say 
just  how  it  should  be  done,  and  I  did,  as  you  doubtless  know,  turn  over 
to  the  committee  quite  a  little  material  which  had  been  supplied  me 
l)earino-  on  various  ])hases  of  this  matter  throughout  the  country,  which 
1  made  available.  I  hope  that  material  may  to  some  extent  have  been 
heli:)ful.  If  as  time  goes  on  there  is  any  more  material  I  get,  I  cer- 
taiidy  will  make  it  available  to  the  committee. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Will  you  keep  this  otf  the  record  ? 

The  Chairman.  Off  the  record. 

( Discussion  off  the  record. ) 

Mayor  Kennelly.  We  close  taverns  on  the  evidence  of  the  police 
department.  I  revoke  the  license.  We  do  it  regardless  of  who  is 
involved,  who  knows  who,  or  anything  else. 

The  Chairman.  Mayor  Kennelly,  I  appreciate  very  much  your 
splendid  statement  and  your  words  of  welcome  to  us.  I  want  to  ask 
you  one  or  two  questions. 

I  was  impressed  by  the  fact  that  the  civil  service  had  authorized  the 
dismissal  of  some  policemen  or  captains  who  you  felt  were  doing  wrong 
and  the  court  somehow  or  other  had  reinstated  them.  How  does  that 
come  about  ?     Is  that  because  of  some  defect  in  the  law  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  The  State's  attorney  made  that  statement. 

The  Chairman.  We  will  ask  him. 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  have  a  right  to  appeal  on  the  theory  that  a  police 
officer  or  a  man  holding  an  office  of  sergeant,  lieutenant,  or  captain  in 
the  Chicago  Police  Department  has  a  certain  vested  right  if  he  has 
15  or  18  years  in  the  police  department,  and  at  the  end  of  20  years  he 
is  entitled  to  pension.  In  that  case  they  appealed  the  ruling  of  our 
ciA'il  service  commission  to  the  court  here.  If  the  court  rules  with  the 
civil  service  commission,  they  appeal  to  the  appellate  court,  and  from 
the  appellate  court  to  the  supreme  court,  if  necessary.  In  many  in- 
stances where  police  officers  have  been  fired  from  the  Chicago  Police 
Department  by  the  civil  service  commission,  court  orders  have  been 
entered  reinstating  them. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  rather  demoralizing,  isn't  it? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes ;  it  is. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  fault?     Where  is  the  difficulty? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Going  back  to  the  Drury-Connelly  case,  when  they  were 
let  go  by  the  Chicago  Civil  Service  Commission  they  filed  a  petition 
before  I  believe  it  Avas  Judge  Sbarbaro,  and  he  reinstated  them.  The 
city  appealed  from  his  order  to  the  appellate  court  and  the  appellate 
court  said  they  had  no  right  to  reinstate  them.  Then  it  went  to  the 
supreme  court  and  the  supreme  court  reversed  the  appellate  court. 
The  courts  have  a  right  to  review  the  actions  of  the  civil  service  com- 
mission.    It  is  not  final. 

The  Chairman.  They  do  it  on  the  evidence? 


ORGANIZED    CRIAIE    IX   INTERSTATE    OOMMERCE  123 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  have  a  whole  new  case.  We  follow  in  our  courts 
the  strict  rules  of  evidence,  which  the}'  do  not  follow  in  the  civil  service 
commission. 

The  Chairman.  Mayor  Kennelly.  you  have  Commissioner  Pender- 
gast,  the  head  of  the  police  system.  What  is  the  set-up  of  the  city 
government  of  the  city  of  Chicago  ?  How  many  commissioners  do  you 
have  ? 

iNIayor  Kexxelly.  In  the  police  department  ? 

The  Chairman.  No;  I  mean  generally. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  We  have  the  commissioner  of  public  Avorks, 
building  commissioner,  streets  and  alleys  commissioner,  highway  com- 
missioner, health  commissioner,  and  so  on. 

The  Chairman.  Are  they  all  appointed  by  the  mayor? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  All  appointed  by  the  mayor. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  an  advisory  body,  a  council,  or  a 
connnission  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  No. 

The  Chairman.  A  city  council? 

IMayor  Kennelly.  The  city  council  confirms  the  appointments. 

The  Chairman.  But  you  make  the  recommendation ;  you  make  the. 
appointment  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  They  have  only  the  power  of  confirmation  ? 

JSIayor  Kennelly.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Do  they  have  the  power  of  discharge  or  is  that  solely 
in  you? 

]Mayor  Kennelly.  That  is  solely  in  my  hands.  That  is  my  respon- 
sibility. The  commissioner  is  the  one  appointive  officer  in  the  depart- 
ment. The  others  are  civil  service.  He  has  the  civil-service  rank  of 
captain.  The  others  are  all  civil  service  and  I  couldn't  remove  them 
without  charges  being  preferred. 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  With  the  exception  of  the  deputies. 

INIayor  Kennelly.  I  can  remove  them  from  deputy  positions  but 
not  from  the  force. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  They  are  regular  captains. 

The  Chairman.  This  civil  service  system  that  you  have  in  thi^  police- 
department,  do  you  think  it  is  a  good  civil  service  system  ?  How  are 
the  members  of  the  civil  service  board  selected  or  appointed  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Appointed  by  the  mayor. 

The  Chairman.  And  subject  to  the  approval  of  the  council  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Subject  to  the  approval  of  the  council. 

The  Chairman.  Is  the  council  nonpartisan  or  bipartisan  or  Demo- 
cratic or  Eepublican  or  how  do  they  run  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  At  election  time  it  is  nonpartisan  when  they  are 
running  for  office,  it  is  political  when  they  are  not,  and  it  is  biparti- 
san in  many  instances. 

The  Chairman.  How  manj^  members  of  the  city  council  are  there  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Fifty.  Seventeen  are  rated  as  Republicans,  and. 
thirty-three  Democrats. 

The  Chairman.  How  often  do  they  meet,  usually? 

]Mayor  Kenneixy.  Every  2  weeks.  3  weeks. 

The  Chairinian.  Their  power  is  the  power  of  veto  insofar  as  the 
police  department  is  concerned  largely,  is  it  not  ? 

Mavor  Kennelly.  Thev  have  the  right  of  investigation. 


124  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  In  the  talk  and  wliat  not  around — and  we  are  all 
just  talkino;  things  over  here — I  have  heard  people  say  and  I  have  read 
that  some  time  back  in  any  event  a  lot  of  people  had  the  idea  that 
money  was  paid  by  somebody  for  the  purpose  of  getting  a  certain 
position  in  the  police  department  and  while  you  now  liave  a  good  civil 
service  connnission,  it  was  very  difficult  to  get  a  lot  of  people  really  to 
appreciate  the  fact  that  things  were  truly  on  their  merits  in  the  police 
department,  that  they  still  thought  that  some  favoi- 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  think  they  are  gradually  getting  to  know  that 
it  is  on  the  square. 

The  Chairman.  You  are  satisfied  that  there  isn't  any  of  that  going 
on  now  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Without  question  of  doubt  we  have  probably  the 
best  civil  service  commission  that  Chicago  ever  had. 

The  Chairman.  Are  they  appointed  for  terms,  the  members  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  They  are  appointed  for  a  term.  I  just  reap- 
pointed one  the  other  day. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  members  are  on  the  civil  service  com- 
mission ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Three.  We  have  a  man  by  the  name  of  Steve 
Hurley  who  is  the  chairuian  of  it.  I  believe  you  know  him,  General 
Elliott. 

Mr.  Elliott.  No. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Former  president  of  the  Chicago  Bar  Association. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Quite  a  fellow.  When  we  took  office  there  were 
literally  thousands  of  temporary  employees.  They  are  now  85  per- 
cent civil  service.  Examinations  have  been  held  and  temporary  ap- 
l^ointments  have  been  taken  off  the  roll. 

The  Chairman.  I  have  also  seen  it  stated  that  on  the  theoretical 
ratio  of  the  number  of  police  that  you  should  have  for  population,  the 
Chicago  police  force  was  considerably  understaffed,  that  your  ap- 
propriation wasn't  sufficient. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  I  think  theoretically  it  is  recommended  that  you 
have  one  police  officer  for  every  600  population,  is  that  correct?  Mr. 
Devereux,  is  that  what  it  is  ? 

Mr.  Devereux.  I  am  sorry.  Senator,  I  don't  recall. 

Tlie  Chairman.  It  is  somewhat  less  in  Chicago. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  think  so.  They  are  not  only  understaffed 
hut  underpaid.  I  think  w^e  rank  about  ninth  or  tenth  of  the  big  cities 
in  salaries  paid  to  policemen.  We  pay  for  patrolman  I  think  $3,480 
a  year  and  New  York  pays  $4,100. 

Is  that  right,  Mr.  Devereux,  about  that  figure? 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  are  right.     It  is  about  1  for  every  600  population. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  how  Chicago  runs?  You  have  less 
than  the  suggested  ratio  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  don't  have  the  figure.  We  will  get  that  for 
vou.  I  have  been  trying  for  3  years  to  do  something  about  the  salaries 
'of  policemen.  We  have  to  go  to  Springfield,  the  capital  of  the  State, 
for  financial  relief  and  because  of  politics  or  some  other  reason  we 
haven't  been  able  to  get  any  relief  in  our  program. 

The  Chairman.  You  mean  your  budget  has  to  be  passed  on  by  the 
legislature? 


OEGANIZED    CRIME.   IN    I^^TERSTATE    COMMERCE  125 

Mayor  Kennelly.  No.  The  taxing  power  in  the  city  has  to  be — we 
are  operated  on  an  old  rate  of  5  years  ago,  and  of  course  the  costs 
have  gone  up.  I  pointed  this  out  to  the  members  of  the  legislature. 
I  went  down  to  the  special  session  they  had  here  this  year,  I  spent 
about  3  Aveeks  down  there  trying  to  get  some  relief.  I  pointed  out 
to  the  members  of  the  legislature  that  New  York  spends  on  the  police 
department  of  New  York  City  about  $98,000,000.  We  spend  about 
$28,000,000.  We  have  big  racial  problems  here,  where  we  have 
threatened  conflicts  between  the  races.  In  one  instance  we  had  500 
policemen  who  had  to  be  taken  from  the  stations.  That  is  the  kind 
of  situation  tliat  taxes  our  police  force  overnight,  such  as  a  threatened 
riot  on  the  South  Side.  The  police  commissioner  had  to  draw  in 
police,  leaving  the  districts  unmanned.  I  suppose  the  crooks  proba- 
bly know  about  it.  If  they  hear  about  a  race  riot,  they  think  this  is  a 
good  time  to  get  to  work  in  the  other  districts. 

We  are  making  progress  in  those  things.  I  am  not  satisfied  with 
a  good  many  of  the  police  captains.  I  am  not  running  the  kind  of 
administration  that  will  permit  anyone,  be  he  a  police  captain  or  poli- 
tician or  lawyer  or  anyone  else,  to  make  money  out  of  the  city  gov- 
ernment that  isn't  proper  compensation.  I  am  opposed  to  it,  and 
unalterably  opposed  to  it.  Wlien  I  was  selected  by  the  Democratic 
organization,  by  some  reference  to  the  Democratic  organization,  being 
here  some  20  years,  I  told  the  Democratic  organization  the  basis  on 
which  I  would  accept  their  support,  first  that  I  would  run  the  job, 
that  while  I  was  a  Democrat  I  didn't  believe  in  the  policy  that  be- 
cause I  was  a  Democrat,  the  Democratic  organization  would  run  the 
government,  and  we  followed  that  out. 

The  Chairman.  In  that  connection,  what  if  any  effort  has  there 
been  on  behalf  of  the  Democratic  organization  or  any  other  organ- 
ization to  exert  any  influence  ? 

Ma^^or  Kexxellt.  Not  recently. 

The  Chaieman.  I  understood  that  one  difficulty  in  Chicago,  at  least 
in  the  past,  has  been  that  there  were  ward  committeemen  in  the  various 
wards  that  had  great  influence,  political  influence,  and  maybe  the 
policeman  who  was  in  that  ward  looked  more  to  the  ward  committee- 
man and  was  willing  to  abide  by  the  judgment  of  the  ward  committee- 
man as  to  what  should  go  on  in  that  precinct  than  maybe  he  was  with 
the  police  department  as  such,  and  that  that  was  the  cause  of  some 
sections  of  the  city  having  lax  law  enforcement. 

Mayor  Kenmelly.  That  may  have  been  the  way  it  was  run.  I  think 
Collier's  article  which  was  out  recently  paid  us  a  compliment.  I  don't 
know  whether  they  meant  to  do  it  or  not.  They  said  that  that  system 
was  no  longer  in  existence  here,  that  the  police  captain  was  the  boss 
of  the  district.  Well,  at  least  we  have  cut  one  factor  out  of  the  busi- 
ness of  crime.  People  in  politics,  in  my  opinion,  the  ward  committee- 
men, have  no  place  in  the  police  department.  We  can't  do  all  these 
things  overnight.  This  is  an  old,  established  custom  in  American 
politics,  not  only  in  Chicago  but  in  Memphis  and  in  Vermont. 

Senator  Brewster.  Maine.    It  is  synonymous. 

]\layor  Kexnelly.  It  is  Republican,  anyway.  I  didn't  take  this 
position  as  mayor  for  any  purpose  other  than  to  do  a  good  job  for 
this  community. 

The  Chairman.  Certainly  I  have  never  seen  any  personal  insinua- 
tions against  you,  Mayor.    The  most  I  have  ever  seen  I  think  was  in 


126  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

the  Collier's  article  where  it  says  that  so  much  was  going  on  you  had  a 
hard  time  keeping  up  with  everything  that  was  going  on.  I  think  they 
made  that  observation. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Of  course,  we  don't  go  talking  about  these  names 
that  you  mention  here.  I  don't  know  these  names;  Accardo  and  all 
these  names  don't  mean  anything  to  me.  I  say  stop  crime,  stop  gam- 
bling in  Chicago,  and  that  w^ill  affect  those  people.  That  is  the  way 
I  do  it.  They  have  been  talking  about  them  too  long.  We  cut  out 
their  source  of  income.  When  I  became  mayor  you  could  walk  down 
any  street  here  and  find  a  big  gambling  joint. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Air  conditioned. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Air  conditioned,  serving  you  sandwiches  while 
jou  gambled. 

The  Chairman.  Three  and  a  half  years  ago. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Yes ;  and  they  don't  exist  now.  I  challenge  any- 
one to  prove  that  they  exist  or  that  you  can  walk  into  any  one.  Even 
the  crime  commission,  my  good  friend  over  there,  Mr.  Devereux,  in 
his  reports  or  gambling — his  complaints  rather — show  that  85  or  90 
percent  are  what  they  call  sneak  bets  at  this  time. 

The  Chairman.  Mayor  Kennelly,  you  mentioned  the  Chicago  Crime 
Commission,  and  I  was  going  to  ask  about  that.  I  know  there  have 
been  some  differences  of  judgment  between  you  and  ]Mr.  Peterson,  the 
operating  director,  or  maybe  the  officials  of  the  Chicago  Crime  Com- 
mission. In  the  time  that  I  have  been  interested  in  this,  expressing 
my  personal  opinion,  I  have  had  the  feeling  that  the  Chicago  Crime 
Commission  was  a  very  fine  organization,  and  certainly  that  Mr.  Virgil 
Peterson,  while  anyone  might  disagree  with  him,  knows  his  business. 
He  has  been  in  the  business  a  long  time  and  I  think  he  is  a  very  splendid 
man. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  subscribe  to  that. 

The  Chairman.  He  and  the  members  of  his  staff  have  been  a  great 
deal  of  assistance  to  us.  I  felt  that  crime  commissions  generally  in 
cities  did  an  awfully  good  job.  I  wonder  what  is  the  situation  with 
the  Chicago  Crime  Commission. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  can  subscribe  to  all  you  say  about  Mr.  Peterson. 
I  subscribe  to  that  100  percent.  I  like  him;  I  like  the  crime  commis- 
sion. As  a  matter  of  fact.  I  had  been  a  member  of  it  for  a  long  time 
before  I  became  mayor.  I  was  a  member — still  am,  I  believe — of  the 
crime  commission.  They  have  made  a  great  contribution  to  Chicago. 
I  disagree  sometimes  with  their  ways  of  doing  things.  After  all,  the 
mayor  has  to  make  these  decisions  and  not  outsiders,  whether  it  be  the 
crime  commission  or  the  Democratic  county  counsel  committee,  the 
association  of  commerce,  or  anybody  else.  In  the  final  analysis,  it  is 
for  the  mayor  to  make  the  decision.  If  we  have  had  any  disagree- 
ments, it  is  on  that  })oint  alone,  not  on  objectives. 

The  Chairman.  But  their  effort  in  keeping  in  touch  with  the  situa- 
tion  

IVIayor  Kennelly.  Has  been  very  helpful.  Some  months  ago  I  ar- 
ranged for  a  meeting  between  Mr,  Devereux  and  Mr.  Peterson  and  the 
police  department.  Under  this  new  command  that  we  set  up  here  a 
year  ago,  one  of  the  matters  on  the  agenda  was  regular  meetings  of 
the  top  command  to  discuss  crime  in  Chicago — to  bring  in  people 
and  talk  about  it.  I  said  to  Mr.  Wyman  and  his  associates  on  the  crime 
commission,  "Why  don't  you  sit  in  and  work  with  them  and  see  what 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COAIMERCE  127 

you  can  do?  They  have  more  to  do  than  what  you  are  interested  in, 
but  I  think  it  would  be  helpful  to  them  to  set  up  that  kind  of  meet- 
ing— to  bring  them  into  the  family."  AVe  like  them.  They  are  fine 
people.  They  are  top  fellows  there.  Austin  Wyman  and  Guy  Reed 
are  some  of  the  finest  citizens  we  have  around  Chicago. 

The  Chairman.  I  am  glad  to  hear  you  say  their  work  should  be 
encouraged.  I  had  the  feeling  down  in  Miami,  for  instance — Mr.  Dan 
Sullivan  is  visiting  with  us  here  today — that  they  have  done  a  wonder- 
ful job  there.  Down  there  they  didn't  have  the  cooperation  of  the 
sheritf  and  the  city  police  and  what  not.  I  think  in  the  future  there 
will  be  cooperation  there. 

Mr.  Mayor,  I  also  wanted  to  ask.  Do  you  think  it  is  important  that 
we  get  at  the  matter  of  infiltration  of  some  of  these  fellows  like  the 
Fischettis  et  al.  into  legitimate  businesses?     Is  that  a  problem  here? 

^Vlayor  Ken  nelly.  They  say  it  is.  I  wouldn't  have  any  first-hand 
knowledge.  If  anybody  who  is  rated  by  crime  experts  as  a  gangster, 
certainly  all  his  activities  ought  to  be  investigated. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  any  suggestions  about  how  we  can 
get  into  these  matters  ?  For  instance,  it  is  reported  that  the  Fischettis 
own  the  Chez  Paree.     What  about  that? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  happen  to  know  something  about  the  Chez 
Paree.  I  have  been  in  it  a  number  of  times  myself  as  a  visitor.  Prior 
to  my  taking  on  this  job  as  mayor  I  believe  they  had  quite  a  gambling 
room  up  there  which  some  rated  as  one  of  the  best  in  the  country,  if 
you  can  call  gambling  rooms  the  best,  the  best  for  whom  I  woulcbi't 
know.    It  had  quite  a  high  rating.    We  closed  it  up. 

]\Ir.  Boyle.  Since  then  they  sold  it. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  One  night  I  was  invited  to — this  is  off  the  record. 
It  is  not  important  to  the  hearing. 

(Off  the  record.) 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Mayor,  how  are  the  licenses  issued  for  places 
like  the  Chez  Paree? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  It  is  an  amusement  license  issued  by  the  police 
department. 

The  Chairman.  Does  the  police  department  have  a  board  that  passes 
on  them  or  do  they  have  to  meet  any  standards  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  They  have  to  meet  certain  requirements.  I  have 
a  man  in  my  office  who  puts  the  final  O.  K, ;  one  of  my  assistants. 

The  Chairman,  So  that  comes  under  your  jurisdiction. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman,  How  about  wholesale  and  retail  liquor  licenses  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  The  same  way. 

The  Chairman.  Do  the  wholesale  liquor  licenses  come  under  your 
jurisdiction? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes ;  all  licenses  for  liquor. 

The  Chairman.  The  State  has  no  power  in  passing  on  licenses  for 
wholesale  and  retail  liquor  establishments? 

]Mr.  Prendergast.  No. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  am  not  familiar  with  that. 

Mr.'  Boyle.  I  really  don't  know.  How  about  Eardley.  He  should 
know, 

Mr.  Kerner.  There  are  three  different  licenses.  There  is  a  Federal 
license  to  wholesalers. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  just  a  taxpaying  matter. 


128  ORGANIZED    CRIME;   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Kerner.  Yes.  There  is  a  State  license  issued  by  the  State 
liquor-control  board  or  some  such  name. 

The  Chairman.  Where  is  the  character  of  the  applicant  passed  on? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Police  department. 

The  Chairman.  By  the  city  police  department? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  By  the  captain  of  the  district.  He  either  ap- 
proves or  disapproves. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  a  board  to  whom  the  captain  makes  recom- 
mendations ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  It  is  up  to  the  commissioners. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Does  the  State  control  board  pass  one  way  or  an- 
other on  the  worth-whileness  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  know  nothing  about  the  State.  There  is  a 
Government  license  issued. 

The  Chairman.  The  Government  refers  just  to  the  payment  of  the 
tax,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  We  will  get  you  the  information  for  the  record. 

(The  information  furnished  by  Mayor  Kennelly  is  identified  as 
exhibit  No.  21,  and  is  on  file  with  the  committee.) 

The  Chairman.  You  had  some  questions,  Mr.  Robinson. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Along  that  line,  Mr.  Mayor,  is  there  a  thorough 
investigation  made  of  the  applicant  for  such  a  license  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  There  is  supposed  to  be.  I  hope  there  is.  We 
had  a  check  made  sometime  ago  of  a  good  many  women  who  had 
licenses,  that  is,  the  feeling  was  that  there  were  a  good  many  women 
and  that  somewhere  back  of  it  someone  else  owned  the  license,  that 
they  w^ere  just  being  used  as  a  front.  We  had  that  checked.  I  or- 
dered the  counsel  to  check  the  licenses,  some  1,500  or  2,000.  I  think 
we  have  the  file  on  that,  which  might  be  helpful  to  you.  That  always 
disturbed  me,  to  find  w^omen  owning  taverns,  but  that  is  the  way  it  was. 
We  started  to  find  out  whether  they  had  any  connections,  whether  they 
were  representing  anyone.  The  file  of  the  corporation  counsel  on  that 
could  be  made  available  to  you. 

The  Chairman.  We  would  be  very  happy  if  we  could  have  the  op- 
portunity to  see  that. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Surely.  Who  was  it  who  handled  that  in  the 
corporation  counsel's  office? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Mr.  Harrington. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  understand  the  initial  recommendation  is  made 
by  the  precinct  captain. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Not  by  the  precinct  captain.  I  never  heard  of 
that. 

The  Chairman.  I  thought  you  said  the  police  captain. 

]Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes ;  the  police  captain. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  He  checks  whether  they  have  any  criminal 
records  and  so  forth.     It  goes  through  a  regular  system. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  The  application  is  made  in  the  city  collector's 
office,  then  it  is  forwarded  to  the  police  department,  the  health  de- 
partment, building  department,  and  I  believe  the  electrical  depart- 
ment. It  is  passed  on  by  the  district  police  captain,  who  has  a  man 
assigned  to  investigate  applicants  for  licenses.    It  is  returned  to  the 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  129 

captain  and  then  returned  to  our  ofRce  and  then  returned  to  the  city 
collector. 

The  Chairman.  If  the  applicant  has  a  criminal  record  of  any  kind, 
can  he  ^et  a  permit  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No,  sir. 

Mayor  Ken  nelly.  It  is  all  recorded  on  the  application. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  it  been  the  experience  that  the  ward  committee- 
man gets  into  that  picture  at  all  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  wouldn't  say  "Yes"  or  "No"  to  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  ]\Iayor  Kennelly,  would  you  care  to  make  any  com- 
ment on  the  presently  existing — and  I  understand  it  is  a  presently 
existing — narcotics  problem  in  the  city  of  Chicago? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  would  like  to  talk  about  that  because  I  think 
we  are  away  out  in  front  in  the  enforcement  of  those  laws.  About  a 
year  and  a  half  ago  I  read  somewhere  in  one  of  the  papers  or  in  one 
of  the  columns  that  there  was  a  good  deal  of  narcotics  on  the  South 
Side;  that  is,  out  in  the  Negro  district.  I  immediately  called  the 
commissioner  of  police  and  told  him  I  wanted  a  drive  put  on,  and  we 
have  done  that.  I  get  I  think  a  monthly  report  of  the  number  of 
arrests  on  narcotics  violations.  I  said.  '"I  want  to  find  out  what  you 
are  doing  about  it.  Keep  me  currently  informed."  We  get  a  monthly 
report.  We  have  arrested  thousands  of  people  in  connection  with  this 
drive.  We  have  a  record  of  how  the  cases  were  disposed  of  in  court, 
whether  they  were  let  out,  whether  they  were  lined.  Your  narcotics 
man  is  here.  I  saw  liim.  He  is  familiar  with  it.  I  think  as  far  as 
any  other  city  I  think  we  are  far  out  in  front  on  it.  We  recognize  the 
importance  of  it.  We  have  the  records  of  whether  rhey  are  minors, 
whether  they  are  juveniles,  or  .who  they  are.  We  will  give  you  that 
record.    We  will  make  the  record  up  and  send  it  over  to  you. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Do  j^ou  want  that? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  For  how  long  a  period  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  From  a  year  and  a  half  ago. 

The  Chairman.  Show  us  what  the  situation  was  before  and  what 
you  have  done  about  it. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  It  is  pretty  hard  to  show  you  what  it  was  before. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  There  wasn't  much  done  before. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  You  can  base  3'our  thoughts  on  it  from  this  rec- 
ord. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  White,  what  would  it  be  useful  for  as  far  as 
we  are  concerned  ?    You  are  the  expert. 

Mr.  WiiiiT,.  I  think  the  statistics  compiled  by  your  crime-preven- 
tion bureau  along  that  line  might  be  helpful. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  For  Avhat  period  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  mean  the  crime-prevention  bureau  that  was  set  up  ? 

Mr.  White.  Yes.  I  glanced  through  those  yesterday  and  I  think 
there  are  some  interesting  figures  in  there. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  You  mean  the  one  that  the  State's  attorney's 
office  prepared  ? 

Mr.  White.  :Mr.  Boyle's  office. 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  should  get  them  from  the  commissioner's  office. 
Ours  stem  from  the  juvenile  court  originally.    In  a  6-month  period 
thev  had  65  addicts  under  the  age  of  16. 


130  ORGANIZED    CRIME^   lA^   IX.TERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Tlie  Chairman.  Can  we  get  them  from  botli  of  you  ? 

Mr.  EoYLE.  Yes. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Once  an  addict  becomes  an  addict,  what  are  you  going 
to  do  about  it?  Yon  and  I  or  no  one  else  is  going  to  cure  him.  He 
is  going  to  be  an  addict  as  long  as  he  lives.  We  have  Dr.  Ivy,  the  head 
of  our  committee  on  crime  prevention  who  is  familiar  with  this,  and 
he  said  tliat  after  13  years  of  treating  thousands  of  these  addicts  he 
knew  of  only  one  cure.  That  man  has  been  cured  for  only  12  years. 
He  hasn't  used  narcotics  in  12  years.  Once  he  becomes  an  addict  of 
heroin,  morphine  or  cocaine  it  is  a  problem  from  then  until  the  day 
he  dies. 

The  Chairman.  We  would  like  to  have  not  only  your  statistical 
information,  but  any  information  you  can  give  us  as  to  any  rings  or 
alleged  rings  that  are  operating  in  and  out  of  Chicago  in'narcotics. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  My  figures  may  be  wrong  on  this.  We  got  a 
lead  on  some  peddlers,  and  if  my  inemory  is  right  we  arrested  37 
peddlers  one  night,  together  with  the  cooperation  of  the  narcotics 
unit  of  the  Government.    In  one  night  we  had  37  peddlers. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  that  the  committee's  recorcls  can  show  the  com- 
parison, can  you  give  the  committee  the  statistics  on  the  arrests  and 
convictions  for,  say,  the  year  and  a  half  prior  to  the  beginning  of  the 
drive. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Yes. 

Mr,  Boyle.  Frankly,  your  problem  is  in  the  colored  section.  That 
is  the  biggest  narcotics  problem. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  would  like  to  get  this  back  to  the  gambling 
picture.  We  haven't  been  satisfied  with  just  closing  up  establishments 
that  are  out  in  the  open,  that  you  find.  We  have  made  a  drive  on 
the  telephones,  wire  rooms.  I  will  have  the  police  department  make 
up  a  record  of  the  places  we  have  raided  and  the  phones  we  have 
taken  out  from  information  from  the  telephone  company  itself. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  committee  would  like  to  have  that  and  in  addi- 
tion to  that,  all  the  information  on  the  actual  locations  of  drops  that 
you  have. 

The  Chairman.  And  the  names  of  the  people  operating  them  where 
you  have  that. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  The  persons  who  were  arrested. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  Anything  like  that  we  will  include  in  the  re- 
ports and  let  you  have  them. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Robinson  had  a  few  more  questions. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  Mayor,  I  believe  in  your  formal  statement  you 
made  reference  to  a  fact  which  I  am  sure  is  all  too  true,  that  gambling 
IS  abetted  and  encouraged  by  the  bettor.  Would  you  say  there  is  a 
place  among  law-enforcement  ofticials  for  one  who  habitually  gambles? 
Could  he  have  the  right  mental  approach  to  the  enforcement  of  the 
gambling  laws? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  If  he  gambled  himself  ? 

Mr,  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mayor  Kennelly,  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  care  to  make  or  would  the  commissioner 
care  to  make  any  comment  regarding  the  policy  racket  in  Chicago? 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  131 

Mayor  Kexnei>ly.  There  is  a  policy  racket  that  is  very  prevalent 
out  there.  We  drove  it  off  the  streets,  as  one  minister  out  there  said, 
and  drove  it  into  the  alleys. 

Mr.  KoBiNsox.  Is  it  peculiar  to  any  particular  location? 

Mayor  Kexnelly.  The  Negro  districts. 

Mr.  KoBiNsoN.  In  connection  with  the  narcotics  situation  in  the 
colored  district,  has  there  been  any  indication  of  the  sale  of  narcotics 
being  carried  on  by  any  known  Communists^  * 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  don't  have  that  information.  Maybe  we  can 
dig  that  up  for  you  and  give  you  the  names  of  people  that  we  have 
arrested. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  that  ? 

Mr.  pREXDERGRAST.  I  may  say,  with  thousands  of  arrests  that  we 
have  made  out  there — and  I  mean  thousands — the  average  age  I  would 
say  would  be  24  or  25,  including  minors  and  if  my  figures  are  right,  I 
think  in  about  6  months  we  arrested  42  juveniles. 

]\Iayor  Kexnelly.  Will  you  make  a  note  and  see  if  there  is  any  in- 
formation about  Communists  that  we  have^  We  have  a  very  good 
detail  that  has  to  do  with  Communists  in  Chicago.  They  have  the 
records  of  most  of  them,  I  guess,  and  can  tell  you  all  about  them.  It 
is  surprising  the  information  we  have.  I  use  it  very  often.  We  find 
it  in  our  race  relations  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  This  is  probably  a  question  that  might  be  more  ap- 
propriately directed  to  Mr.  Boyle,  but  I  wonder  whether  or  not  there 
is  any  connnent  with  respect  to  the  possible  improvements  in  the  rules 
of  criminal  procedure  in  the  local  courts  here. 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  Chicago  Crime  Commission  has  what  they  call  the 
crime  commission  bills,  and  I  went  down  to  the  legislature  and  argued 
before  the  judiciary  committee  of  the  Senate  and  also  of  the  House. 
We  had  five  bills,  and  they  certainly  would  have  helped  us.  You 
must  understand  that  in  Chicago  as  in  Illinois,  we  are  operating  under 
a  constitution  that  was  passed  in  1870. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  the  same  date  the  Tennessee  Constitution 
got  passed. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Are  you  operating  under  such  constitution  now  ? 

The  Chairmax^.  Ours  has  never  been  amended  since  that  time. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Neither  has  ours.  It  is  practically  the  same  constitu- 
tion we  had  in  1848,  which  was  adopted  in  1870,  and  they  have  never 
been  able  to  amend  it  or  change  it.  Cook  County  is  the  only  county  of 
the  102  counties  in  Illinois  that  has  only  a  30-day  grand  jury,  and  that 
applies  not  only  to  the  regular  grand  jury  that  meets  every  month — 
they  have  a  continuous  grand  jury,  12  grand  juries  in  each  year,  but  no 
grand  jury  can  operate  for  more  than  30  days.  That  applies  also  to  a 
special  grand  jury.  In  other  words  if  a  special  grand  jury  was  ap- 
pointed to  investigate  a  certain  phase  of  crime,  its  life  would  be  only 
30  days,  which  is  practically  about  22  days.  The  crime  commission 
and  other  law  enforcing  agencies,  including  the  mayor  and  the  Gov- 
ernor, tried  to  change  that  so  that  Cook  County  could  get  a  grand 
jury  that  would  operate  6  months,  and  they  were  willing  to  settle  for 
even  3  months,  90  days.  You  can  understand  that  once  an  investiga- 
tion starts,  at  the  end  of  about  20  working  days,  if  that  grand  jury  is 
not  finished,  you  would  have  to  start  all  over  again  with  the  next  grand 
j"ry. 


132  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INiTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman,  And  take  half  the  time  gettiiio;  them  oriented  to 
what  the  previous  grand  jury  said. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Tliat  is  correct.  You  can't  orient  tliem  by  statements  on 
paper.  You  have  to  have  Avitnesses  appear  and  testify.  The  Federal 
grand  jury  can  meet  for  any  length  of  time. 

Mr.  Keener.  Eighteen  months. 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  perjury  bill,  for  instance.  If  a  man  testifies  before 
our  grand  jftry  under  oath  and  says  a  certain  set  of  facts  are  true,  he 
then  goes  into  court  and  testifies  under  oath  directly  opposite  to  what 
he  testified  before  the  grand  jury,  it  is  the  duty  of  the  State's  attorney 
to  prove — the  proof  is  on  the  State's  attorney  to  prove  which  statement 
is  true.  The  mere  fact  that  they  are  directly  opposite  doesn't  convict 
him.  We  must  prove  which  one  is  true  when  we  take  him  to  trial. 
That  is  another  bill  we  tried  to  change. 

The  crime  commission  tried  to  change  the  alibi  bill.  We  tried  to 
help  them  all  we  could.  The  alibi  bill  is  that  within  a  certain  number 
of  days  before  trial,  if  a  defendant  is  going  to  produce  an  alibi  he  must 
notify  the  State's  attorney  in  writing  so  he  can  check  to  see  whether 
that  alibi  is  true  or  false. 

Another  one  was  a  public  office  holder  or  any  public  emplovee  who 
refuses  to  testify  before  a  grand  jury  or  before  any  judicial  proceeding 
on  the  ground  that  he  might  tend  "to  incriminate  himself,  if  he  says 
that,  then  he  forfeits  his  office. 

What  was  the  fifth  one,  Devereux  ? 

Mr.  Devereux.  Immunity. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Imnumity,  yes.  We  had  a  case  before  I  became  State's 
attorney  that  was  known  as  the  Smokie  case  in  which  this  fellow  Vogel, 
who  is  supposed  to  have  the  slot  machines,  his  brother  was  involved. 
There  were  saloon  keepers  or  tavern  owners  who  made  statements  that 
they  Avere  forced  to  take  these  slot  machines.  The  case  went  to  trial. 
These  30  tavern  owners  refused  to  testify  on  the  grounds  they  would 
tend  to  incriminate  themselves,  even  though  they  weren't  indicted  and 
no  warrant  was  issued  against  them  or  anything  else.  Of  course,  the 
court  sustained  their  right  to  refuse  to  testify  on  the  ground  that  they 
might  tend  to  incriminate  themselves.  The  law  that  the  crime  com- 
mission was  trying  to  pass  was  that  the  court  could  turn  to  the  wit- 
ness and  say,  "I  grant  you  immunity  in  this  particular  case."  The 
court  would  have  the  right  to  grant  them  immunity  and  then  they 
would  have  to  testify.  But  every  one  of  those  bills  was  defeated. 
They  were  fought  and  really  fought  down  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  the  bar  association  approve  them? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes,  and  the  State's  attorneys  association  of  which  I  am 
a  member,  that  is,  all  the  State's  attorneys,  approved  them. 

Mv.  Halley.  Who  fought  them  in  the  legislature  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Certain  members  of  the  State  legislature,  a  bloc. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wlio  would  you  say  was  the  leadership  of  that  op- 
position ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  would  sa}^  that  Jimmie  Adduci,  Petrone — you  know 
them,  Devereux. 

Mr.  Devereux.  Libonati,  Adduci,  and  Petrone  are  what  we  call  here 
locally  the  West  Side  Italian  bloc. 

Mr.  Halley.  Could  they  alone  do  it? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Frankly,  we  feel  that  they  made  a  deal  with  some  repre- 
sentatives down  State  for  other  legislation  so  that  they  would  buck 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  133 

these  bills  with  them.  Tliere  was  only  one  bill  that  got  out  of  com- 
mittee, wasn't  there,  the  grand  jury  bill. 

Mr.  Devereux.  The  grand  jury  bill  was  reported  out. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Reported  out  and  beaten.  We  have  the  biggest  county 
in  the  United  States  here  in  Cook  County.  We  have  nearly  5,000,000 
people  here.  We  are  operating  under  an  1818  constitution  instead 
of  an  1870  constitution.  It  is  100  j^ears  old.  You  asked  me  why 
we  didn't  bring  in  these  fellows  and  say,  What  are  you  doing  now? 
They  won't  answer.  They  will  give  you  their  name  and  address  and 
won't  tell  you  anj-thing  else.  Under  our  rules  and  under  our  rules  of 
procedure  that  is  all  they  have  to  tell  us.  No  man  has  to  give  testimony 
against  himself. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  deal  did  they  make  in  the  legislature  so  far  as 
you  know? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Devereux  was  down  there,  weren't  you? 

Mr.  De-\^reux.  No;  I  wasn't  down  there. 

The  Chairman.  ]\Ir.  Devereux,  move  up  here  and  join  the  group. 
We  will  swear  you.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give 
this  committee  will  be  the  whole  truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so 
help  3'ou  God? 

]SIr.  Devereux.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Boyle.  As  State's  attorney  of  Cook  County  I  have  to  try  cases 
on  the  law  and  evidence.  I  also  took  an  oath  to  uphold  the  Constitu- 
tion of  the  United  States  and  the  State  of  Illinois  and  that  isn't  any 
idle  oath.  I  have  to  do  it.  I  can't  try  people  on  their  re])utations. 
I  did  that  once  when  I  was  an  assistant.  I  tried  a  bunch  of  fellows  on 
their  reputations,  convicted  them  with  juries,  and  went  to  the  supreme 
court  and  they  were  reversed — Jack  Packburn,  Bill  Casto,  Louis  Al- 
teri,  and  Maxie  Isen.  It  went  on  for  about  6  or  7  months.  They  were 
the  so-called  members  at  that  time.  Gus  Winkler.  I  guess  they  are  all 
dead,  they  have  all  been  murdered.  Only  one  of  them  died  a  natural 
death..  We  tried  them  on  their  reputations.  It  is  a  little  far-fetched 
when  you  look  back  on  it.  We  had  police  officers  come  in  and  testify 
that  the}^  were  reputed  to  carry  guns,  had  a  bad  reputation  in  the  com- 
munity in  which  they  lived.  They  were  reputed  to  be  gangsters.  The 
juries  went  out  and  convicted  them  in  10  or  15  minutes,  but  the  con- 
victions didn't  stand.  As  w^e  look  back  on  it  now,  we  have  the  civil 
rights  groups,  the  civil  liberties  groups  and  everybody  else  tearing  our 
heads  oil'  today,  and  they  weren't  in  existence  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  very  important  in  trying  to  pin  down  the  re- 
sponsibility for  the  defeat  of  these  criminal  procedural  bills  that  the 
committee  know  exactly  who  spearheaded  the  thing,  and  in  that  con- 
nection I  think  it  is  important  that  we  know  with  whom  they  made  a 
deal  and  what  kind  of  deal  they  made,  if  you  know  it. 

Mr.  Boyle.  This  fellow.  Reed  Cutler,  from  down  State  gave  us  a  bad 
time  before  the  committee.  What  is  this  fellow's  name  in  Rock  Island, 
the  little  representative  ? 

Mr.  Devereux.  I  have  forgotten  his  name.  I  would  suggest  to  the 
committee  that  the  best  informed  man  on  this  is  Fred  Pretzie,  admin- 
istrative assistant  to  Mr.  Peterson,  who  attended  every  session  of  the 
legislature  2  years  ago,  and  is  the  active  man  in  the  commission  in  at- 
tempting to  line  up  our  commission  forces  to  introduce  two  bills  at 
the  forthcoming  legislature  next  January.  We  have  cut  down  the  five 
bills  to  two  on  the  chance  that  maybe  we  can  get  those  swung. 


134  ORGAMZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  While  we  are  on  this,  Mr.  Robinson,  will  you  place 
the  gentleman  you  talked  about  under  subpena.    What  is  his  name? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Mr.  Pretzie  will  come  over  this  afternoon. 

The  Chairman.  Let's  get  him  over. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  there  any  opi^osition  to  these  bills  on  what  you 
might  say  their  merits,  on  reasonable  grounds,  that  was  raised  at  the 
time  of  their  committee  consideration  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  point  that  was  raised  was  that  you  were  depriving 
people  of  the  rights  they  had  under  the  constitution  and  the  laws  of 
the  State  of  Illinois,  that  you  were  depriving  the  defendant  of  a 
fair  trial  in  a  courtroom.  They  qnestioned  the  constitutionality  of 
several  of  these  things. 

The  Chairman.  You  didn't  believe  that  was  the  actual  reason  for 
their  opposition,  did  you? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  I  did  not.  I  think  some  of  them  were  honest  in 
their  opposition.    There  were  some  good  lawyers  in  the  legislature. 

Mr.  Devereux.  There  were  a  lot  oi  good  arguments  on  the  alibi  bill. 

Mr.  Boyle.  A  defendant  doesn't  have  to  testify  at  all  in  a  criminal 
case.  They  claim  why  would  we  have  to  come  in  and  say  I  am  going 
to  give  you  an  alibi.  Some  of  them  were  sincere  in  their  arguments 
against  the  bill. 

The  Chairman.  We  may  have  some  substantial  evidence,  and  I 
think  we  will  try  to  make  some  inquiry  along  that  line,  but  we  cer- 
tainly would  appreciate  any  information  you  can  give  us  as  to  any  of 
the  so-called  gangster  element  influencing  any  of  these  legislators  or 
associations  that  might  have  influenced  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  it  true  that  one  of  the  legislators  Avho  was 
violently  opposed  to  the  bill  had  a  criminal  record  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Criminal  record? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Boyle.  A  member  of  the  legislature  ? 

Mr.  Devereux.  Yes,  one  of  them  has  a  record.  I  have  forgotten, 
he  is  one  of  the  West  Side  Italian  group,  Adduci  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.  Under  the  Vagrancy  Act.  I  tried  him  before 
a  jury.  That  was  before  he  w^as  a  State  representative,  but  he  wasn't 
convicted. 

The  Chairman.  I  know  Mayor  Kennelly  is  terribly  busy.  Would 
you  like  for  us  to  finish  with  you  ? 

Mayor  Kennelly.  No.  Go  ahead.  I  was  to  go  to  Washington,  but 
I  canceled  that. 

(Off  the  record.) 

The  Chairman.  Mayor  Kennelly,  you  have  followed  up  this  matter 
a  good  deal  and  all  of  you  gentlemen  have.  Will  you  now  and  at  a 
later  time  after  you  have  given  the  matter  more  thought  and  study, 
give  us  your  recommendations  as  to  what  if  any  Federal  laws  you 
think  might  be  strengthened  that  would  help  you  with  your  local 
law  enforcement  problems?  Any  Federal  laws  that  you  think  might 
be  passed.  To  draw  out  your  thinking  on  the  matter,  in  our  interim 
report  on  Florida,  we  list  some  of  the  recommendations  that  we  are 
considering.  I  don't  mean  that  we  have  agreed  on  these  at  all.  They 
are  just  being  considered. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  What  are  you  trying  to  accomplish,  Senator? 

The  Chairman.  I  will  give  you  this. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    CIOMMER'CE  135 

Mayor  Kexnelly.  I  believe  you  sent  me  a  copy  of  this. 

Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Let's  see  that  copies  get  to  all  these  gentlemen. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  What  are  you  trying  to  accomplish?  What  is 
the  purpose  of  the  investigation?  Are  you  trying  to  eliminate 
gambling  as  such  ?  Are  3'ou  tr^'ing  to  eliminate  people  from  control- 
ling gambling,  certain  people,  people  with  criminal  records?  Just 
what  are  we  trying  to  accomplish? 

The  Chairman.  I  am  glad  you  have  asked  the  question,  and  we 
should  have  said  something  about  it  while  the  boys  of  the  press  were 
here.  AVe  are  not  naive  enough  to  believe  that  any  group  or  anybody 
can  stop  gambling.  What  we  hope  to  help  do  is  to  throw  blocks  in 
the  way  of  the  interstate  ramifications  and  the  operation  of  it  across 
State  lines  so  that  it  might  be  reduced  to  a  local  problem  where  you 
could  cope  with  the  matter  better.  We  find  generally  that  the  heart  of 
the  thing,  the  arteries  of  it,  are  through  the  wire  service.  At  most  of 
the  places  we  have  been  the  distribution  and  the  subdistribution  of  the 
wire  service  is  used  as  the  nucleus  for  gambling  activity,  and  around 
these  distributors  are  a  bunch  of  hoodlums  and  racketeers  in  a  great 
many  instances  which  very  adversely  affects  the  local  law-enforce- 
ment problem.  If  in  any  proper  way,  without  impinging  on  the  right- 
ful jurisdiction  of  the  local  communities,  we  can  cut  out  and-  block 
some  of  the  interstate  communications  aspects  of  it,  in  that  way, 
by  the  transportation  of  slot  machines  or  by  being  certain  that  these 
people  are  taxed  and  taxed  to  the  limit  and  that  they  pay  their  taxes 
through  the  income-tax  laws,  then  that  is  what  we  are  interested  in. 

Of  course,  that  refers  only  to  the  gambling  part.  We  also  are 
examining  all  of  our  Federal  statutes,  our  postal  statutes,  the  mail- 
fraud  statutes,  the  narcotics  laws,  and  all  other  Federal  laws  to  see 
what  we  can  do  to  strengthen  them.  A  whole  lot  of  this  is  carried 
on  through  the  mails  at  the  present  time.  I  don't  know  what  the  situa- 
tion here  is,  but  in  St.  Louis,  for  instance,  we  found  that  one  outfit  had 
mail  connections  with  Western  L^nion  operators  in  19  or  20  States, 
I  believe,  wdiere  they  were  their  local  agents  for  the  purpose  of  making 
book  and  then  communicating  back  and  forth  oif  the  Western  Union 
lines  and  then  clearing  through  the  mail.  Mayor  Morrison,  as  you 
know,  and  the  American  Municipal  Association,  felt  that  by  the 
strength  of  their  wealth  and  their  connections  through  the  country 
they  were  able  to  exert  influences  and  to  operate  in  such  a  way  that 
in  some  cases  it  was  almost  beyond  the  ability  of  local  communities  to 
cope  with  them.  If  you  remember,  the  American  ^lunicipal  Associa- 
tion and  the  Mayors'  Conference  passed  a  resolution  asking  that  the 
matter  be  gone  i}ito. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  You  certainly  are  tackling  a  big  job. 
The  Chairman.  We  have  found  that  out. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  We  have  been  working  at  this  day  in  and  day 
out.  I  talk  to  the  police  department  every  morning,  and  maybe  two 
or  three  times  a  day,  trying  to  do  something  about  crime,  and  trying 
to  do  something  about  gambling  particularly,  because  it  burns  me  up 
to  find  that  these  operations  go  on  and  are  protected. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  read  into  the  record  now,  lie- 
cause  I  think  it  is  pertinent,  conclusion  No.  7  in  the  interim  report 
filed  by  the  committee.     The  committee  has  seven  conclusions  of  a 


136  ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN   INiTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

general  iiatiire  and  then  referred  specifically  to  the  Miami  investiga- 
tion. No.  T  was  tlie  final  conclusion  of  the  general  conclusions.  ^It 
i"eads  as  follows: 

It  is  essential  that  the  true  nature  of  the  evil  be  recognized.  The  question 
is  not  whether  gambling  or  any  other  form  of  illegal  activity  is  morally  good  or 
bad.  It  is.  rather,  that  we  must  weigh  the  full  evil  effects  upon  'the  body 
politic  of  permitting  powerful  groups  of  criminals  to  utilize  the  channels  of 
interstate  commerce  for  the  purpose  of  controlling  illegal  enterpi-ises  when  it  is 
clear  that  these  groups  now  obtain  and  always  have  secured  their  power  by  (1) 
using  violence  and  intimidation:  (2)  attempting  to  corrupt  and  control" local 
government;  (.3)  obtaining  overbearing  economic  power  by  amassing  great 
wealth  through  nonpayment  of  taxes  and  by  means  of  monopoly. 

I  think  the  specific  things  the  chairman  has  mentioned  have  been 
the  si^ecific  manifestations  summed  up  in  this  general  conclusion. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Robinson,  do  you  have  any  more  questions  of 
the  mayor? 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  No  further  questions. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  I  have  always  thought  it  strange  that  the  tele- 
phone company  could  or  would  put  phones  into  gambling  houses, 
whether  they  wouldn't  have  some  discretional^  power  to  say  whether 
that  was  a  proper  place,  or  whether  the  number  of  phones  going  in 
was  proper.  I  know  in  one  raid  they  made  there  were  30  phones  over 
here  in  one  of  the  office  buildings.  There  was  no  way  in  the  world 
to  find  it.  We  just  happened  to  get  it  through  some  undercover  man 
who  brought  it  in.  I  have  often  wondered  why  that  would  be  per- 
mitted, whether  the  telephone  company  hadn't  some  obligation,  too,  in 
getting  this  information  around. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  quite  right,  and  particularly  during  time 
of  war,  when  telephones  were  very  difficult  to  get,  we  found  in  some 
places  the  bookies  had  no  trouble  getting  banks  of  telephones. 

Mayor  Kennelly.  The  telephone  company  does  cooperate  with  us 
when  they  find  these  places. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  We  do  report  them  to  the  telephone  company 
Mr.  Boyle.  There  are  about  13,000  phones. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  think  there  were  over  2,000  in  Chicago  alone. 
Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  over  a  period  of  some  time.  Their  attitude  is 
that  they  are  a  public-service  company,  and  anybody  who  applies  for 
a  telephone  they  should  give  it  to  them  until*  they  learn  later  that 
they  are  in  the  gambling  business  and  then  they  takeit  out.  They  wait 
until  somebody  complains. 
(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

The  Chairman.  Attorney  General  Elliott's  statement  to  the  com- 
mittee of  July  11,  1950,  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record  at  this 
point. 

(Statement  of  Ivan  A.  Elliott,  attorney  general.  State  of  Illinois,  is 
identified  as  exhibit  No.  22,  and  is  on  file\vith  the  committee.) 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  stand  in  recess  until  2 :  15  p.  m. 
(Whereupon,  at  1  p.  m.  the  committee  recessed  until  2:15  p.  m.' 
the  same  day.) 

afterncon  session 

(The  committee  reconvened  at  2  :  20  p.  m.  pursuant  to  the  taking  of 
the  noon  recess. ) 

The  Chairman.  Gentleman,  we  have  decided  that  we  probably  will 
make  better  progress  if  we  keep  one  witness  at  a  time  and  'finish 


ORGANIZED    CRIME«   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  137 

with  liis  testimony  and  then  carry  on  from  thei'e.  So,  we  are  going 
to  start  with  you,  Chief  Prendergast. 

I  will  have  to  ask  everybody  else  to  wait  outside  until  you  are  called 
except  Federal  officials. 

Mr.  Halley,  do  3^ou  or  Mr.  Robinson  have  anything  else  to  ask  Chief 
Prendergast  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  I  think  we  will  ask  Mr.  Robinson  to  go  ahead.  Are 
there  any  other  specihc  points  at  this  time  ? 

FURTHER  TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  C.  PRENDERGAST,  COMMISSIONER 
OF  POLICE,  CHICAGO,  ILL. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  1  have  a  few  questions  I  would  like  to  ask  you,  Com- 
missioner.    Maybe  some  of  them  were  touched  on. 

Do  you  have  any  system  of  investigating  your  police  officers? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  1  have  a  department  inspector,  we  call  him. 
This  is  not  in  the  way  of  an  alibi.  Prior  to  the  reorganization  I  had 
none,  ])ractically.     Now  1  have  two  assistants. 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  I  think  it  might  be  helpful  if  you  could  give  a  very 
brief  sketch  of  what  the  organization  of  j^our  police  department  is. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  My  organization  today  consists  of  the  commis- 
sioner, of  course,  two  deputy  commissioners,  one  in  charge  of  staff 
services  and  one  in  charge  of  field  services.  The  man  in  charge  of 
staff  services,  of  course,  takes  care  of  the  office  routine.  The  man 
in  charge  of  the  field  services  has  charge  of  the  detective  bureau, 
the  district  stations,  and  the  uniform  branches  of  the  department, 
and  traffic.  Under  him  there  are  deputies.  There  is  a  chief  of  the 
traffic  and  a  chief  of  detectives  and  the  chief  of  the  uniform  force.  If 
you  want  a  breakdown,  I  will  have  it  laid  out  for  you  in  a  regular 
graph. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  a  graph  or  chart  that  we  could  have  ^ 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  have  that  and  we  will  put  it  in  the  record 
as  an  exhibit  to  the  commissioner's  testimony. 

(The  chart  referred  to  is  identified  as  exhibit  Xo.  '2'S,  and  appears 
in  the  appendix  facing  p.  1380.) 

Mr.  RdBiNsoN.  Do  you  have  any  particular  precincts  that  you  clas- 
sify as  ihe  worse  precincts  so  far  as  crime  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Of  course,  the  Loop  district,  I  would  say,  and 
the  twenty-sixth  district  and  the  thirty-fifth  district.  The  Loop 
district  takes  in  the  entire  Loop  to  Twenty-second  Street  and  the  Lake 
to  the  river.  The  thirty-fifth  district  is  north  of  the  river.  The 
boundaries  of  that  district  are  from  the  river  to  Division  Street  and 
from  the  Lake  to  the  river.  And  the  twenty-sixth  district  is  west 
of  the  river.  In  fact,  my  river  wards — and  I  may  say  two  or  three  of 
my  South  Side  districts — the  third,  fourth,  and  fifth — there  is  more 
crime  in  the  fifth  district  than  any  other  four  districts  in  Chicago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  the  police  captains  been  in  those 
particular  districts  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Offhand,  I  don't  know.  The  captain  of  the 
twenty-sixth  district,  I  would  say,  was  in  there  for  maybe  a  year  and 
a  half.     The  captain  of  the  thirty-fifth  district  was  transferred  out  of 

68958 — 51 — pt.  5—^10 


138  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INiTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

there,  and  I  transferred  him  back  hiter  on.    The  captain  of  the  first 

district  has  been  there  for  several  years, 

.  Mr.  RoHiNSON.  Was  there  any  particular  reason  for  the  transfer? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  No.  As  a  young-  patrolman,  I  worked  in  the 
thirty-fiftli  district,  and  I  would  say  it  is  a  district  where  you  have  to 
be  a  two-fisted  fellow.  When  you  leave  the  station  you  never  know 
Avhether  you  are  going  to  run  into  an  argument  or  not.  That  was  the 
reason  I  assigned  them  back  there.  Captain  Brodie  is  in  charge  of 
the  first  district  and  Captain  Hartford  of  the  twenty-sixth  district. 
Captain  Harrison 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  is  the  Captain  Harrison  who  was  removed  at 
one  time  from  the  force  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes.  He  was  discharged  and  later  on  reinstated, 
along  with  several  other  captains.    That  was  back  several  years  ago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  there  been  any  investigation  made  with  respect 
to  Captain  Harrison  so  far  as  his  accumulation  of  wealth  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  don't  know  what  Captain  Harrison  has. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No ;  I  do  not.  I  have  access  to  the  files,  of  course, 
to  show  how  much  these  captains  have. 

The  Chairman.  What  does  it  do  to  the  morale?  Do  you  make 
charges  before  the  civil-service  commission  and  then  they  are  dis- 
charged, and  they  appeal  it  and  come  back?  Do  you  lose  your  effec- 
tiveness over  them?  What  does  that  do  to  the  morale  of  the  organ- 
ization? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  think  the  greater  number  of  captains  that  would 
be  discharged — I  think  they  would  be  more  careful  in  the  future. 
That  would  be  my  impression. 

The  Chairman.  I  just  wondered  whether  they  would  say,  "Oh,  it 
doesn't  make  much  difference  about  the  commissioner.  If  he  dis- 
charges us  we  will  just  appeal  it." 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  don't  know  whether  any  of  these  captains  have 
$5  or  $5,000,000.     There  is  no  way  I  can  find  out. 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  important  for  you  to  know  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  love  to  know\ 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  there  any  way  that  you  can  find  out  information 
in  that  respect  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  The  statistics  that  I  mentioned.  You  will  find 
some  of  them  here  before  you  get  through.     They  don't  talk. 

Mr.  Halley.  Some  of  these  fellows  have  obvious  wealth. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes ;  they  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  there  no  way  you  can  check  up  on  their  homes  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  don't  believe  those  homes  were  purchased  dur- 
ing my  time  as  commissioner. 

Mr.  Halley.  Of  course,  but  they  have  them  now. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  They  have  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  are  the  people  that  you  know  of  your  own  knoAvl- 
edge  who  live  well  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  know  one  has  a  beautiful  home.  There  are 
captains  in  my  department.     I  don't  associate  with  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  Commissioner,  you  have  the  reputation  of  being  a 
completely  honest  and  hard-hitting  law  enforcement  officer.  You 
have  lived  in  this  city  all  your  life,  and  you  know  the  story.     Who  are 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  139 

the  men  with  the  rank  of,  say,  lieutenant  and  higher  in  yonr  force  who 
must,  from  just  mere  observation,  have  other  means  of  support  than 
their  salarj^  ^ 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  can  honestly  tell  you  I  don't  know.  I  don't 
know  their  private  lives.     I  don't  know  where  five  of  them  live. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  mentioned  one.     Aren't  there  some  others? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  have  a  beautiful  home,  but  it  didn't  cost  me 
much.  I  paid  $11,500  for  it.  The  other  day  I  refused  $45,000  for  it. 
I  have  a  beautiful  home. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  I  don't  think  it  is  probably  your  province  to  pry  into 
the  private  lives  of  the  men  working  for  you,  but  it  seems  to  me  there 
should  be  some  way  that  you  can  check  to  some  extent  on  their  accumu- 
lation of  wealth  that  would  seems  to  be  a  little  bit  inconsistent  with  the 
salary  they  receive  as  a  police  captain. 

Mr.  Prex'dergast,  I  am  not  avoiding  any  responsibility.  I  don't 
want  to  avoid  any  responsibility.  But  up  to  the  time  of  this  reorgani- 
zation I  had  the  entire  police  department  on  my  shoulders.  When  I 
got  assistants,  I  immediately  put  them  to  work. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  about  this  fellow  Goldberg  ?  Does  he  appear  to 
have  wealth  '^ 

Mr.  Prendergast.  As  far  as  I  know,  Goldberg  lives  in  a  hotel  up  on 
the  North  Side.  He  owns  some  property  in  Arizona,  is  that  it?  In 
Arizona.  What  he  owns  out  there  I  don't  know.  AVhen  he  got  it  I 
don't  know.  It  seems  to  me  that  he  got  that  piece  of  property  many 
years  ago.  I  don't  know  just  when  he  purchased  it.  He  was  out  there 
about  a  month  and  a  half  ago  or  a  month  ago. 

But  I  don't  know  anything  about  Arizona.  I  don't  know  anything 
about  Arizona  property. 

Mr.  Robinson;  What  precinct  does  he  have  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  He  is  at  the  thirty-seventh  precinct. 

Mr.  RoBiN^soN.  Is  that  one  of  those  you  consider  to  be 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No,  no.  His  district  is  changing.  It  is  getting 
to  be  more  of  a  hotel  district.  It  has  changed  in  the  last  7  or  8  or  10 
years. 

Mr.  RoBiNSOx".  Do  j^ou  have  any  problem  so  far  as  interference  with 
the  police  precinct  captains'  activities  with  respect  to  the  ward  com- 
mitteemen ? 

Mr.  Prex'dergast.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  they  attempt  to  exert  any  particular  pressure  on 
you  insofar  as  the  appointment  of  people  to  a  particular  precinct  or 
ward  ? 

Mr.  Prex^dergast.  No.  sir.  I  was  appointed  commissioner  under 
a  former  mayor,  and  I  told  him  at  that  time,  "I  will  take  the  position 
as  commissioner  provided  you  let  me  run  it,  because  there  is  a  lot  of 
work  to  be  done.''  I  think  we  have  made  vast  improvements.  In 
fact,  I  know  we  have. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Here  is  another  point  I  would  like  to  discuss  with 
you,  Commissioner.  I  think  the  mayor  touched  on  it  in  his  statement. 
What  is  the  extent  of  your  police  training? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  We  have  an  extensive  training  course.  Before  I 
took  over — do  you  want  to  take  this  off  the  record  for  a  moment. 

(Off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Prex-^dergast.  It  always  has  been  my  pet  to  bring  policemen  up 
to  standard  by  presenting  an  educational  program  to  them.     Prior  to 


140  ORGANIZED    CRIMD   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

my  takino;  over,  no  captain,  no  lieutenant,  no  sergeant  was  ever  given 
a  departmental  education,  and  I  immediately  started  in,  and  some  of 
the  newspapers  criticized  me  because  I  took  the  captain  out  on  the 
floor  in  a  drill  hall  and  I  put  him  through  his  drills.  These  captains 
didn't  know  the  connnands.  They  didn't  know  how  to  handle  a  com- 
pany. So  from  that  day  on,  we  have  had  a  continuous  training  pro- 
gram in  the  ]jolice  department. 

Mr.  I\OBiNsox.  You  conduct  a  regular  training  school  *. 

Mr.  PRENDEi'.GAST.  A  regular  training  school.  It  is  not  conducted 
entirely  by  the  police  department.  We  call  for  outside  aid  and  as- 
sistance to  present  different  subjects  to  the  policemen.  I  have  a 
laboratory  clown  there,  and  I  consider  it  the  Jbest  laboratory  in  the 
\^'orld.  That  is  really  my  pet.  Police  officials  tliroughout  the  coun- 
try and  throughout  the  world  drop  in  to  Chicago  and  say  it  is  the 
greatest  laboratory  in  the  world.  When  I  took  over  there  were  300 
cases  lying  on  the  floors  up  there,  no  reports  on  them.  I  called  the 
man  in  charge.  We  had  the  300  cases  cleaned  up,  and  in  about  45 
days  I  made  another  check  and  learned  that  he  had  21)  or  30  cases. 
Now  you  get  a  report  from  my  laboratory  in  half  an  hour, 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  number  of  policemen  are  sent  from  Chicago 
to  the  Federal  Bureau  Academy  'I 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Prior  to  ni}'  taking  over  we  had  two  men  at  the 
FBI  school  in  Washington,  and  I  have  had  a  man  at  every  session.  In 
fact,  the  other  day  I  received  a  message  that  the  Federal  Bureau  of 
Investigation  Avants  to  take  over  my  last  candidate  that  I  liad  there. 
They  want  him  to  join  up  with  their  forces,  but  I  am  not  going  to  let 
him  go.  He  is  too  valuable  to  me.  When  these  men  returned,  prior 
to  my  taking  over,  they  were  sent  to  districts.  The  time,  the  money 
and  the  energy  that  were  spent  were  just  closeted  among  themselves. 
I  have  taken  my  men  w'ho  have  finished  the  FBI  school  and  sent  them 
immediately  into  my  training  division. 

Mr.  Robinson.  To  what  extent  do  you  have  liaison  with  other  police 
departments  of  other  large  cities  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Just  through  correspondence,  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  there  no  exchange  of  information? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Very  seldom.  That  is,  they  come  into  Chicago 
on  trips  for  information. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  keep  track  in  any  way  of  these  well-known 
hoodlums,  when  they  depart  from  Chicago  and  go  somewhere  else^ 
Do  you  forward  any  information  to  the  place  that  you  suspect  they 
are  going  to? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  We  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  There  is  no  watch  or  anything  like  that  kept  on 
them  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No.  ^ 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  think  that  there  could  be  improvements  in 
that  direction? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  think  there  should  be  a  closer  friendship  be- 
tween the  police  departments  in  the  country.  You  see,  when  we  step 
outside  our  city  line,  we  are  lost.  I  really  think  this  bill  that  you  are 
about  to  present  is  going  to  do  a  lot  of  good  for  a  city  like  Chicago  at 
least  6  months  of  the  year  because  locally  we  have  in  the  Chicago  area, 
not  in  Chicago  proper,  we  have  six  race  tracks,  I  believe,  out  on  the 


ORGANIZED    CRIM&   IX   INTERSTATE    COMAIERCE  141 

outer  ed^es,  but  tliev  are  closed  down  about  this  time  and  they  won't 
open  up  for  about  ti  months.  I  feel  that  with  the  passa<re  of  this  le<,ns- 
lation.  for  6  months  we  can  center  more  activity  on  crime,  altliou^ri 
as  the  mayor  stated,  our  crime  has  decreased  m  Chicago  over  l.)4J 
We  have  ;is  fine  a  statistical  unit  as  there  is  m  the  country.  U  hen  1 
look  over  I  called  in  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  and  I  asked 
them  to  send  a  representative  in  here  to  bring  up  my  crime  report.  L 
dare  sav  many  of  these  captains  were  not  reporting  crimes  m  order 
to  make  it  look  good  for  themselves.  Now  we  tell  the  captain  how 
much  crime  is  in  his  district.  . 

]Mr.  RoBixsoN.  One  thing  that  has  come  to  our  attention  while  w;e 
have  been  here  is  in  connection  with  the  pay-off  to  policemen.  It  is 
entirelv  possible  that  a  great  deal  of  it  is  rumor,  but  it  seems  to  me 
that  it^is  a  rumor  that  persists.  Is  there  any  action  that  the  police 
dei:>artment  takes  ^     Have  they  made  a  thorough  investigation  ? 

Mr.  Prendekgast.  When  it  is  called  to  our  attention  we  make  an 
investigation.  . 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  How  many  instances  have  there  been  wlien  it  was 
called  to  your  attention?  .    „  .  , 

^Ir.  Prexdergast.  Very,  very  few.  The  only  information  we  get 
about  policemen  accepting  gratuities  is  from  the  automobilists,  when 
a  man  driving  his  car  is  stopped  by  a  motorcycle  policeman. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  periodically  initiate  any  investigation  on 

your  own  ?  ,  •  x  i  v  ^i 

^  Mr.  Prendergast.  Xo.  I  don't  have  the  equipment.  1  haven  t  tlie 
equipment.  Today  I  am  working  with  6,300  patrolmen  m  Chicago, 
and  I  would  say  about  250  of  those  men  are  sick,  on  the  medical  rolls, 
and  the  different  details  the  mayor  talked  about  this  morning,  men 
a  Nef^ro  family  moves  into  an  outside  area,  an  entirely  white  area,  it  is 
necessary  to  send  some  500  policemen  out  there  for  24  hours,  not  for 
this  building  here,  but  for  the  surrounding  area. 

We  are  very  timid  and  I  would  say  frightened  about  racial  disturb- 
ances If  a  race  riot  ever  starts  iii  Chicago  there  will  be  a  tough 
time  We  have  I  would  say  over  500,000  Negroes  in  Chicago  and  that 
is  what  we  are  fearful  of  more  than  anything  else.  I  would  say  the 
district  from  Twenty-second  Street  to  Sixty-first  Street,  say  Sixty- 
third  Street,  and  from  Windsor  Avenue  to  Cottage  Grove  Avenue,  is 
practically  100  percent  Negro.  If  the  Negro  takes  up  arms  and  tries 
to  move  tiie  white  out  of  there,  then  we  will  have  trouble. 

:^Ir.  Robinson.  Commissioner,  you  have  been  with  the  force  and 
have  been  commissioner  for  some  time.  Would  you  care  to  state  what 
you  consider  to  be  the  defects  in  the  system? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  In  my  system  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  what  you  would  recommend  and  what  you  may 
have  recommended  by  way  of  improving  the  system '. 

Mr   Prendergast.  *If  the  city  had  the  financial  help,  if  they  could 
give  me  help  financially,  I  shoiild  have  9,000  policemen  in  Chicago. 
^  The  CHAiR:kiAN.  How  many  do  you  have  now  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Sixty-three  hundred.  In  my  division  alone,  i 
have  over  1,000  men,  and  they  are  taken  off  the  street.  I  am  a  firm  be- 
liever in  the  old-time  policemen  who  travels  the  post.  As  a  youngster, 
I  was  born  and  raised  in  Chicago.  I  knew  that  policemen  to  travel 
that  beat.  If  I  was  out  after  10  o'clock  at  night  he  wanted  to  know 
why     I  am  a  firm  believer  in  bringing  back  the  old-time— not  the  old- 


142  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi  IN   IKiTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

time,  but  the  old-time  method  of  having  the  district  properly  policed 
with  the  man  on  foot,  instead  of  automobile.  I  am  afraid  at  times 
we  go  in  too  much  to  create  a  motorized  department.  With  the  size 
of  Chicago,  covering  212  square  miles  and  over  31/2  million  people, 
closer  to  4  million,  I  would"  say,  with  every  nationality  in  the  world 
within  our  borders,  I  think  in  order  to  do  any  kind  of  job  at  all,  me  or 
any  other  commissioner,  we  should  have  at  least  9,000  policemen.  I 
think  the  records  last  year  showed  that  there  were  384,000  broadcasts 
made  out  of  my  central  complaint  bureau.  That  is  big  business. 
Every  one  of  those  broadcasts  was  in  connection  with  some  kind  of 
complaint  for  crime. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  think  the  salary  basis  is  so  low  that  you 
cannot  attract  good  men? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  can't  attract  them.     I  am  losing  men  every  day. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  rate  of  your  turn-over? 

Mr.  PfeENDERGAST.  I  would  Say  in  the  last  month  and  a  half  I  have 
lost  50  or  60  men  who  resigned  to  take  other  positions. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  consider  that  a  high  rate  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes,  for  resignations.  Because  there  was  always 
an  incentive  for  a  policeman  in  the  police  department.  He  looked 
forward  to  the  day  when  he  got  his  pension.  In  fact,  that  is  what 
hooked  me  into  the  department.  I  looked  forward  to  the  day  when 
1  got  my  pension.  There  was  a  feeling  of  security.  But  today  they 
can  go  out  in  the  field  and  get  more  money  than  a  policeman,  they  can 
have  reasonable  hours,  work  days  all  the  time,  they  are  home  with  their 
wives  practically  all  Saturday  and  Sunday.  So  the  incentive  is  not 
there  today  to  join  the  police  department.  I  think,  as  the  mayor  said, 
with  an  increase  in  salary  for  the  policemen  we  will  create  a  new  field. 
I  dare  say  we  have  some  very  fine  men  in  the  department,  men  who 
are  interested  in  the  police  department,  interested  in  police  work. 
We  have  college  graduates.  I  located  a  boy — I  call  him  a  boy —  one  of 
my  policemen  out  on  the  South  Side  when  I  reestablished  the  labora- 
tory, and  I  learned  that  he  was  a  chemist.  I  sent  after  him,  and  I 
said,  'T  want  you  to  go  into  the  laboratory."  He  said.  'T  could  never 
get  in  there  before,  but  it  is  my  life."  Later  on  I  found  out,  along 
with  being  a  graduate  chemist  with  a  degree,  he  was  also  a  lawyer  and 
he  was  working  for  a  patrolman's  salary.  I  have  given  him  a  special 
assignment  and  a  special  salary  over  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  find  any  deficiencies  in  connection  with  the 
coordination  of  your  department  with  the  office  of  ihe  sheriif  and  the 
State  police? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Of  course  the  sheriff  takes  care  of  everything  out- 
side of  Cook  County,  and  the  State  police  very  infrequently  come  into 
Chicago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  your  office  maintain  liaison  with  those  offices? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  We  are  very  friendly.  In  fact,  the  head  of  the 
Illinois  State  police  today  is  one  of  my  captains  on  furlough,  Tom 
O'Donnel. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  wasn't  speaking  so  much.  Commissioner,  of  friend- 
ship. Is  there  any  mechanical,  actual  physical  liaison  with  those 
offices  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  other  words,  are  you  kept  well  posted  on  what  the 
the  sheriff's  office  is  doing  and  do  you  keep  him  posted  ? 


OBGAXIZED    CRIAIE    IN   I>«'TER STATE    C10M]VIERCE  143 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  This  is  a  case  of  sort  of  dealing  at  arm's  length? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Most  likely. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  think  that  is  beneficial  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Of  course,  if  I  have  anything  that  would  interest 
the  sheritf,  I  would  innnediately  acquaint  him  with  it.  On  the  other 
side,  I  know  that  he  would  do  the  same  with  me.  As  far  as  the  State 
police  are  concerned,  I  don't  believe  they  ever  called  at  my  office, 
except  that  man  O'Donnel,  who  was  appointed  head  of  the  State 
police.  Of  course,  he  was  one  of  my  captains.  I  dare  say  he  is  a  very 
good  captain.     I  think  they  made  a  very  good  selection. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  think  the  low  pay  of  the  police  is  quite  an 
incentive  to  take  money  from  some  of  these  establishments  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  say  if  they  are  doing  it  it  is  the  princi- 
pal cause. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  that  is  the  principal  cause  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  say  if  they  are  doing  it,  that  is  the 
principal  cause,  because  they  have  families.  I  know  the  mayor  is 
very  much  interested  in  seeking  funds  from  some  source.  He  did  go 
to  Springfield  to  try  to  get  some  aid  from  Springfield  and  was 
refused. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  care  to  make  any  comment  with  respect 
to  any  problems  you  have  with  respect  to  the  courts  in  Chicago? 

]\Ir.  Prendergast.  Of  course,  some  of  the  courts  are  I  think  a  little 
lenient. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  that.  Commissioner? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  A  little  lenient.  Of  course,  some  of  the  raids — 
I  was  on  the  street  myself  for  many  years — some  of  the  raids  I  made 
on  gambling,  houses  of  prostitution,  I  know  that  I  didn't  have  a  war- 
rant. When  you  haven't  got  a  warrant,  when  you  get  your  evidence 
illegally,  the  courts  hold  in  many  instances  that  you  have  no  case. 
But  at  least  I  don't  disregard  that.  I  say,  make  the  arrest.  You  are 
at  least  inconveniencing  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  may  be  true,  but  let's  take  a  case  or  any  number 
of  cases  based  on  your  experience  where  there  was  no  question  about 
the  arrest  being  illegal,  has  there  been  a  tendency  on  the  part  of  the 
courts  to  be  very  lenient  so  far  as  the  sentencing  of  gamblers  or  peo- 
ple running  gambling  establishments  or  houses  of  prostitution  and  so 
forth? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  There  may  be.  In  my  estimation,  it  is  a  little  bit 
lenient.    Of  course  I  am  looking  at  it  as  a  policeman,  not  as  a  judge. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Your  feeling  is  that  if  they  were  a  little  stricter  in 
their  sentencing,  it  would  be  beneficial  to  your  force  and  not  be  so 
demoralizing? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  like  that.  I  would  love  it.  I  think  it 
would  raise  the  standards  of  your  police  department  or  other  depart- 
ments, the  sheriff's  office. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  other  words  it  wouldn't  be  so  discouraging  to  the 
policeman. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  It  is  discouraging  at  times.  As  I  said  before,  I 
worked  on  the  street.  It  was  mighty  discouraging  when  you  worked 
for  maybe  7  or  8  or  10  days  on  a  certain  case,  then  to  walk  in  and  the 
judge  say,  "Discharged."     It  is  discouraging. 


144  ORGAKIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INfTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mv.  Robinson.  Does  your  office,  Commissioner,  liave  any  statistics 
on  the  number  of  unsolved  crimes  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  Oh,  yes.    For  what  period? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Over  a  period  of  25  or  80  years.  I  think  that  might 
be  of  some  vahie  to  the  committee  on  a  comparative  basis. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  ]:)icked  that  up.  I  just  made  some  notes  up 
here  [handing  paper  to  Mr.  Robinson]. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  think  this  might  possibly  be  made  a  part  of  the 
record,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  this  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  record. 
These  are  comparative  figures  for  the  first  10  months  of  1949  and  1950, 
showing  a  decrease  of  636  crimes.  Is  this  the  number  of  crimes 
reported  or  what  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Number  of  crimes  reported,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Let  this  be  made  an  exhibit. 

(The  information  referred  to  is  identified  as  exhibit  No.  24,  and  is 
on  file  with  the  committee.) 

The  Chairman.  What  we  wanted  was  over  the  last  10  or  15  years, 
the  number  and  the  names  of  any  of  the  unsolved  murders,  say. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  can  get  that  for  you. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  sir,  if  you  will. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Ten  years  ? 

The  Chairman.  I  think  10  years  would  be  sufficient. 

How  long  have  you  been  commissioner  of  police  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  became  commissioner  January  1,  1946.  It 
was  the  only  mistake  I  ever  made  in  the  police  department. 

Tlie  Chairman.  When  you  became  commissioner  ? 

]\Ir.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  What  were  you  right  before  you  were  commis- 
sioner ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  have  held  every  position  in  the  police  depart- 
ment.- I  was  patrolman,  sergeant,  lieutenant,  captain,  and  at  one  time 
we  had  a  supervising  captain,  an  office  of  supervising  captain,  and  I 
was  appointed  supervising  captain.  Later  on  I  was  appointed  chief 
of  the  uniformed  force,  and  then  into  the  commissioner's  office.  I  will 
say  this — and  I  am  under  oath  here — I  have  never  given  anybody  a 
cigar. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  present  salary  of  a  captain  on  the  force? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  $5,226. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  promotions  on  the  force  subject  to  civil-service 
rules  and  regulations  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  there  ever  any  influence  exerted  on  you  to  get 
people  promoted  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No.  Of  course  I  have  passed  on  very  few  exam- 
inations. My  only  part  in  the  examinations  is  creating  the  efficiency. 
I  gather  up  my  material.  Every  6  months  we  prepare  a  report  which  is 
known  as  the  props  report.  They  are  all  patrolmen.  I  took  the  props 
reports  for  31/2  years,  and  then  I  took  the  dismissals,  discharges,  sus- 
pensions, creditable  mentions,  and  one  time  we  gave  extra  compensa- 
tion for  extra  meritorious  work,  and  I  drew  up  a  balance  from  that. 
I  think  it  was  a  very  fair  way. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Commissioner,  would  you  care  to  make  any  obser- 
vations about  the  Drury  shooting?  I  have  in  mind  particularly  if 
you  think  there  is  any  way  that  the  committee  can  help. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  145 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  knew  Dniry.  When  he  ^Yas  a  reinstated  man 
to  the  department  all  of  my  district  stations  were  filled,  so  I  assigned 
him  to  mnrders  that  were  not  cleared  up.  Drury  was  the  most  peculiar 
sort  of  fellow.    I  would  say  he  was  sort  of  egotistical  m  his  ways. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  there  any  particular  reason  why  you  assigned  him 
to  that  function?  i  .    -^ 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No,  I  just  had  him  left  over.  I  thought  it 
Avould  he  a  great  thing  for  him  to  do,  to  come  back  as  a  new  captain 
after  being  discharged,  if  he  could  go  out  in  the  field  and  clear  up 
some  of  these  murders.  That  was  my  thought.  In  fact.  I  was  giving 
him  something,  if  I  were  discharged,  that  I  would  just  have  loved 
to  be  given  that  opportunity  on  murders  that  were  not  cleared  up. 

I^Ii-r  Robinson.  Do  vou  think  he  had  any  particular  qualifications 

for  that? 

^Ir.  Prendergast.  I  never  worked  with  him.  He  was  never  as- 
signed to  any  station  that  I  was  assigned  to.  I  thought  he  could 
do  some  work  in  that  field. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AVas  Connelly  assigned  at  the  same  time  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Connelly  and  Drury  were  together. 

jMr.  Robinson.  Did  he  have  any  particular  qualihcations  for  that 
assionment  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  They  were  what  I  would  call  a  fair  team,  one 
]~»rooTessive  and  the  other  standing  back  looking  over  the  situation. 
If  you  place  two  men  together,  assign  two  men  together,  and  if  they 
are  both  of  the  same  temperament  and  the  same  make-up,  as  a  rule 
they  don't  make,  good  detectives.  I  like  one  slow  and  plodding  and 
then  an  energetic  man  alongside  of  him. 

Mv.  Robinson.  Had  thev  been  in  detective  work  prior  to  that? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Oh,  yes.  They  had  been  in  the  detective  bureau 
for  many,  many  years,  I  think. 

Mr.  R"obinson.'  Did  they  ever  produce  any  results  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Oh,' they  arrested  quite  a  few  around  Chicago. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  No,  I  mean  did  they  ever  unravel  any  of  the  unsolved 
murders,  the  job  to  which  they  w^ere  assigned  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  wouldn't  say.     I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Robinson? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  like  to  make  a  little  statement  about 
this  narcotics  situation.  That  is  very  bad  in  Chicago,  especially 
among  our  colored.  As  I  said  this  morning,  the  average  age  of  the 
narcotic  user  other  than  colored  is  about  24.  I  do  know  that  the 
armed  services  won't  take  the  user.  AVe  just  have  to  think  about  it. 
I  did  appear  before  a  committee  from  Springfield,  and  I  asked  that 
the  laws  be  c'hanged  in  the  State  of  Illinois.  I  think  that  will  be 
presented  at  the  next  session,  making  it  a  felony  for  any  peddler  of 
narcotics  to  sell  to  a  minor. 

The  CiiAiRMAx.  VTimt  happened  to  your  recommendation  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  That  is  in  the  course  now. 

The  Chairman.  The  law  was  changed? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No;  it  is  to  be  presented  at  the  next  session  in 

Springfield.  ■,     n  -,        ■,    j-       q 

The  Chairman.  Why  didn't  it  get  past  when  you  had  it  up  before  ? 
Mr.  Prendergast.  They  haven't  had  a  session  since  then.     It  is  a 

new  law. 


146  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN  INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  What  can  the  Congress  do  about  the  narcotic 
matter  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  don't  know.  I  think  it  is  a  big  qriestion.  As 
was  stated  this  morning,  once  a  user,  always  a  user.  In  my  younger 
days  I  knew  quite  a  few  users,  and  I  never  knew  one  of  them  who  got 
away.  They  may  get  away  from  marihuana,  and  they  may  get  away 
from  morphine,  but  when  they  start  to  cocaine  or  heroin,  they  never 
get  away  from  it.  I  just  dropped  that  in  for  some  consideration  by 
this  committee. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Along  that  line  what  I  was  going  to  ask  is,  Do  you 
think  that  your  own  narcotics  squad  and  the  number  of  Federal  agents 
there  are  assigned  here  in  Chicago  to  narcotics  is  sufficient  to  cope 
with  the  situation? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  say  this  about  the  Federal  agents :  I  don't  think 
there  are  enough  Federal  agents  in  Chicago.  As  I  understand  it,  they 
have  three  or  four  States  to  look  after.  The  Federal  agents  in  Chicago 
should  number  at  least  40.  We  ran  into  a  lead  that  led  us  into  the 
peddler — my  figures  may  be  a  little  wrong  on  this,  but  as  I  recall  it, 
we  picked  up  37  peddlers  one  night.  Of  course  we  set  a  zero  hour  for 
them  and  the  narcotics  agents  worked  very  close  with  us.  At  one 
minute  we  all  stepi^ed  in,  and  we  drew  in  37  peddlers.  I  am  just 
dropping  that  to  you  because  I  know  what  it  is  going  to  mean  to  our 
American  kids. 

The  Chairman.  Commissioner,  I  have  just  two  or  three  very  brief 
questions.  Do  you  want  to  tell  us  about  any  clue  as  to  whether  you 
think  our  committee  work  was  in  any  way  responsible  for  the  killing 
of  Drury  or  this  fellow  Bas? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  don't  think  the  Drury  and  Bas  cases  are  asso- 
ciated at  all. 

The  Chairman.  I  mean,  do  you  think  either  one  of  them 

Mr.  Prendergast.  At  this  time  I  couldn't  say.  I  have  58  men  work- 
ing on  those  two  cases,  and  if  anything  develops  that  will  interest  the 
committee  I  will  immediately  contact  Mr.  Robinson. 

The  Chairman.  We  would  appreciate  it. 

Do  you  have  a  separate  racket  squad  to  get  at  these  rackets  which 
is  over  tlie  ward  policemen,  the  ward  chief,  or  is  everything  handled 
by  the  ward  chief  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No.     We  have  a  detective  bureau. 

The  Chairman.  I  mean,  do  they  have  city-wide  jurisdiction? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Suppose  a  ward  policeman  was  accepting  graft  to 
protect  some  gambling  in  his  ward,  would  this  detective  bureau  auto- 
matically and  systematically  check  what  was  going  on  in  that  ward 
from  time  to  time? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No.  I  have  a  special  squad  working  out  of  my 
office  consisting  of  three  men.     They  do  my  work  for  me. 

The  Chairman.  Don't  you  think  that  you  might  have  difficulty  dis- 
covering a  situation  in  a  particular  ward  unless  you  did  have  somebody 
who  made  a  general  check  over  the  city  instead  of  just  being  concen- 
trated in  one  particular  ward? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  If  I  had  the  manpower,  I  would  love  it. 

The  Chairman.  It  would  be  a  good  idea  if  you  had  it. 

Mr.  PRENDERtiAST.  AVliat  I  sliould  have  in  my  department  is  10  men, 
trained  investigators.     That  is  what  I  should  have,  not  policemen. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  147 

The  CiiAiRMAx.  Just  let  them  range  the  whole  city. 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  That  is  what  I  need. 

The  Chairman.  As  it  is  now,  you  are  dependent  upon  the  precinct 
•captain,  and  if  he  goes  bad,  then  you  are  in  bad  shape  in  that  precinct ; 
is  that  correct  ? 

]Mr.  Prexdergast.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairmax.  How  about  political  interference  with  your  work 
in  the  police  department  ^ 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  Not  in  my  work.     I  have  only  one  boss. 

The  Chairmax.  I  mean,  are  there  efforts  by  politicians  of  either 
party  or  any  party  to  interfere  with  your  work? 

]Mr.  Prexdergast.  I  can  answer  that  question  by  saying  nobody  in- 
terferes with  my  work.  I  work  for  one  man  and  work  for  one  man 
alone,  and  that  is  the  mayor  of  the  city  of  Chicago. 

The  Chairmax.  How  about  trying  to  interfere?  Do  they  try  to 
interfere  with  you? 

]Mr.  Prexdergast.  Xo,  no. 

The  Chairmax-^.  Of  course  you  are  speaking  for  yourself.  How 
about  your  ward  captains? 

Mr.  Prex-^dergast.  I  can't  answer  that. 

The  Chairmax-^.  Do  they  report  to  you  when  there  is  an  attempted 
interference  by  politicians? 

Mr.  Prex'dergast.  No,  sir;  none  of  them  ever  have.  There  never 
lias  been  any  report  suomitted  to  me  either  verbally  or  otherwise. 

The  Chairmax.  They  are  supposed  to  report  to  you  if  anything  like 
that  happens? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  That  is  right,  but  they  haven't  reported. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  a  standing  order  that  they  should  report? 

Mr.  Prex'dergast.  They  haven't  reported. 

The  Chairman.  Somebody  this  morning  indicated  that  up  to  about 
31/^  years  ago  you  could  walk  in  plush  gambling  casinos  right  here  in 
the  city,  but  that  the  situation  has  changed.  \Vhat  is  the  difference 
now? 

Mr.  Prex'dergast.  The  situation  has  changed  in  this  way,  that  today 
they  have  opened  what  we  call  wdre  rooms. 

The  Chairman'.  You  were  the  commissioner  of  i^olice  31^  or  4  3'ears 
ago.    How  did  that  get  by  then  ? 

Mr.  Prex'^dergast.  No,  not  since  I  have  been  commissioner.  Im- 
mediately when  I  took  over  I  started  out  to  knock  them  over. 

The  Chairman.  What  has  the  situation  changed  to,  you  say? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  AVhere  the  newsboy,  cigar  store,  bartender  in  a 
tavern  will  take  a  bet,  and  he  has  a  telephone  number  and  he  calls  up, 
registers  the  bet  or  the  wager.  That  is  the  reason  for  all  these  tele- 
phones coming  up.  The  mayor  said  this  morning  that  in  one  place 
over  on  the  West  Side  we  took  out  30  telephones.  I  understand  the 
telephone  company,  directly  associated  with  the  telephone  company, 
removed  many  more.  I  reported  to  the  telephone  company.  My  men 
have  orders  when  they  run  into  telephones  or  a  wire  room  immediately 
to  call  the  telephone  company.  The  telephone  company  sends  a  repre- 
sentative out  there  and  picks  up  the  phones. 

The  Chairmax.  If  you  make  a  charge,  then  they  do  remove  the 
phones  ? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  Thev  have  been  very  cooperative. 


148  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   IN/TERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Have  they  been  cooperative  all  aloiif^  or  just  here 
recently  ? 

Mr,  Prendergast.  Oh,  no,  since  I  took  over.  I  think  we  have  taken 
out  over  2,000  phones  in  the  last — 2,039  telephones  were  removed  since 
1947. 

The  Chairman.  You  said  that  some  bill  would  help  you  with  your 
Avork  if  the  Federal  Government  or  Congi-ess  passed  it.  Were  you 
referring  to  at  least  slowing  down  the  use  of  the  wire  service  in  giving^ 
racing  information  ?    Is  that  the  bill  you  were  referring  to  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  don't  think  a  gambler  can  operate 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  the  bill  you  were  referring  to  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  You  think  gamblers  would  have  a  harder  time 
operating  ^ 

Mr.  Prendergast.  It  would  help  for  about  6  months  of  the  year 
when  the  local  race  tracks  are  closed.  The  minute  the  local  race  tracks 
open,  then  I  suppose  we  have  another  problem. 

The  Chairman.  We  would  be  glad  if  you  would  consider  all  these 
recommendations  that  we  are  considering  and  give  us  any  further 
recommendations  about  them. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  have  so  told  Mr.  Robinson. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  have  a  few  questions. 

Do  you  know  of  any  evidence  or  have  you  an  opinion  as  to  whether 
the  Capone  group  of  gangsters  or  their  successors  are  still  operating 
in  any  fashion  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge.  I  have  nothing 
in  my  reports  to  indicate  that  they  are. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  believe  that  there  is  still  such  a  thing  as  a 
Capone  syndicate  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  say  that  a  certiiin  element  may  be 
operating  in  Chicago  and  the  Chicago  area. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  would  you  think  they  would  be  operating, 
in  what  field?  Where  would  you  advise  this  committee  to  look? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Whether  it  is  a  subterfuge  or  not  I  don't  know, 
but  the  so-called  fellows  who  are  named  in  tlie  papers  and  don't 
bear  a  good  reputation  have  gone  into  many  legitimate  fields. 

Mr.  Halley.  Are  they  in  the  w^ire  service,  the  racing  wire  service? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  would  think  they  were. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  police  commissioner  when  Ragen  was 
murdered  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  murder  was  tied  in  with  the  war  between  the 
Trans- American  and  Continental  wire  services,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  think  it  was ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  were  the  people  in  Trans- American  at  that  time  ? 
Did  you  ever  find  out? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  think  'I  have  something  on  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  there  any  of  the  Capone  mobstei-s  in  it? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  think  I  can  get  you  some  information  on  that. 
I  think  I  have  some  information. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  would  be  very  important  information.  Would 
you  prefer  to  give  us  that  information  after  you  have  checked  your 
files? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  149 

Mr.  Prendergast.  I  want  you  to  know  that  anything  that  I  have  in 
my  files  is  open  to  you. 

Mr.  Hallet.  All  I  mean  is,  I  assume  you  don't  have  it  at  the  tip 
of  your  tongue  and  you  want  to  wait  until  you  find  it. 

The  Chairman.  We  certainly  would  appreciate  it  if  you  would 
give  Mr.  Robinson  what  you  have. 

Mr.  Prexderoast.  Certainly  I  will  give  it  to  Mr.  Kobinson. 

Mr.  H alley.  Commissioner,  what  otlier  legitimate  enterprises  do 
you  think  tlie  Capone  gang  is  in  today  ;' 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  1  undei-stand  some  are  in  the  real  estate  business 
and  some  are  in  the  liening  business.  I  understand  some  of  them  are 
in  the  water  business  and  others  are  in  the  towel  business. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  a  list  or  could  you  get  us  a  list? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  I  will  get  you  anything  you  want. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  mean  do  you  have  that  information? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  Anything  I  have.  'If  I  don't  have  it,  I  think  I 
am  in  a  position  to  get  vrhat  you  want. 

The  CiiAiRMAX'.  Do  you  have  a  list  of  the  names  of  people  who  are 
alleged  or  believed  to  be  in  the  towel  business,  in  the  water  business 
and  so  forth  ? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  That  list  was  published  in  the  newspapers  here 
shortly  after  you  opened  up.  and  I  immediately  assigned  it  to  my 
chief  of  detectives  to  make  a  check  on  each  and  every  one  of  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  instance.  Humphreys  is  in  the  towel  business  and 
Ralph  Capone  in  the  water  business. 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  Did  you  see  that  ^ 

Mr.  RoBix'sox".  Something  was  published. 

Mr.  Prex'dergast.  I  immediately  checked  that. 

The  Chairmax^.  Will  you  have  them  furnish  us  for  our  record  what 
they  have  up  to  date  ? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  any  information  at  all.  Commissioner, 
about  the  ^Nlafia? 

Mr.  Prexder(;ast.  No.  Years  ago,  of  course,  I  knew  a  little  about 
the  Unione  Siciliano.     Was  that  it  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  We  have  had  some  testimony  that  in  Chicago  the 
Unione  Siciliano  at  least  took  some  legitimate  and  open  form  as  a 
fraternal  organization. 

Mr.  Prexi)er(jast.  Years  ago  I  worked  at  the  Chicago  Avenue  dis- 
trict. That  is  the  district  where  Harrison  is.  In  those  days  there  was 
quite  an  Italian — Sicilian,  I  will  say,  not  Italian,  because  I  know  some 
very  fine  Italians  in  this  city.  But  there  was  a  crowd  of  Sicilians  over 
around  Oak  and  Cambridge  and  there  were  so  many  deaths  over  there 
that  it  got  to  be  known  as  death  corner. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  there  such  a  thing  as  a  IMafia  or  a  Unione  Siciliano 
operating? 

Mr.  Prexdergast.  They  always  referred  to  it  as  that.  But  of  course 
they  were  all  sealed.  In  fact,  one  day  we  had  a  murder  over  there,  a 
boy  was  walking  down  Oak  Street  with  his  father  at  12  o'clock  noon, 
and  they  shot  the  father  down.  The  boy  didn't  see  anything,  the  son. 
I  said  to  him,  "That  is  your  father.  Please  give  us  something  on  it." 
He  said  nothing.    He  was  walking  down  the  street  with  his  father. 

The  Chairmax^.  When  was  that  ? 


150  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Pkendergast.  Oh,  that  was  around  1915  or  1918. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  any  files  at  all  on  it  ? 

Mr.  Pkendergast.  We  had  a  squad  here  known  as  the  Black  Hand» 
I  suppose  most  of  those  fellows  are  dead  now. 

Mr.  Halley.  Are  there  any  left  who  might  give  us  some  information 
on  the  Black  Hand  operation? 

Mr.  Pkendergast.  I  will  check.    I  think  most  of  them  are  dead. 

Mr.  Halley.  If  there  are  any  at  all  we  would  like  to  know  about 
them. 

Mr.  Pkendergast.  I  will  check  on  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

The  Chairman.  In  that  connection,  Commissioner.  DeLucia  or 
Ricca,  whatever  his  name  is,  testified  that  not  so  very  long  ago — we 
could  give  you  the  exact  street — the  Unione  Siciliano,  which  he  de- 
scribed as  being  the  fraternal  insurance  organization,  and  he  paid 
money  into  the  organization  and  they  got  some  kind  of  insurance 
protection,  which  did  have  meetings  on  occasions,  had  an  office  on  one 
of  the  main  streets  here  where  people  went  and  left  their  money  just 
as  if  they  were  operating  an  insurance  company.  Do  you  know  any- 
thing about  that? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  It  may  be  operated,  Unione  Siciliano,  under  a 
legitimate  surroundings. 

The  Chairman.  Do  we  have  the  record  of  the  testimony  of  these 
fellows  taken  in  AVashington  ? 

Mr.  Halley,  Yes,  we  have. 

The  Chairman.  Let's  get  that. 

Commissioner,  we  would  be'  very  grateful  if  you  coidd  have  your 
detective  force  check  this  place  and  see  if  it  is  still  being  operated. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  would  be  in  DeLucia's  testimony. 

Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  name  of  John  Bolger  or  Bulger  in  con- 
nection with  the  Unione  Siciliano  ? 

Mr.  Pkendergast.  It  seems  to  me  I  have.  I  heard  it  in  some  con- 
nection. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  loiow  who  he  is  ? 

Mr.  Pkendergast,  I  can  find  out. 

Mr.  Robinson.  It  is  B-u-1-g-e-r. 

Mr.  Pkendergast.  That  is  not  his  right  name. 

Mr.  Kerner.  It  is  Joseph  Imburgio. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  It  wouldn't  be  Bulger. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Phil  D'Andrea  ? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  Just  by  reputation. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  know  his  father? 

Mr.  Prendergast.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Commissioner,  here  is  what  Mr.  DeLucia  said 
about  it : 

Did  you  ever  hear  of  the  Unione  Siciliano? 

Yes,  but  that  has  been  changed  to  either  the  Italian-American  Union — 

Then  he  goes  on  to  say  that  the  Unione  Siciliano  was  a  society, 
that  when  he  was  in  it  Joe  Bulger  was  the  president,  Ferreta  was  the 
secretary,  and  Cocia  was  something  else;  that  he  thinks  the  address 
was  111  Washington  Street.  He  said  they  had  a  number  of  lodges  in 
Chicago.  He  said  it  is  still  operating  on  Washington  Street.  Before 
that  they  were  on  State  Street. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  151 

We  would  appreciate  it  if  you  can  get  any  information  on  that. 
Mr  Prendergast.  You  want  a  check  made  on  the  Unione  bicihano  i 
'   The  Chairman.  Yes,  sir.     Or  its  name  may  be  changed  to  this 

Mr'  Halley.  My  guess,  Conmiissioner,  would  be  that  any  files  on 
your  old  Black  Hand  squad  would  be  the  place  where  we  might  find 
the  most  interesting  information.  n  ,      i  t 

Mr.  Prendergast.  The  old  Black  Hand  squad  was  broken  up.  i 
would  say,  maybe  in  1923.  '  «       •     ,  -o,     i 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  all  right.  Any  arrests,  for  instance,  Black 
Hand  arrests,  that  you  can  show  us,  for  instance  a  group  of  people 
arrested  in  a  batch  for  Black  Hand,  would  provide  names  that  I 
think  would  be  of  great  interest  to  the  committee  today. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  All  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Going  back  even  to  1910. 

Mr.  Prendergast.  You  would  have  to  go  back  to  1910. 

Mr  Halley.  It  proved  verv  helpful  in  Kansas  City. 

Mr  Prendergast.  I  would  say  about  1917  or  1918  is  when  I  was 
assigned  to  that  district  over  there.  It  was  my  thought  I  would  love 
to  clean  up  a  Black  Hand  case,  but  I  was  never  successful.  I  think  I 
cleared  up  every  other  case  on  the  books,  but  not  a  Black  Hand  case. 
I  came  close  to  'it  several  times. 

Jklr.  Robinson.  I  think  we  would  be  interested  m  whether  or  not 
Phil  b'Andrea's  father  appeared  at  that  time  to  be  involved  m  any 

way.  .   ,  .    .         ,. 

The  Chairman.  Any  more  questions  now  of  the  commissioner  ? 

Commissioner,  we  appreciate  your  willingness  to  get  all  of  this  in- 
formation for  us  and  your  apeparance  here.  We  will  be  in  touch  with 
you  from  time  to  time.  If  there  are  any  other  matters  that  you  think 
of  that  will  be  of  help  to  us,  we  will  welcome  your  assistance  and  your 
suggestions.  . 

]Mr.  Prendergast.  I  want  vou  to  know  that  any  assistance  i  can  give 
you  will  be  forthcoming.    It  won't  be  necessary  to  ask  a  second  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  want  to  say  for  the  record  I  understand  from  George 
Robinson  that  the  commissioner  has  been  most  helpful  at  all  times. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  We  have  received  fine  cooperation  from  him. 

The  Chairman.  We  appreciate  your  help  to  Mr.  Robinson  and  this 

committee.  .  ,    , , 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  think  as  our  investigation  gets  on  we  will  probably 
be  seeing  more  and  more  of  you.  . 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you.  Commissioner.  We  will  be  m  touch 
with  you  from  time  to  time. 

Mr.'  Prendergast.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Tlie  Chairman.  All  right,  gentlemen.    We  have  to  move  on  here. 

Mr.  Boyle,  my  associates  here  say  I  am  always  rushing  them.  Mr. 
Robinson? 

FURTHER  TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  S.  BOYLE.  STATE'S  ATTORNEY, 
COOK  COUNTY,  ILL. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  Bovle.  I  think  probably  it  would  be  informative 
if  you  would  discuss  briefly  to  the  committee  what  the  functions  of 
your  office  are  and  how  it  is  organized.  i  .  ,    -r      i  i 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  operate  under  the  1870  constitution  which  I  told 
you  about  before.     The  State's  attorney  of  this  county  handles  all 


152  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COAIMERCE 

criminal  eases  ,all  misdemeanors.  We  also  have  a  civil  branch  in  which 
we  handle  all  tax  cases  in  the  county.  That  is,  real-estate  taxes  and 
personal  proj^erty  taxes.  Under  this  consitution  we  represent  every 
elected  county  otlicial,  the  sheriiT.  county  commissioners,  the  county 
treasurer,  and  I  am  the  attorney  for  all  these  elected  officials.  In  ad- 
dition to  that,  of  course  we  have  the  juvenile  court  where  we  have 
assistant  attorneys.  We  have  1121  South  State  Street  Police  Building 
where  we  have  seven  assistants.  We  have  the  criminal  building  at 
Twenty-sixth  and  California. 

As  I  said  before,  this  county  has  a  poi)ulati(Mi  of  about  4,700.000 
people.  In  order  to  give  you  a  picture  of  the  county,  if  you  will  for- 
give me  for  just  a  moment,  if  you  can  visualize  this  table  as  being 
the  city  of  Chicago  within  the  center  of  the  county,  outside  in  the 
county,  in  what  we  call  the  country  towns,  live  1,000,000  people.  We 
have  Villages  of  70,000  population.  Each  one  of  those  villages  has 
its  own  police  department.  They  have  their  own  village  govern- 
ments or  citv  governments.  The  city  of  Evanston  has  70,000 ;  Cicero 
has  67,000.  ^  The  village  I  live  in,  Oak  Park,  has  about  66,000  people. 
Then  we  have  Berwin  with  about  55,000  people.  They  are  really 
cities  outside  of  Chicago  within  the  county  area.  We  prosecute  all 
cases  within  the  corporate  limits  of  the  county.  The  county  has  800 
square  miles.  It  is  the  largest  county  in  the  United  States.  I  be- 
lieve we  have  the  biggest  law  office  in  the  United  States.  We  have 
99  assistant  State's  attornej^s.  21  assigned  to  civil  work,  and  those 
civil  cases  involve  cases  sometimes  as  much  as  $1,000,000  or  $2,000,000, 
which  go  to  the  United  States  Supreme  Court,  We  file  claims  in  the 
Federal  court  over  here  on  receiverships  and  bankruptcies,  and  in- 
volving the  Chicago  Transit  Authority.  We  have  had  several  cases 
of  that  type. 

Each  year  our  grand  jury  returns  3,000  indictments  on  felonies 
and  a  few  misdemeanors  M'hicli  come  from  country  towns.  As  I  told 
you,  we  have  a  oO-day  grand  jury.  We  have  a  law  in  this  State, 
under  a  case  which  I  tried,  People  v.  Umhle^ii,  which  holds  that  any 
man  charged  with  a  crime  must  be  tried  within  4  months  from  the 
date  of  arrest.  If  he  is  in  jail,  he  doesn't  have  to  make  a  demand 
for  trial,  but  if  he  is  out  on  bond  he  must  make  a  demand  in  writing 
within  that  period  of  time.  If  you  don't  try  him  within  4  months 
from  the  date  of  arrest,  not  the  date  of  indictment  but  the  date  of 
arrest,  then  he  goes  free.  We  haven't  had  anybody  discharged  under 
that  4-month  term.  At  the  beginning  of  this  court  term  we  had  400 
indictments  pending,  which  is  a  little  over  a  month's  work.  Our 
conviction  rate  for  the  calendar  year  September  1949  to  S?ptember 
1950  was  92  percent.  We  got  convictions  in  92  percent  of  our  cases. 
That  average  holds  true  in  the  criminal  counts. 

Under  the  statute  and  under  the  law,  the  State's  attorney  of  this 
county  is  merely  supposed  to  present  evidence  to  a  grand  jury  or  he 
is  supposed  to  present  cases  to  a  court  or  to  a  jury. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  other  words,  you  do  no  investigative  work  until 
a  charge  has  been  made. 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  what  the  duty  of  the  State's  attorney  is,  but 
we  have  gone  beyond  that.  Approximately  40  percent  of  our  crimes 
arraigned  before  the  chief  justice  of  the  criminal  court  are  people  who 
have  lived  here  less  than  90  days.  Chicago  is  the  greatest  railroad 
center  in  the  country,  and  the  same  trains  which  bring  people  in  for 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  153 

conventions  and  business  meetings  are  the  same  trains  that  bring  you. 
When  Jndae  Harrington  was  our  chief  justice  3  years  ago  it  ran  44 
percent.  He  kept  a  complete  record  of  that.  They  had  been  here 
for  less  than  90  days.  The  police  in  Chicago  don't  know  who  they 
are  or  their  records  until  they  make  an  arrest,  of  course.  Then,  of 
course,  we  have  48  percent  of  our  crime  committed  by  colored  people. 
We  have  a  tremendous  colored  population  here. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  your  office  make  any  investigation  on  its  own 
initiative!' 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes;  we  do  at  times. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Is  that  infrequent? 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  liave  assigned  to  our  office  about  76  police  officers 
of  the  city  of  Cliicago  to  do  investigative  work.  Of  course  when  we 
(ret  a  case  we  must  investigate  it  in  order  to  get  all  the  witnesses  avail- 
able for  the  trial. 

Mr.  E.0BINS0N.  How  many  officers  in  the  police  department? 

Mr.  BoY-LE.  Seventy-six. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Under  whom  do  they  operate  ? 

Mr.  BoYLE.  They  operate  under  Captain  Gilbert,  who  is  our  chief 
investigator. 

^Ir.  Robinson.  He  is  under  your  direction  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Under  my  direction;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  doesn't  come  under  the  direction  of  the  com- 
missioner? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  he  does  not.  He  is  loaned  to  the  State's  attorney  s 
office  and  his  salarv  is  set  up  in  the  county  budget.  His  pay  as  a 
police  captain  is  turned  back  to  the  city  of  Chicago.  He  gets  paid 
by  the  county. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  appointive  office? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  an  appointive  office ;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  By  the  mayor  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No ;  by  the  State's  attorney. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  does  your  office  operate  vis-a-vis  the  attorney 
general's  office? 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  attorney  general's  office  handles  all  appeals  with 
our  office.  In  other  words,  all  appeals  of  criminal  cases  where  we. 
get  a  conviction,  the  attorney  general  joins  in  with  us,  and  those  cases 
go  directly  to  our  supreme'  court.     Our  police  department  handles 

that.  ^    ^  ...        , 

:Mr.  Robinson.  Can  the  attorney  general  suspend  the  activities  of  a 
State's  attorney  so  far  as  any  particular  investigation  is  concerned 
and  operate  on  his  own  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  suppose  he  has  that  power.  He  never  has  that  I  know 
of,  not  here  at  least. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  he  has  in  other  areas  where 
there  are  State's  attorneys  ^ 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  has  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  other  words,  he  has  no  supervisory  power  over 
you  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  none  at  all.  We  take  it  upon  ourselves  to  send 
police  out  when  there  are  an;^  labor  troubles  of  any  kind.  I  think  we 
liave  the  best  labor  relations  in  the  country  in  this  area.     We  recently 

68958— 51— pt.  5 11 


154  ORGANIZED    CRIMD   IN   INiTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

had  a  case  where  some  fellows  from  the  United  Eleccrical  Workers 
started  a  riot  and  beat  up  some  men.  We  indicted  and  tried  them 
and  convicted  them. 

In  addition  to  the  duties  of  tryin^r  these  criminal  cases  which  come 
into  our  office,  we  started  November  1,  lO-tO,  on  our  own,  to  go  out 
and  make  raids  on  places  that  had  slot  machines.  Since  November  of 
1949  we  have  confiscated  and  destroyed  564  slot  machines. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  that  be  a  duty  that  you  would  take  on  because 
other  law  enforcement  agencies  failed  to  do  it  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wliat  agencies  would  have  the  first  responsibility  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  sheriff  of  Cook  County  is  supposed  to  do  that.  It 
wasn't  being  done  and  we  knew  there  were  slot  machines  out  in  the 
county,  so  we  sent  our  men  out  night  after  night  and  made  these  raids 
and  confiscated  564  slot  machines.  In  those  cases  every  time  we  made  a 
raid  the  man  was  fined  $100,  and  the  slot  machine  was  confiscated.  We 
felt  a  syndicate  was  operating  with  these  slot  machines,  at  a  cost  to  them 
of  about  $350,000  or  $400,000  during  that  period  of  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  find  in  the  course  of  those  raids  that  the  per- 
son from  whom  the  slot  machine  was  confiscated  was  the  OAvner  of  the 
machine  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  In  many  instances  we  found  that  was  not  true.  They 
at  least  said  they  didn't  own  them  and  they  were  forced  upon  them. 
They  won't  tell  us  who  brought  them  in  or  who  serviced  them.  They 
walk  into  court  and  take  their  $100  fine  and  plea  of  guilty.  They  plead 
guilty. 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  the  maximum  fine  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  the  maxinunn  fine  on  first  offense.  On  the 
second  offense  you  can  fine  them  up  to  $500. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  mere  possession  of  the  machine  illegal  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.     In  our  opinion,  it  is ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Boyle,  after  the  man  has  taken  liis  conviction  and 
his  fine,  and  therefore  is  no  longer  in  jeopardy,  would  it  be  legally  pos- 
sible to  take  him  before  a  grand  jury  and  just  make  him  tell  who  put 
the  machine  in  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Then  he  would  refuse  to  testify  on  the  ground  he  would 
incriminate  himself. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  could  he  after  he  had  paid  the  fine  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  maybe  we  should  do  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  furnish  us  with  the  names  of  all  these 
men  from  whom  machines  were  confiiscated  and  who  would  not  tell 
where  they  got  them? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Oh,  yes.     We  have  their  names  and  the  places. 

The  Chairman.  Give  us  8  or  10  of  the  most  notorious  ones,  maybe 
second  offenders  or  what  not. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  will  give  you  that  list. 

The  Chairman.  We  would  like  the  entire  list  of  course. 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  will  give  you  the  entire  list.  We  will  furnish  you 
with  the  entire  list. 

Mr.  Boyle.  In  addition  to  that  where  gambling  was  operating  in 
country  towns  and  we  would  warn  them  over  a  period  of  time  to 
cease  gambling,  we  would  also  send  a  letter  to  the  sheriff  of  Cook 
County  that  gambling  was  operating,  and  if  it  didn't  stop  we  indicted 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    OOMMEBCE  155 

the  chief  of  police.  We  indicted  the  chief  of  police  of  Calumet  City. 
He  was  tried  by  a  jury  in  the  criminal  court.  To  give  you  an  idea  how 
jurors  react  sometimes,  he  admitted  that  gambling  wiis  going  was 
going  on  in  the  city.  He  said  he  had  a  small  police  force  and  he  had 
to  police  the  school  crossings.  Because  of  the  taverns — I  think  there 
were  200  in  a  village  of  20,000  people,  which  paid  a  license  fee  of  $4:00 
apiece — because  of  this  income  he  said  they  had  the  lowest  tax  rate 
in  our  county.  The  people  wanted  that  sort  of  thing  out  there  and 
the  jury  found  him  not  guilty. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  can  get  you  the  exact  date.     I  dont  have  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  xVpproximately. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Several  months  ago.  We  also  tried  the  chief  of  po- 
lice  

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  his  name? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  don't  know  whether  I  have  it  or  not.  It  is  a  long- 
Polish  name.  I  think  I  have  it  here.  Just  a  minute.  I  will  get  that 
in  just  a  second.  We  also  tried  the  chief  of  police  of  Melrose  Park 
and  indicted  him.  His  name  was  Wigglesorth.  That  is  where  this 
famous  Lumber  Gardens  was  supposed  to  be  operating,  owned  by  the 
DeGrazia  brothers.  After  several  warnings  he  was  indicated  and 
tried  in  criminal  court  and  he  was  found  not  guilty.  AVe  moved  heaven: 
and  earth  to  get  conviction  in  both  of  these  cases.  In  Cicero  we  had 
the  chief  of  police  of  Cicero  before  the  grand  jury,  named  Martin 
Wojiahowski.  The  grand  jury  told  them  they  were  given  10  days 
in  which  to  clean  up  Cicero  and  in  the  meantime  he  resigned  and 
another  police  chief  took  his  place,  Christopher  Rooney,  who  is  a  very 
good  police  officer,  according  to  reports.  He  had  been  to  the  FBI 
school.     He  was  veiy  good,  according  to  reports. 

On  labor  relations  out  at  Cicero,  where  they  had  several  uprisings, 
he  handled  it  very  well.  We  sent  for  him  because  he  didn't  suppress 
gambling  in  Cicero,  and  he  resigned.  We  now  have  a  third  chief  of 
police  in  the  village  of  Cicero. 

We  apprise  every  chief  of  police  of  countr}'  towns  as  to  where  gam- 
bling places  are  located.  My  fellows  go  out,  these  investigators,  and 
check,  and  find  gambling.  It  is  easy  to  find  it.  What  they  do  is  ride 
around  and  see  a  bunch  of  cars  parked  in  front  of  some  tavern  in 
the  afternoon.  So  they  pull  in  and  that  is  where  it  is.  That  is  where 
they  are  getting  bets.     It  is  that  simple. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  it  true,  Mr.  Boyle,  that  most  of  the  slot  ma- 
chines are  manufactured  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr,  Boyle.  That  is  true ;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson,  Do  you  find  in  the  course  of  j'our  raids  any  bills  of 
sale  from  these  manufacturers  to  the  place  where  you  raid  ? 

]\Ir,  Boyle.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  these  are  contraband 
machines  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  are  contraband ;  jes. 

Mr,  Robinson.  In  other  words,  are  they  brought  from  some  plac^ 
outside  the  State? 

Mr.  Boyle,  Oh,  I  don't  know  about  that;  no.  There  is  Mills 
Novelty.  Most  of  them  are  Mills.  Mr.  Halley  looked  at  some  of  them. 
We  had  some  Jennings.    Then  we  have  these  great  big  consoles.    They 


156  ORGATS'IZED    CRIMEi   IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

are  probably  Avorth  a  thousand  dollars  apiece.  We  have  any  number 
of  those. 

Mr.  Halley.  Before  we  pass  the  slot  machines,  would  you  very 
briefly,  because  it  is  a  very  involved  matter,  tell  the  committee  about 
the  problem  you  had  in  getting  testimony  from  the  members  of  the 
Tam  OVShanter  Golf  (^lub? 

Mr,  Boyle.  Tam  O'Shanter  Country  Club  was  su])posed  to  be  a 

{)rivate  club  operated  by  a  maiTi  by  the  name  of  George  S.  May.  We 
lad  rumors  that  there  were  slot  machines  there  and  there  was 
gambling.  So  on  July  4  we  made  a  raid,  and  we  arrested  May  and 
we  got  27  slot  machines  in  that  place.  Then  the  grand  jury  sent 
for  the  books  and  records.  They  refused  to  bring  the  books  and 
records.  They  defied  the  grand  jury.  Judge  Miner  held  a  fellow  by 
the  name  of  Ryan  in  contempt  of  court.  He  admitted  he  had  the 
books,  but  he  wouldn't  bring  them  in.  He  lield  him  in  contempt  of 
court  and  sentenced  him  to  6  months  in  jail.  In  addition  to  that, 
he  held  in  abeyance  and  continued  the  other  cases  until  next  February, 
with  the  understanding  that  whatever  outcome  this  case  had  in  our 
supreme  court  he  would  decide  the  other  cases.  Some  of  those  other 
men  were  businessmen  of  high  caliber  and  high  standing  in  the  com- 
munity. They  were  officers  of  this  club.  We  know  that  May  owns 
the  golf  grounds,  the  grounds  on  which  the  club  is  located.  That  is 
one  corporation.  Another  corporation  operates  the  golf  club.  They 
pay  him  $75,000  a  year  for  the  use  of  the  grounds.  He  is  supposed  to 
have  amassed  a  fortune.  During  the  course  of  our  investigation  we 
also  discovered  that  many  years  ago  he  was  convicted  and  sent  to  the 
penitentiary  for  embezzlement.  He  is  supposed  to  be  an  industrial 
engineer  and  to  have  a  Nation-wide  business  and  to  be  a  very  re- 
spectable member  of  the  community. 
Mr.  Halley.  Is  that  the  May  Col  ? 
Mr.  Boyle.  George  S.  May." 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  that  the  George  S.  May  that  was  convicted? 
Mr.  Boyle.  Many  years  ago. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  was  convicted  in  the  Tam  O'Shanter  case  ? 
Mr.  Boyle.  No,  no.    He  is  in  the  Tam  O'Shanter  case. 
The  Chairman.  He  was  convicted  of  embezzlement  some  years  ago. 
Mr.  Boyle.  Some  years  ago ;  yes.     It  is  something  nobody  knows 
anything  about. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  there  any  evidence  that,  while  slot  machines  were 
not  available  to  the  operators  of  other  clubs,  the  Tam  O'Shanter  Club 
was  apparently  being  able  to  get  and  keep  its  slot  machines? 

]Mr.  Boyle.  There  are  a  lot  of  clubs  around  Chicago,  privately 
owned  golf  clubs,  wdio  own  their  own  slot  machines,  or  did.  We  felt 
there  was  no  connection  with  any  syndicate  or  anything  of  that  kind. 
They  owned  the  slot  machines  and  they  had  them  in  their  clubs  for 
their  use  of  their  members.  I  sent  letters  to  all  of  the  clubs  and  told 
them  it  was  illegal  to  have  a  slot  machine  and  to  take  them  down, 
^riiat  was  after  there  were  some  hold-ups.  Several  of  them  were  held 
up.  The  pressure  was  on  them  so  bad  when  we  were  taking  all  these 
hundreds  of  machines  that  they  had  to  get  them  someplace.  So  they 
went  out  and  held  up  these  clubs  and  took  the  machines  away  from 
them.  We  tried  to  trace  numbers,  but  the  numbers  of  all  of  them  had 
Leen  cMaeled  off.    We  keep  a  record  in  J.  P.  courts  of  the  iiumbers  of 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  157 

all  slot  machines  confiscated  by  the  sheriff  as  well  as  our  office.  He 
hasn't  had  many  since  November,  since  we  started  to  do  this  work 
I  don't  know  of  any  that  he  has  had.  The  numbers  have  been  chipped 
off  of  everv  one  of  the  slot  machines. 

]SIr.  RoBixsoN.  Do  you  have  any  suspicious  as  to  who  was  concluct- 
ing  those  hokl-ups  ^  .  , 

Mr  Boyle.  No;  we  haven't.  We  have  worked  on  it  for  months. 
There  are  certain  license  numbers  that  we  have  traced  and  they  are 
faulty  license  numbers.  _ 

Mi\  Robinson.  Have  you  any  indication  at  all,  however  tlimsy,  tliat 

Vogel  was  in  back  of  it  % 

]\[r.  Boyle.  Who^ 

Mr.  RoBiNSOx.  Vogel.  t     ^       p 

Mr  B')YLF  It  is  mv  humble  opinion  that  some  syndicate  of  some 
sort  was  in  back  of  it'because  they  wouldn't  touch  the  persons  in  the 
place  They  wouldn't  touch  their  money  or  their  pocket  books,  i  liey 
would  say,  Ve  are  not  bothering  vou.  We  want  those  slot  machines 
and  that  is  all  we  want.  That  is  all  they  took.  I  guess  the  theory  was 
that  that  wasn't  robbery. 

Mx.  Robinson.  These  were  the  clubs  that  were  owners  and  opera- 
tors of  the  machines?  T        1    1       AT 

I^lr.  Boyle.  Where  a  group  of  board  of  directors  ran  the  club.  Wo 
individual  ran  it. 

JSIr.  Robinson.  The  club  owned  the  machines. 

Mr  Boyle.  Tbev  owned  the  machines ;  that  is  right. 

^Ir.  Robinson,  that  is  not  the  usual  practice  here ;  is  it,  where  they 
own  the  machines  \ 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes,  private  clubs. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  was  under  the  impression  that  the  usual  practice 
w^as  that  outside  people  took  a  certain  percentage  of  the  operations. 

Mr  Boyle.  Nothing  like  that  at  all.  Wlien  they  startecl  to  move 
in  to  take  the  percentage  and  also  started  to  take  slot  machines,  then 
we  knocked  them  down  all  over  the  county.     All  clubs  went  down. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  it  true  in  the  Tarn  O'Shanter  case 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  didn't  go  down. 

Mr  Robinson,  that  outside  people  were  taking  a  percentage  { 

Mr  Boyle.  Yes ;  it  is  our  opinion  that  a  syndicate  or  an  outht  was 
operatino-  through  Tam  O'Shanter  Country  Club.  This  fellow  Ryan 
is  suijposed  to  be  Vogel's  fellow.  That  is  why  he  couldn  t  bring  m  the 
books  and  records.  He  had  to  take  a  6  months'  sentence  instead.  He 
was  there  to  protect  the  moneys  that  came  in  through  the  slot  machines 
in  the  Tam  O'Shanter  Club.  ^  ^-i       n 

Mr  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  found  anything  to  support  the  allega- 
tion that  an  effort  was  being  made  to  force  the  sale  of  that  club  to 

^^Mr^^BoYLE.  No.     I  heard  those  stories.     They  started  afterward. 

There  were  a  lot  of  stories  that  started  afterward,  but  that  is  not  tTue. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  had  any  indication  that  machines  have 

been  run  in  from  outside  the  State  ? 

INIv.  Boyle.  No.  j?  , i     m 

J^Ir.  Robinson.  Mr.  Boyle,  do  you  have  any  knowledge  of  the  irans- 

Aiiipricnn  CyO. . 
Mr.  Boyle."  You  mean  did  I  ever  represent  them  ?     Is  that  what 

you  mean? 


158  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  EoBiNsoN.  Either  represent  them  or 

Mr.  RoYLE.  Do  you  mean  you  want  me  to  answer  questions  about 
vvliat  I  did  in  the  private  practice  of  law  before  I  became  State's  attor- 
ney on  December  6,  1948  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  If  you  care  to  give  any  information. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Sure,  I  will  tell  you.  I  sent  for  those  records  today. 
From  October  8, 1946,  to  June  9,  1947, 1  represented  the  Trans- Ameri- 
can Co.  on  civil  matters  only ;  that  is,  corporation  records  in  Delaware, 
corporation  records  that  they  had  to  make  returns  on  in  Sprino-field' 
111.,  and  also  the  drawing  of  some  contracts  that  they  had.  The  only 
]-)erson  I  talked  to  as  I  recall  it  was  a  young  fellow  by  the  name  of 
Burns. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  an  Andrew  Burns? 

Mr.^  Boyle.  I  think  that  is  his  name.  I  haven't  cot  my  file.  I 
haven't  been  able  to  get  it.  I  went  out  of  the  law  business  a  month 
before  I  took  office.    I  have  had  no  law  practice  of  any  kind  since. 

The  Chairman.  When  did  you  take  office  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  December  6, 1948. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  at  any  time  have  the  records  of  that 
company  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  never  did. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  who  had  custody  of  the  records  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  imagine  their  auditor  or  their  office.  I  never  went  to 
their  office.  The  only  time  they  ever  wanted  anything  they  came  to 
my  office.  This  fellow  Burns  would  come  to  my  office  and  bring  papers 
over,  the  necessary  papers  to  fill  out. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  ever  have  any  discussions  with  O'Hara  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  talked  to  O'Hara ;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  secretary  of  the  company. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  whether  he  still  has  the  records  or 
not? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  don't  know  anything  about  them.  They  went  out  of 
business  and  I  never  heard  any  more,  never  saw  them  since  that  day. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  the  dissolution 
of  the  company  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  did  not.  I  think  I  was  through  as  their  lawyer 
before  that  ever  happened. 

The  Chairman.  Tell  us  anything  about  it.  We  are  very,  very  much 
interested  in  that  and  anything  that  you  can  tell  us  about  the  company. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  will.  First  of  all,  there  was  a  contract  drawn  which 
said  if  they  did  business  with  any  person  or  persons  or  any  corpora- 
tion that  was  illegal  or  broke  the  laws  of  any  State,  any  county,  or  any 
citl,  they  would  immediately  cancel  the  contract.  It  is  my  under- 
standing of  this  company  that  they  did  business  with  certain  publi- 
cations, who  in  turn  sold  to  other  persons,  ostensibly  bookmakers,  but 
the  company  itself  never  sold  to  any  bookmakers  that  I  know  of.  I 
have  sme  records  here,  just  a  minute. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  we  get  to  the  nub  of  the  matter  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  can  get  the  file  and  bring  it  in.    I  haven't  much  on  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Here  is  the  thing 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  the  only  person  or  persons  that  I  ever  repre- 
sented in  my  life  that  had  any  connection  with  anything  illegal  or 
any  connection  with  any  of  these  so-called  syndicates  or  persons. 


ORGANIZED    CRIM&   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  159 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Boyle,  in  dealing  with  Burns,  either  Andrew  or 
Pof  Bnrns 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  never  met  Pat  Burns  in  my  life. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  met  Pat  ?  .         ,  •     t    i 

Mr  Boyle  I  met  Andrew  Burns,  and  he  showed  me  his  discharge 
from'the  Marine  Corps.  He  said,  "They  are  saying  a  lot  of  things 
about  me      Here  is  my  honorable  discharge  from  the  Marine  Corps. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  know,  of  course,  the,  shall  we  say  rumor,  about 
Trans-American. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  learn  anything  in  the  course  ot  your  repre- 
sentation which  would  help  this  committee 

Mr.  Boyle.  If  I  did,  I  would  tell  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  separating  the  rumor  from  the  truth,  as  to  who 
actually  owned  Trans-American  and  what  transpired  behind  the 


scenes 


Mr.  Boyle.  I  M'ill  bring  in  niA^  file. 

Mr.  Halley,  I  didn't  know  who  owned  Trans-American,  frankly. 
I  only  knew  the  names  of  the  officers  who  were  listed. 

Mi'.  Halley.  Did  you  have  reason  to  believe,  which  a  lawyer  might 
well  have  and  properly  have,  that  there  were  other  people  m  interest 
whose  name  were  no  divulged  to  you. 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  never  talked  to  me  about  it.  I  never  talked  to 
them.     They  never  came  to  my  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  Andrew  Burns  act  like  the  fellow  who  owned 
the  show  'I 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes;  he  did.  I  will  be  very  frank  with  you.  He  was 
aboveboard  about  it.  He  said  he  worked— I  think  he  told  me  he 
worked  for  some  other  racing  service. 

Mr.  Halley.  Continental,  Ragen's  crowd  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.  He  later  went  out  in  the  business  for  himself  and 
this  was  his  business  and  he  was  handling  it.  I  asked  him  about  any 
hoodlums  or  any  members  of  the  syndicate  involved,  and  he  said  there 
wasn't  any.  That  is  what  he  told  me  at  that  time  and  there  was  no 
reason  why  he  should  lie  to  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  represent  them  at  the  time  Ragen  was  killed? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  represent  them  after  or  before  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes;  starting  on  October  8.  I  understand  Ragen  was 
killed  in  August  of  1948. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wasn't  there  considerable  investigation  by  the  police 
department  of  Trans-American  growing  out  of  the  Ragen  killing? 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  never  came  to  me  about  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  see 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  didn't  represent  them  on  any  case  in  which  the  police 
were  involved.  I  did  not  represent  them  in  any  courtroom  proceeding 
of  any  kind.  It  was  merely  the  making  out  of  these  various  papers 
that  were  necessary,  the  same  as  I  would  with  any  other  corporation. 
At  that  time  I  represented  175  corporations. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  I  have  in  mind,  Mr.  Boyle,  is  whether  some- 
where some  of  the  things  that  at  that  time  might  have  seemed  insignifi- 
cant to  you,  in  the  light  of  what  you  now  know,  might  acquire  signifi- 
cance and  that  you  might  by  searching  your  memory  think  of  some  of 
these  facts  that  would  help  this  committee. 


160  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  would  be  glad  to. 

Mr.  Hallky.  Have  you  ever  seen  the  statement  Ragen  made  to  the 
police  department  here  about  2  weeks  before  he  was  murdered  I 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  have  a  statement  found  in  the  vault  the  othei-  day.  It 
is  on  my  desk  and  I  think  that  is  the  statement  but  I  l)aven"t  seen  it. 
I  haven't  read  it.  I  was  not  in  the  State  attorney's  office  at  that  time. 
I  was  in  the  private  practice  of  law. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  see,  in  that  statement  Ragen  told  the  police 
department  he  expected  to  be  murdered  as  a  result  of  transactions 
growing  out  of  rivalry  between  Trans-American  and  Continental.  In 
fact,  his  position  was  that  an  effort  had  been  made  to  purchase  Con- 
tinental from  him,  and  that  he  was  going  to  be  killed  because  he 
resisted  them.  He  named  certain  members  of  the  Capone  syndicate, 
I  believe,  the  Fischettis,  Accardo,  and  Guzik,  as  people  who  had 
approached  him. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  never  met  those  men.  I  never  met  Accardo,  Guzik, 
or,  who  else,  Fischetti.    I  never  met  them  in  my  life. 

Mr.  Halley.  Of  course  this  committee's  problem  is  to  ascertain 
whether  or  not  those  people  were  active  behind  the  scenes  in  the 
Trans- American  picture. 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  never  appeared  in  my  office,  never  talked  to  me 
on  the  telephone.     I  never  had  anything  to  do  with  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  There  is  nothing  you  know  that  would  help  us  in 
any  way  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Unless  they  were  trying  to  conceal  from  me  the  fact 
that  they  were  interested.    I  don't  know  why  they  would. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  may  be  that  you  just  wouldn't  have  represented 
them  if  they  did. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  probably  w^ould  not. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  instance,  you  didn't  know  the  connection  Trans- 
American  with  the  murder  investigation  of  Ragen,  I  presume? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  read  it  in  the  paper;  yes.  A  man  comes  into  my 
office  to  have  me  represent  him  on  civil  matters.  I  am  in  the  private 
practice  of  law  and  I  represented  him  for  a  period  of  about  9 
months.  The  total  fees  I  received  for  representing  them  over  that 
period  of  time  w^as  $2,500.  In  that  year  I  have  a  record  of  what  I 
made.  I  think  I  made  about  forty  thousand-some-odd  dollars  in  my 
law  business.  By  the  time  I  got  through  paying  my  tax  on  this  I 
probably  made  about  5  or  6  hundred  dollars.  It  was  just  another 
corporation  so  far  as  I  was  concerned. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  w'as  the  date  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  According  to  my  records,  which  I  sent  for  this  noon — 
a  couple  of  fellow^s  asked  me  about  it  out  there,  and  I  said  I  would 
get  my  records — October  8,  1946. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  that  go  back  to  1945  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No,  no.  1946.  Someone  else  had  represented  them. 
I  understand  some  big  law  firm  in  New  York  represented  them  in 
New  York. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  help  them  incorporate  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  I  did  not.    This  was  after  they  were  incorporated. 

June  9,  1947,  is  the  last  time  I  ever  saw  any  of  these  fellows  or 
had  anything  to  do  with  tliem. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  your  file  here  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  161 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  I  have  not.  My  files  are  at  my  house  and  I  will 
get  my  files  for  the  committeee ;  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Yon  never  saw  their  records  at  all? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  didn't  know  whether  they  kept  any  records? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  assumed  that  they  did.  I  didn't  see  them.  I  never 
filed  any  income-tax  returns  for  them  or  anything  at  all.  I  under- 
stood they  had  an  auditor  who  did  that.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  never 
appeared  in  court  for  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  who  their  auditor  was? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  but  my  record  might  show  it.  I  suppose  he  wrote 
letters  giving  me  a  breakdown  for  the  filing  of  the  papers  in  Delaware. 
It  was  a  Delaware  corporation. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.  Every  so  often  under  those  rules  of  the  Delaware 
law  you  must  file  certain  statements  as  to  each  corporation,  and  that 
was  done.  Also  the  secretary  of  state  of  Illinois  insists  that  you  file 
for  a  foreign  corporation,  which  this  was. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  :Mr.  Bernstein  represented 
them  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Bernstein  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  any  capacity. 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  not  at  that  time.  If  he  did,  he  never  told  me 
about  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  the  name  of  Mr.  Samelson? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No.  But  I  will  check  and  let  you  know.  The  name 
meant  nothing  to  me  if  it  wasn't  in  a  letter.  I  didn't  talk  to  any  man 
by  that  name  in  my  life. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  where  we  could  find  Burns  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  I  don't.  I  have  never  seen  him  since  the  last  day 
I  came  down.  I  have  never  seen  him  since.  I  probably  wouldn't  even 
know  him  if  I  saw  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  sort  of  services  did  they  need  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Assistance  in  filing  corporation  papers,  drawing  of 
contracts.  I  will  have  to  get  the  file.  As  I  say,  I  had  other  business 
at  that  time.  In  fact,  I  had  a  pretty  fair  law  practice,  and  probably 
should  have  stayed  in  it.  So  far  as  the  committee  is  concerned,  let  me 
say  that  since  I'have  been  State's  attorney  for  the  county  I  sold  a  six- 
fiat  building  that  I  had  a  half  interest  in,  and  I  got  $11,000  for  it. 
There  was  no  mortgage.  In  addition  to  that  I  had  an  interest  in  a 
subdivision  that  I  acquired  before  I  became  State's  attorney  and  I 
sold  my  interest  in  that,  and  after  paying  the  loan  to  the  bank  I  got 
about  $8,000.  That  in  addition  to  my  salary  has  been  spent,  and,  if 
the  committee  is  interested,  they  can  have  any  books  or  records  I  have. 
You  can  have  my  check  book.  You  can  have  the  key  to  my  safety  de- 
posit box  and  I  will  give  you  a  note  to  go  and  look  in  it.  That  is  the 
way  I  feel  about  this  affair.  I  never  took  a  nickel  in  my  life.  I  want 
to  "make  this  statement  under  oath.  I  have  never  taken  a  nickel  in 
my  life.  I  never  allowed  these  fellows  to  contribute  to  my  campaign. 
I  didn't  take  any  campaign  contributions  from  any  persons  that  I 
thought  had  any  touch  or  any  connection  with  any  syndicate  of  any 
kind  or  any  gamblers  or  any  lawbreakers.  Of  course,  at  that^  time 
maybe  it  was  because  I  was  a  five-to-one  shot  and  they  weren't  too 
interested.    The  Friday  before  election  a  couple  of  those  lawyers  called 


162  ORGANIZED   CRIMD   I:N'    INTERSTATE   COMOVIERCE 

me  up  and  ^Yanted  to  see  me  and  I  said  ''No,''  I  didn't  wish  to  see  them. 
That  was  Brodkin  and  Bieber,  wlio  represent  these  fellows.  I  said 
I  wasn't  interested  and  didn't  want  to  see  them,  that  I  would  rather 
be  defeated  than  to  have  help  from  certain  types  of  peo])le.  I  am  just 
sayinir  that  because  this  thing-  may  be  distorted.  Frankly,  it  was 
just  another  law  suit,  another  corporation. 

jNIr.  Robinson.  My.  Boyle,  this  is  a  question  I  believe  I  asked  the 
mayor.  Do  you  think  that  a  person  can  do  a  very  proper  and  good 
investigatiA-e  job  so  far  as  suppressing  gambling  who  engages  in 
gambling  himself? 

Mr.  BoYLE.  How  do  you  mean  that  ?  If  he  goes  to  the  track  and 
makes  a  bet  or  if  he  bets  on  a  handbook  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let's  take  either  one. 

]Mr.  BoTLE.  Do  you  want  my  personal  opinion? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  he  cannot.  As  State's  attorney,  I  will  not  go  to  a 
race  track  and  I  will  not  make  bets  on  a  handbook,  and  I  have  never  bet 
on  a  horse  since  I  have  been  State's  attorney.  I  will  be  very  frank 
with  you. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  think  that  anyone  who  is  in  investigative 
work,  whether  connected  with  the  police  department  or  with  your 
office,  could  do  a  good  job  if  he  was  engaging  in  gambling  or  wagering 
himself  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  mean  wagering  on  horses  ? 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  would  be  suspect,  yes,  because  frankly  of  these  76 
policemen  that  I  have  in  my  office,  about  65  of  them  are  young  GI's 
who  came  out  of  the  last  war.  Most  of  them  have  had  training  in  the 
Army,  and  they  are  doing  a  pretty  good  job.  If  you  don't  think  it  is 
tough  to  cret  out  and  get  these  slot  machines  without  having  these 
fellows  ofler  by  means  of  bribes,  believe  me  it  is  tough,  because  they 
know  every  time  3'OU  take  a  slot  machine  it  is  going  to  cost  them  about 
$500  including  the  loss  of  the  slot  machines.  I  know  I  have  honest 
men  who  go  out  on  these  jobs  or  I  never  would  have  gotten  this  many 
machines.  I  trust  them  and  I  know  that  they  are  honest  and  capable. 
These  are  policemen  I  am  talking  about.  (Df  course  we  have  other 
investigators  at  work  with  them  who  go  along  with  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  this  group  of  policemen  who  are  assigned  to 
your  office  been  equally  as  energetic  in  suppressing  the  bookmaking 
establishments? 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  have  not  been,  no,  because  I  didn't  feel  that  that 
was  my  job.  I  moved  over  the  line  on  the  slot  machines  and  have 
taken  that  upon  myself.  I  write  letters  to  the  sheriff  on  handbooks. 
Wherever  my  fellows  see  a  handbook  operating,  they  make  a  report. 
I  have  men  working  in  the  county.  They  work  every  afternoon.  No 
one  knows  who  the}'  are,  but  they  send  me  written  reports  of  hand- 
books operating.  1  have  sent  thousands  of  letters  to  the  sheriff  of 
Cock  County  telling  him  about  these  handbooks  operating.  I  have 
sent  letters  to  every  chief  of  police.  If  they  don't  do  anything  about  it 
and  they  are  still  running,  we  indict  the  chief  of  police.  The  sheriff 
at  least  sends  the  report  back. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  it  your  feeling  that  nothing  has  been  done  about 
it? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMEUCE  163 

Mr.  Boyle.  Insofar  as  the  sheriff  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  am  afraid  that  is  true.  He  has  done  some  things; 
yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  there  any  explanation  in  vour  mind  as  to  why  he 
hasn't? 

Mr.  Boyle.  It  could  be  only  a  suspicion  and  I  don't  want  to  give  you 
that. 

The  Chaieman.  You  mean,  Mr.  Boyle,  that  handbooks  are  operating 
out  in  the  county  promiscuously? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Xot  any  more.  We  put  that  Lumber  Gardens  out  of 
business.  Wherever  we  put  pressure  on.  like  in  Cicero,  they  close 
down.  They  move  around.  If  I  start  policing  the  county  and  start 
policing  the  city  of  Chicago,  I  wont  be  able  to  try  the  criminal  cases 
that  I  have  pending  in  the  State's  attorney's  office,  those  that  come  in 
day  after  day.  We  have  about  280  murder  cases.  I  think  we  tried 
188  murder  cases  last  year,  and  they  are  important  cases  to  this  com- 
munity. We  have  sex  cases,  we  have  vicious  rape  cases,  burglaries, 
and  robberies,  and  other  types  of  cases. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Boyle.  I  want  to  ask  you  just  one  or  two  ques- 
tions. There  has  been  some  talk  in  the  paper  about  Mr.  Gilbert. 
What  is  he? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Chief  investigator  of  the  State's  attorney's  office. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  appoint  him  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes ;  I  did. 

The  Chairman.  There  has  been  some  criticism  of  him  having  so 
much  money  or  something.  I  have  an  open  mind  on  the  matter.  I 
don't  Imow  about  it  one  way  or  the  other. 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  appeared  before  the  Chicago  Crime  Connnission 
and  offered  to  bring  in  his  income-tax  returns  for  10  years  and  show 
them  where  he  got  his  money.  He  admits  he  has  some  money  and  says 
that  he  made  it  through  some  public  service  company  of  northern  In- 
diana. I  am  not  sure  of  all  the  facts  connected  with  it.  He  is  also 
a  great  friend  of  Dan  Rice,  the  grain  broker.  He  has  made  money 
with  him.     He  used  to  live  at  the  Blackstone  Hotel. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  your  opinion  about  Mr.  Gilbert  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  he  is  one  of  the  finest  policemen  I  have  ever 
known  in  my  life. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  any  reason  to  doubt  his  integrity  or 
honesty  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Not  since  I  have  been  State's  attorney.  That  is  what 
3^ou  want  to  know. 

The  Chairman.  Yes.  sir. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  told  him  to  go  out  and  get  these  slot  machines  and  he 
hasn't  fumbled  once.  There  haven't  been  any  tip-offs,  and  that  is  im- 
portant on  these  gambling  raids. 

The  Chairman.  You  said  you  didn't  have  any  question  to  doubt 
him  since  you  had  been  State's  attorney. 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  all  I  can  go  by. 

The  Chairman.  You  had  no  contact  with  him  prior  to  that? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes:  I  did  as  assistant  State's  attorney.  I  was  there 
from  1033  to  1939  as  assistant  State's  attorney  for  Cook  County  and 
I  tried  a  lot  of  murder  cases.     He  is  a  verv  efficient  man. 


164  ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IN   INiTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  have  any  reason  to  question  him  prior  to 
tlie  time  you  became  State's  attorney  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No.  First  of  all,  let's  understand  each  other.  He  is 
probably  the  most  efficient  police  officer  and  one  of  the  hardest- working 
police  officers  I  have  ever  known.  When  he  gets  on  a  case  he  works 
day  and  night.  He  works  on  nearly  every  murder  case  we  have  in  the 
office.  He  works  all  night  and  never  stops.  He  is  a  terrific  worker. 
He  has  cracked  several  cases  for  us  which  were  supposed  to  be  impos- 
sible in  these  country  towns.  In  one  case  where  two  police  officers  were 
shot  and  one  was  killed,  he  went  out  ihere  and  took  over  and  solved 
the  case  and  a  man  was  sentenced  to  death. 

The  Chairman.  I  have  seen  it  charged — I  don't  know  whether  in 
the  paper  or  in  one  of  these  articles  that  have  been  written — that  since 
Mr.  Gilbert  has  been  in  there,  there  had  been  no  charge  made  against 
any  of  these  racketeers  like  the  Fischettis  and  what  not ;  that  none  of 
them  had  been  brought  in. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Not  by  our  office. 

The  Chairman.  I  mean  is  there  any  explanation  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  assume  the  police  department  of  Chicago  would  make 
an  arrest  first  of  all. 

The  Chairman.  You  mean  you  don't  operate  in  the  city  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  do  not  because  I  have  confidence  in  the  mayor  of 
Chicago.     I  have  confidence  in  somebody  along  the  line. 

The  Chairman.  I  just  wanted  to  see  the  jurisdiction.  Your  people 
police  all  these  towns  and  suburbs  out  in  the  county  outside  the  city. 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  do  police  them. 

The  Chairman.  It  would  be  your  opinion,  then,  that  it  would  be  just 
because  they  weren't  operating  in  the  county  outside  the  city  if  none 
of  them  had  been  arrested. 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  right.  They  haven't  committed  any  crimes  that 
have  come  to  our  knowledge.  If  they  had,  of  course,  we  would  arrest 
them  and  have  writs  sworn  out  and  have  them  released  afterward. 

The  Chairman.  Mr,  Boyle,  how  much  does  your  position  pay  you  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  $15,000  a  year. 

The  Chairman.  You  are  elected  for  how  long  a  term  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Four  years.  One  thousand  two  hundred  dollars  of  that 
is  paid  by  the  State  of  Illinois.  Every  State's  attorney  in  Illinois  gets 
$1,200  from  the  State. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  a  4-year  term. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.  Then  I  get  $13,800  a  year  from  the  county  of 
Cook.     Of  course,  they  take  deductions  before  they  give  me  my  check. 

The  Chair^ian.  When  you  ran,  did  you  run  with  the  blessing  of  the 
organization  here  or  did  you  buck  them  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No,  I  ran  with  their  blessing  for  the  first  time  in  my 
life. 

The  Chairman.  We  were  talking  some  time  back  that  you  had  run 
two  or  three  times,  something  once  before.    What  was  that? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Well,  that  goes  away  back.  In  1028  I  ran  for  State 
representative  as  an  indejiendent  and  I  was  defeated.  In  1939  I  ran  for 
alderman  of  the  sixteenth  w^ard  in  Chicago  against  the  organization. 
The  regular  organization  man  was  ward  committeeman  and  Demo- 
cratic alderman,  had  been  there  for  21  years,  and  I  defeated  him.  In 
1940  I  ran  against  him  for  committeeman  and  I  was  defeated  by  about 
600  votes  out  of  26,000.    In  1942  I  handled  Paul  Douglas'  campaign 


ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COiVIMEECE  165 

as  an  independent  candidate  for  the  United  States  Senate.  I  was  still 
in  the  city  council  at  that  time.  After  1U43  1  dropped  completely  out 
of  politics  and  went  into  the  practice  of  the  law  and  stayed  there  until 
out  of  a  clear  sky  they  asked  me  to  run  for  State's  attorney  ot  Cook 
County.    I  say  I  was  surprised  and  that  is  the  truth. 

The  Chaikmax.  In  the  private  practice  were  you  with  a  firm? 

Mr.  BoTLE.  No,  I  was  by  myself.  I  had  other  lawyers  working  for 
me.  I  had  a  list  of  my  earnings  here  for  those  years.  I  ran  over  $40,000 
each  year  prior  to  mV  taking^the  othce  of  State's  attorney. 

The  CiiAraMAN.  During  tliose  last  few  days  in  your  race  for  State's 
attorney  there  were  some  people  who  called  you  representing  these 
gang  elements  ^ 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  assume  they  represented  them  because  they  do  repre- 
sent them  in  court  and  have  for  many  years. 

The  Chau^man.  They  called  you  on  the  telephone  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes,  and  wanted  to  come  over  to  see  me  and  I  said  I  didn't 
want  to  see  them. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  know  what  they  wanted  to  see  you  about  ^ 

]\lr.  Boyle.  They  wanted  to  make  a  donation  to  my  campaign.  I 
said  "No,"  I  wasn't  interested. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  state  their  names? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Lawyers  by  the  name  of  Brodkin  &  Bieber. 

The  Chairman. "Who  did  they  represent? 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  represented  for  sometime  the  so-called  syndicate 
fellows  in  the  courts  and  gambling  cases. 

The  Chairman.  You  mean  Capone  and  (luzik  and  Fischettis  and 
that  outfit  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  I  know  we  all  get  a  lot  of  anonymous  letters.  I  got 
one  here  and  I  don't  know  what  to  do  with  it.  I  thought  I  would  read 
it  for  the  record  and  turn  it  over  to  you  or  somebody  if  it  would  be  of 
any  help  to  you.  I  think  it  came  in  this  envelope,  October  2,  which  is 
here. 

Jack  (Jake)  Guzik  and  Charles  Fischetti  ordered  Lt.  Bill  Drury  killed.  Giizik 
sent  word  to  his  North  Side  triggermen  Dominic  Nnccio  and  two  other  Dominies 
(called  the  three  Doms)  and  Nuccio  supplied  three  shotguns  and  .45  caliber  pistol 
for  job.  After  killing,  killers  returned  to  Nuccio's  saloon  and  hid  guns.  Every- 
one knows  the  Doms'  last  names.  Now  go  and  get  them  lined  up  for  electric 
chair.     They  have  good,  crooked  lawyers  known  as  BB  boys. 

That  has  been  handled  around  here.  .1  don't  know  whether  there 
are  any  fingerprints  on  it  or  not. 

I  wanted  to  ask  you  about  the  Drury  murders.  I  don't  suppose 
there  is  anything  we  can  do,  but  if  you  have  any  suggestions  about 
anything  that  we  can  do  to  help  we  would  be  very  glad  to  have  it. 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  have  been  working  on  the  thing,  as  you  probably 
know.  I  talked  to  Ricca,  Campagna,  and  Gioe  and  we  did  get  some 
answers  from  them  because  they  had  to  answer  us.  Of  course,  they 
have  airtight  alibis  for  the  night  of  the  killing. 

Mr.  Kerxer.  I  think  the  committee  should  probably  know  that  I 
wrote  a  letter  to  Mr.  Boyle 

Mr.  BoYLE.  Yes. 

Mr.  Kerner.  Informing  him  if  he  did  find  anything  in  the  nature 
of  a  Federal  violation  in  either  of  these  two  killings,  if  he  would  in- 
form our  office  we  would  try  to  get  the  officers  of  the  Federal  Govern- 


166  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IX   IX^TERSTATE    COMIIVEERCE 

ment  in  the  matter  to  assist  in  findincr  tlie  killers.     That  was  with  the 
wish  of  the  Attorney  General  of  the  United  States. 

The  Chairman.  I  might  say  that  I  called  and  then  sent  a  telegram 
and  a  letter  to  the  Attorney  General  also.  I  got  a  letter  back  from 
Howard  McGrath  that  if  we  found  any  connection  at  all,  they  would 
be  glad  to  have  our  report  and  would  take  the  matter  up  for  appropri- 
ate action.  fLL 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Boyle,  did  you  take  a  statement  from  an  accoimt- 
ant  named  Brantman  ? 
Mr.  Boyle.  I  did. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  that  relate  to  a  certain  alleged  activity  of  an 
attorney  representing  Drury^ 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  right.     Do  you  want  me  to  tell  you  about  it? 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  his  name  first. 

Mr.  Boyle.  His  name  was  Louis  Kutner. 

Mr  Halley.  Will  you  tell  the  committee  about  the  statement  you 
took  from  Brantman? 

Mr.  BoYM.  Do  you  want  to  tell  me  fii-st  of  all  that  I  got  some  in- 
formation that  Kutner  knew  something  about  Drury's  case«  He 
was  Drury's  and  Connelly's  lawyer.  So  I  called  him  up  and  told 
him  I  wanted  to  talk  to  him.  I  said  I  want  to  talk  to  you.  He  came 
out  to  my  office  and  told  me  a  story  that  he  represented  a  fellow  by  the 
naine  of  Russell  and  that  Russell  later  denied  that  he  represented  him. 
So  1  asked  him  if  Mr.  Drui-y  was  working  with  him  on  the  Russell 
matter  and  he  said  no,  he  was  not.  He  told  about  having  contacted 
Mr.  Halley  and  he  was  supposed  to  surrender  to  Mr.  Halley  and  he 
got  a  subpena  from  you.  I  asked  him  how  he  came  to  represent  Rus- 
sell, and  it  was  rather  a  vague  story.  He  finally  gave  me  the  name  of 
Brantman,  an  auditor.  I  got  hold  of  Brantman  and  had  him  come 
out  to  my  office  and  I  took  a  statement  from  Brantman.  Brantman's 
story  was  that  he  represented  Russell  as  an  accountant.  He  also  rep- 
resented Ralph  Capone.  The  other  day  I  asked  Ricca  and  Campagna 
it  they  knew  him,  and  Campagna  said  he  did  some  work  for  him  and 
also  did  some  work  for  Gioe.  I  asked  Gioe.,  and  he  admitted  some 
years  ago  he  did  some  income-tax  work  for  him.  Brantman  said  that 
Kutner  called  him  and  told  him  he  could  lielp  his  client,  Russell 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  give  the  full  details  ? 
.  ^'^y-  ^OYLE-  Then  Brantman  said  he  would  like  to  meet  with  Kutner 
in  his  office  and  would  bring  Russell  with  him.  So  Russell  went  over 
there  and  met  with  Kutner  and  Brantman.  I  asked  Brantman  what 
the  conversation  was  about  and  he  said  Kutner  told  him  he  could  help 
him  that  innocuous  questions  would  be  asked  and  he  would  be  let  go 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  this  conversation  occur « 
^.^nnf??^^'"'  P'  ^'^J^^^:'^  0^^^-     Brantman  said  Kutner  wanted  a 
Sn  Ann  "^  addition  to  that  he  wanted  between  $25,000  and 

<pO0,00U. 

When  Kutner  did  come  to  my  office  he  wanted  police  protection  He 
said  he  wanted  police  protection.  We  have  six  of  our  policemen,  who 
could  be  doing  other  work,  guarding  him. 

Mr.  Halley   Did  Brantman  tell  you  any  more  about  Kutner's 
relations  with  Russell  ? 
^^^^•.^OYLE.  He  said  that  Kutner— do  you  want  me  to  tell  you  all 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   IXTERSTATE    COMMERCE  167 

Mr.  Halley.  Absolutely.  I  xN-oiild  like  to  have  a  copy  of  the  state- 
Mr.  Boyle.  I  will  give  you  a  copy  of  both  statements.^  He  said  that 
Kiitner  presumably  was  talking  on  the  phone  to  the  Senator  m  tlie 
office  putting  on  an  act  for  Mr.  Russell,  that  he  would  surrender  Mr. 
Russell  and  he  wanted  a  subpena  and  the  subpena  would  be  sent  to 
the  office ;  that  later  on  Russell  refused  to  accept  the  subpena  and  said 
he  didn't  want  Kutner  to  represent  him  any  longer,  and  about  a  month 
later  Brantman  got  a  call  from  Russell  and  he  said  to  Brantman, 
"What  is  the  idea  of  bringing  me  to  Kutner  \  He  is  heating  me  up 
with  the  committee  and  all  over  the  country  and  I  never  did  any  harai 
to  him.  I  never  even  hired  him.  He  is  not  my  lawyer  and  why  is  he 
te]ling  these  stories  about  me,  trying  to  put  me  in  jail  ?" 

Brantman  said  at  that  time  he  was  a  little  tough  about  it,  that  Rus- 
sell was  very  put  out  about  Kutner's  activity  against  Russell,  whom  he 
no  longer  represented. 

That  is  the  substance  of  the  statement. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  When  the  Drury  killing  came  along,  Kutner  seemed  to 
feel  that  he  also  was  in  jeopardy.  , 

Mr.  BoYLE.  Yes.  He  has  six  policemen  assigiied  to  him  from  my 
office  now,  on  three  shifts.  He  was  very  excited  and  he  talked  to  some 
+"riend  of  his  and  they  said,  "You  had  better  be  careful."  He  talks  at 
length,  quite  a  gabby  fellow.     He  goes  into  flights  of  fancy  about  how 

wonderful  he  is.  ■    i  ■   •  i     i   i    x 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  have  any  information  about  any  individual  tliat 
Drury  might  have  been  ready  to  give  evidence  about  or  to  bring  in  to 
testify  % 

Mr.  Boyle.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Any  new  name  in  the  picture  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No.  If  he  did,  I  will  get  the  statement  and  give  you  the 
statement.  It  is  a  complete  question  and  answer  statement  of  both  of 
them.     It  should  help  you.  .       .  n         ^,  • 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  does  the  Drury  investigation  stand  at  this 

time?  „    ,  .  ,        , 

Mr  Boyle.  Lt.  Andrew  Aiken,  the  chief  of  detectives,  has  been 
working  on  it  day  and  night,  I  know  that.  He  has  fifty-some  police- 
men assigned  to  the  Drury  killing.  Our  office  has  been  working  on  it. 
I  have  men  assigned  to  the  Drury  case.  There  is  an  investigator  out 
here  now  down  in  Indiana  about  some  fellow  who  was  shot  clown  there, 
a  former  inmate  of  Michigan  State  Penitentiary,  who  was  a  former 
cellmate  of  Yaros  or  Petry  when  originally  arrested.  He  went  down 
there  to  get  some  bullets  and  ballistics  going  back  to  the  old  Ragen  case. 
They  think  maybe  some  connection  there  is  possible.  I  don  t  know 
what  Mr.  Drury  had  been  doing  lately,  except  that  Kutner  did  tell 
me  he  had  o-iven  a  lot  of  information  down  in  Florida.  I  took  a  state- 
ment from'^Connelly  also.  Connelly  told  me  that  Drury  m  Florida 
would  point  out  these  hoodlums,  these  known  gangsters,  who  woulcl 
come  down  to  Florida  and  was  working  with  a  man  on  the  Miami 
News,  is  it  ? 

The  Chairman.  A  boy  named  Petit. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Petit,  that  is  right.  He  gave  Petit  a  lot  of  information 
about  these  fellows.  He  would  go  into  night  clubs  and  restaurants 
and  look  around  and  find  certain  fellows  and  give  that  information  to 
Petit      Connelly  seemed  to  think  that  that  might  have  had  something 


168  ORGANIZED    CRIME;   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

to  do  with  his  killing.  He  mentioned  some  people  in  St.  Paul.  The 
name  was  Terhune.  I  wnll  give  you  that  statement  also.  He  also 
mentioned  a  group  in  St.  Louis  called  the  Rocky  Gang,  some  name 
like  that,  and  he  gave  me  their  names.  He  mentioned  a  group  in 
Cleveland.  He  gave  me  three  names  in  Cleveland  of  fellows  that 
Drury  had  been  exposing  to  this  new^spaper.  He  said  he  also  worked 
with  this  fellow  Velie  on  Collier's  magazine. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  confront  Kutner  with  Brantman's 
charges? 

Mr.  BoYi.E.  No ;  I  never  had  an  opportunity,  but  I  will. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  it  interfere  with  your  investigation  if  he  were 
confronted  with  those  charges  here? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  not  a  bit.  I  think  he  should  be  confronted  here. 
I  will  liave  those  over  today  if  you  want  them,  those  statements. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Anything  else? 

The  Chairman.  I  was  just  going  to  say  in  connection  with  this  we 
appreciate  your  telegram.  We  sent  you  a  telegram,  and  I  told  Mr. 
Robinson  to  write  in  more  detail.  The  only  thing  we  had  on  Drury 
was  that  he  had  written  us  about  employment,  which  had  not  worked 
out.    We  had  some  exchange  of  letters. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Most  of  this  information  that  Bill  Drury  had,  unless 
it  Avas  something  developed  lately,  liad  been  printed.  This  fellow 
Connelly  told  me  he  worked  with  Leyton  Mortimer  and  he  was  going 
to  work  with  him  on  a  new  book  about  Florida,  something  along  those 
lines. 

The  Chairman.  As  you  found  out,  he  furnished  a  good  deal  of  in- 
formation to  the  Cox  Newspapers,  and  this  chap  F'etit — I  don't  know 
whether  Mr.  Drury  knew  of  it  or  not,  but  I  assume  he  did — passed  on  to 
us  a  memorandum  that  Di-ury  had  furnished  to  him.  From  time  to 
time  a  chap,  Lowery,  in  Washington,  would  pass  on  to  me  informa- 
tion, something  that  had  come  from  Drury,  about  things  in  Florida 
and  otherwise.     That  is  the  whole  connection  with  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  As  you  know,  about  two  or  two  and  a  half  weeks  before 
the  murder,  Kutner  wrote  a  letter  to  the  committee,  addressed  I  be- 
lieve to  me,  saying  that  he  wanted  to  bring  Drury  and  Connelly  l)efore  • 
the  committee  to  testify,  that  they  were  his  clients  and  he  wanted  to 
produce  them. 

]\Ir.  Boyle.  He  told  me  the  reason  he  wanted  a  subpena  was  to  pro- 
tect Drury,  not  Connelly.  He  wanted  a  subpena  to  protect  Drury 
and  he  wanted  a  subpena  for  himself.  Then  they  would  be  under 
the  protection  of  this  committee.     That  is  wdiat  he  told  me.  , 

Mr.  Halley.  I  thought  you  had  the  full  facts,  but  for  your  infor- 
mation these  are  the  facts  as  I  understand  them,  and  George  Robinson 
may  have  certain  additional  information.  Kutner  wrote  such  a  let- 
ter, but  not  asking  for  a  subpena,  simply  saying,  as  I  recall  the  letter, 
that 

The  Chairman.  Do  we  have  the  letter? 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  don't  recall  the  letter. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  letter  may  be  in  Washington. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  get  a  copy  of  it  and  give  it  to  Mr.  Boyle. 

Mr.  Halley.  Kutner  will  have  it,  offering  to  ]n'oduce  two  people  to 
testify.  The  letter  was  not  acknowledged  in  writing  for  reasons  con- 
nected with  the  fact  that  certain  intimations  of  the  Brantman  matter 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  169 

had  come  to  my  attention,  but  when  I  visited  Chicago  I  asked  Mr.  Rob- 
inson to  get  ill  touch  with  Kutner.  Kutner  had  been  telephoning  all 
day  to  reach  me  in  Chicago.  I  did  not  speak  to  him  but  asked  ^Nlr.  Rob- 
inson on  my  departure  to  call  Kutner.  Mr.  Robinson  was  in  the 
process  of  getting  in  touch  with  ]SIr.  Kutner  when  the  murder  oc- 
curred. Whether  there  is  any  connection  between  the  desire  of  Kutner 
to  bring  Drury  and  Connelly  in  as  witnesses  and  the  murder,  I  have 
no  way  of  knowing. 

The"  Chairman.  I  thought  you  called. 

IVIr.  Halley.  George  will  bring  it  up  to  date  now\ 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  did  call  Kutner,  the  sole  purpose  being  to  tell 
him  that  you  had  been  unable  to  call  him  and  that  I  would  like  to 
talk  to  Drury.  I  told  him  that  I  would  call  Drury  since  I  had 
Drury 's  numlWr.  and  arrange  for  some  time  to  interview  him. 

jNIr.  B0YT.E.  You  told  me  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  called  Drury's  house.  I  didn't  reach  him  but 
reached  his  wife.  He  was  to  call  back  at  7 :  30.  I  think  I  passed  on 
that  information  to  you.  Kutner  called  me  back  later  at  night,  and 
that  is  the  first  time  I  heard  about  his  asking  for  protection. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  hadn't  asked  for  a  subpena.  He  simply  said  he 
wanted  to  arrange  to  bring  them  in  to  give  their  testimony  to  the 
committee. 

The  Chairman.  Did  he  ask  you  for  a  subpena  for  protection  ? 

I^Ir.  Robinson.  Xot  until  after  the  Drury  killing. 

The  Chairman.  He  wanted  one  himself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  was  talking  mostly  about  Connelly.  I  didn't 
get  the  indication  that  he  wanted  one  for  himself,  although  he  was 
a  little  concerned. 

The  Chairman.  Yes;  he  did  want  one  for  himself.  This  happened 
the  following  day.  It  adds  to  the  mystery  and  what  not.  Lester 
Velie  called  me  from  New  York  rather  frantically  saying  that  he  had 
been  in  touch  with  Kutner.  and  Kutner  was  in  a  terrible  shape,  locked 
in  his  office  and  afraid  to  get  out. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  had  to  send  a  policeman  down  to  take  him  out. 

The  Chairman.  He  asked  if  there  was  anything  I  can  do.  I  said, 
"I  don't  know  a  thing  in  the  world  I  can  do."  He  said,  "I  think  he 
was  trying  to  help  you  fellows  and  you  ought  to  do  something  to  help 

So  Lester  gave  his  telephone  number,  and  said,  "If  you  get  a  Federal 
subpena  served  on  him  to  appear  before  your  committee,  at  least  that 
might  scare  somebody  olf,  that  the  Federal  Government  would  have 
iunsdiction.    Would  you  call  him  up?"  n      n 

I  thought  just  to  get  what  information  he  might  have  1  would  call 
him  up.  ^So  I  called  him  on  the  telephone  and  he  said  he  was  scared 
to  death.    He  had  been  in  his  office  and  afraid  to  get  out. 

I  said,  "Well,  I  have  a  subpena  written  out  right  here,  and  I  will 
read  it  to  you."  . 

He  said,  "Don't  read  it  to  me.    I  will  accept  it  quick. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  don't  know  whether  he  was  frightened  or  was  a 

publicitv  seeker.  .  .,  i  •.     n  ^ 

The  Chairman.  I  said,  "I  must  read  it  to  you,    so  1  read  it  all  to 
him  and  made  a  notation  on  the  back,  "Served  by  having  read  it. 
Meantime  somebody  had  been  in  touch  with  you,  George,  to  go  over 

68958— 51— pt.  5 12 


170  ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

and  actually  serve  one  on  him,  which  I  think  was  done.  I  asked  him 
as  of  that  time  what  he  could  tell  me  about  the  matter  and  he  couldn't 
tell  me  anythino-  on  the  telephone.  I  asked  him  to  tell  Mr.  Kobinson 
or  you  anythintj-  he  had  to  tell  so  we  could  help  get  the  matter  solved. 

Air.  Boyle.  May  I  say  something  off  the  record. 

The  Chairman.  Off  the  record. 

(Off  the  record.) 

Mr.  White.  I  have  one  technical  question,  Mr.  Boyle.  I  am  told 
that  Drury  was  shot  not  only  with  a  shotgun,  but  four  .45  slugs  pierced 
his  head  in  a  row  right  across  through  his  forehead;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  not  my  understanding.  He  was  shot  witli  a 
shotgun,  one  .4.5  slug  was  in  the  ceiling  of  the  garage,  and  the  other 
.45  slug  went  through  the  hood  of  the  car.  They  cut  that  out  and  got 
the  smashed  bullet.  The  things  that  actually  killed  him  were  these 
three  shotgun  blasts,  four  blasts,  right  across  the  windshield. 

Mr.  White.  You  mean  buckshot  pellets  that  pierced  the  windshield 
or  four  separate  blasts  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Four  separate  blasts  that  made  holes  about  this  big 
around,  about  an  inch  in  diameter,  right  in  a  line,  the  four  of  them 
right  through  a  windshield  one  after  the  other.  You  know  these  leaden 
pellets  you  have  in  the  shotgun.  The  shotgun  is  what  killed  him,  and 
not  the  .45,  as  I  understand  it. 

Mr.  White.  I  may  be  incorrectly  informed,  but  I  suggest  in  case 
this  other  story  is  correct  that  there  were  four  .45  slugs  in  his  forehead, 
in  a  direct  line  and  closely  spaced,  it  would  seem  improbable  that  those 
could  have  been  made  by  someone  firing  an  automatic  pistol,  but  more 
likely  they  would  be  made  by  someone  firing  a  machine  gun,  which  of 
course  first  is  the  same  as  a  .45  pistol.  If  it  had  been  a  machine  gun 
it  w^ould  be  a  very  material  point.  The  Federal  Government  would 
have  some  jurisdiction  because  it  would  be  assumed  that  the  machine 
gun  was  not  a  licensed  one,  and,  secondly,  it  would  show  a  greater 
gang  influence  than  perhaps  a  pistol  would.  People  who  carry  ma- 
chine guns  are  more  closely  connected  with  organized  crime  than 
people  who  carry  .45's. 

Mr.  BoYi.E.  Shotguns  can  be  a  pretty  good  weapon  too. 

]Mr.  White.  Yes.    I  understand  two  weapons  were  used,  in  any  case. 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  theory  of  the  police,  of  Andy  Aiken,  from  talking 
to  him,  is  that  the  shots  from  the  .45's  were  used  to  keep  him  in  the 
car,  in  other  words,  to  drive  him  in  his  corner  where  the  fellow  had 
the  shotgun.    That  is  their  theory. 

Mr.  White.  I  suggest  if  there  were  four  .45  holes,  it  would  merit 
inquiry  as  to  whether  it  was  a  machine  gun  or  an  automatic.  If  it  was 
a  machine  gun  I  think  it  would  be  worth  inquiring  into. 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  slugs  could  have  been  from  a  machine  gun.  They 
were.  45  slugs. 

Mr.  White.  No  one  saw  the  gun,  of  course.  Since  both  guns  used 
the  same  cartridge 

Mr.  Boyle.  Frankly  I  thought  I  got  a  break.  A  fellow  called  the 
Tribune  and  said  he  wanted  to  talk  to  me  about  the  killing,  the  vice 
president  of  an  insurance  company.  He  was  walking  about  a  block 
from  the  scene  of  the  killing,  and  he  heard  the  five  explosions  and 
about  5  minutes  to  7  a  man  got  in  a  car  at  the  curb  and  drove  off  north 
on  Lincoln  Avenue,  which  is  about  a  block  away,  and  as  he  did  a  street- 
car hit  him  and  his  car  caught  on  the  front  step  of  the  streetcar.    The 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   IMTERSTATE    COMMERCE  171 

thing  that  attracted  this  man's  attention  was  that  he  tried  to  get  away 
by  swinging  the  wheel  and  gunning  the  car  and  finally  he  broke  the 
step  of  the  streetcar  off  and  got  away.  The  streetcar  got  the  license 
number  and  it  developed  he  had  been  in  a  tavern  at  that  point  drinking 
all  afternoon  and  didn't  even  remember  the  accident.  We  thought 
we  had  a  red-hot  lead  and  worked  a  couple  of  days  on  that.  Of  course 
you  run  into  a  blind  alley  in  all  cases  of  tliis  type,  but  we  thought  we 
had  something. 

The  Chair:man.  Do  you  think  the  possibility  of  his  appearance 
before  our  committee  or  that  he  was  going  to  talk  before  our  committee 
is  any  clue  or  is  that  just  1  of  15  or  20  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  one  of  many.  The  question  is :  Did  he  know 
anything  other  than  that  which  has  been  printed  in  the  newspapers  ? 

The  Chairman.  Of  course  in' that  connection  they  might  have  at- 
tached a  little  more  significance  to  his  coming  before  a  committee  and 
just  telling  the  Herald  American  or  the  Cox  newspapers  or  Lester 
Velie  or  Lee  Mortimer  about  something. 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  true.  Of  course  these  names  that  Connelly 
gave  me  are  names  that  he  had  dug  up,  having  records  in  connection 
with  these  outfits.  These  men  that  Drury  exposed  in  Cleveland,  in 
St.  Paul,  in  St.  Louis,  and  spots  like  that,  so-called  respectable  citizens 
up  to  that  time,  may  have  had  something  to  do  with  it.  That  is  a 
theory,  of  course. 

Mr.  White.  Does  Connelly  feel  that  this  association  with  Drury  in 
any  manner  now  puts  him  in  a  precarious  position  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  has  a  police  card.  He  hold  me  he  didn't  care  wheth- 
er he  had  it  or  not.  They  told  me  he  sat  in  a  tavern  waiting  for  the 
police  car  to  come  over  and  pick  him  up.  Connelly  said  he  didn't 
know  what  Drury  was  doing  in  Florida  except  what  Drury  told  him. 
He  didn't  know  anything  about  these  other  places  except  what  Drury 
told  him.  I  don't  know  whether  Connelly  is  telling  the  truth  or  not. 
He  said  he  didn't  see  Drury  the  afternoon  of  the  killing.  He  talked 
to  him  that  night,  and  it  developed  he  was  in  Kutner's  office  with  him 
that  afternoon. 

The  Chairman.  We  are  going  to  have  Mr.  Connelly  up  here.  Are 
there  any  particular  questions  that  you  would  like  to  have  us  ask  him, 
or  any  other  witness  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  might  fiiid  out  what  Mr.  Connelly  has  been  doing 
for  the  last  several  months.  I  suppose  you  have  read  in  the  papers  that 
his  income  is  $94  a  month,  a  police  pension.  The  day  of  the  killing 
he  bought  a  new  Oldsmobile  car.  He  is  paying  $100  a  month  on  the 
car.  His  rent  is  $40  a  month.  He  has  to  live,  as  well.  When  you  ask 
him,  or  try  to  pin  him  down  as  to  where  he  is  going  to  get  the  money 
for  all  these  things,  he  says,  "Oh,  well,  I  expect  to  get  a  job." 

Mr.  Halley.  Drury  was  in  about  the  same  shape,  wasn't  he? 

Mr.  Boyle.  At  least  Drury  had  some  money  in  his  box.  He  had 
$G00  in  his  pocket,  and  $1,000  in  a  box,  and  he  had  some  stocks  and 
some  bonds. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  there  any  truth  to  the  story  that  a  man  walked 
into  the  Cadillac  Co.  with  him,  and  Drury  turned  in  his  old  car  and 
the  man  paid  $2,000  in  cash  for  a  new  one  for  him  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  statement  was  supposed  to  have  been  obtained  by 
a  Daily  Xews  reporter.  They  tell  me  at  the  Daily  News  that  they 
are  willino^  to  make  an  affidavit  that  he  told  him  that,  but  now  he  has 


172  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   mfTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

cliiin<>:ed  liis  story  and  it  isn't  true,  that  the  fellow  didn't  come  up 
with  $2,000.  Of  course,  I  asked  him  where  he  got  his  1950  Cadillac, 
and  he  said  "Denemark.""  This  fellow  Gioe  bought  his  at  Denemark's. 
Cani})iigna  for  the  first  time  in  his  life  bought  one  at  Joe  Bergl's  in- 
stead of  Denemark's,  but  he  always  did  business  with  Denenuirk  be- 
fore, I  don't  know  wliat  significance  that  has  in  the  case,  but  these 
fellows  evidently  did  business  with  Denemark  when  they  purchased 
their  cars. 

The  Chairm  x.  Mr.  Boyle,  have  any  political  elforts  been  atteaupted 
to  be  used  on  you  in  connection  with  the  prosecution  or  nonprosecu- 
tion  of  any  cases  ^ 

Mr.  Boyle.  Never,  believe  me,  never.  It  wouldn't  make  any  diifer- 
ence  if  they  tried,  but  no  one  ever  has  tried. 

The  Chairman.  That  goes  for  the  force  that  is  working  under  you, 
so  far  as  you  know  '. 

Mr.  BoVle.  Oh,  yes.  If  I  tell  them  to  do  something,  I  expect  it  to 
be  done.    So  far,  those  orders  have  been  carried  out. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else,  gentlemen '. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  have  about  four  questions  I  would  like  to  ask. 

How  long  has  Mr.  Gilbert  been  investigator  for  the  State's  attor- 
ney's office  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Eighteen  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  what  he  did  ]3rior  to  that  time? 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  was  captain  of  police,  supervising  captain  of  police. 
At  that  time  they  had  districts  where  tliey  had  supervising  captains. 
They  would  have  probably  10  police  captains  under  them,  a  sort  of 
deputy  commissioner. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  wliat  he  did  prior  to  his  position  with 
the  police  force? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No,  except  what  I  have  i-ead  in  the  newspapers.  He 
worked  for  some  union  as  a  business  agent,  or  something.  That  is( 
what  I  heard. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  anything  about  where  he  got  his 
money  'l 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  he  engages  in  any 
gambling  activities  personally? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No;  I  do  not,  except  perhaps  betting  on  elections. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Do  you  mean  does  he  bet  the  horses  ?  Is  that  what  you 
mean  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  never  knew  of  him  to  bet  the  horses.  He  never  told  me 
that,  and  I  don't  know  of  anybody  who  ever  said  so. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  hear  of  any  testimony  or  allegation  that 
a  Tubb  was  getting  about  $2,000  a  month  from  racketeers? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  was  in  the  Tribune. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  that  supposed  to  be  Tubby  Joseph  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  asked  him  about  that,  and  he  denies  that  that  ever 
was  him,  that  he  ever  got  any  money.    He  has  been  called  Tubby. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  say  he  was  going  to  sue  the  Tribune  for  libel, 
or  anything  like  that? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  he  did  not.  We  don't  have  many  libel  suits  in  Chi- 
cago. 


ORGANIZED    CRIM&   IN   INfTERSTATE    COMMERCE  173 

The  Chairman.  You  have  complete  freedom  of  the  press? 

Mr.  Boyi.E.  Complete  freedom  of  the  press,  believe  me. 

(Discussionoff  the  record.) 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Boyle,  we  appreciate  very  much  your  coming. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  would  like  to  put  this  in  the  record ;  and,  if  you  have 
anv  objections,  sav  so,  and  I  won't  do  it.  I  would  like  to  put  in  mv 
earnings  as  a  lawyer  prior  to  becoming  State's  attorney  of  Cook 

County,  if  you  don't  mind.  ^.^    ^. , 

1943,  fees  amounted  to  $40,629.01.     1944,  $42,946.32.     1945,  $44,- 

981.19.    1946,  $34,776.16. 

]SIr.  Halley.  Is  that  gross  fees  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Those  are  gross  fees. 

The  Chairman.  About  how  much  did  your  expenses  run  i 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  don"t  know.  I  suppose  I  cleared  about  $20,000  or 
$25,000.  ^     ^   ^ 

The  Chairman.  How  old  are  you,  Mr.  Boyle  i 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  am  48.  ^        r^  ^      -,         i     ^  o 

The  Chairman.  You  are  a  Northwestern  Law  School  graduate  i 
Mr.  Boyle.  No.    De  Paul  University. 
In  1947,  $40,232.71;  and  in  1948,  the  least  year,  for  11  months, 

$44,041.45.         '  ,    .  n  .•       .1    ^ 

The  Chairman.  I  will  tell  you,  that  brings  up  the  question  that  a 
lot  of  people  ask  me,  not  bragging.  I  made  a  little  more  practicing 
law  back  in  the  thirties  than  I  make  now  in  the  Senate.  They  ask 
me  why  I  <Tave  up  law  practice  to  get  into  politics.  I  am  always  hard 
pressed  ior  an  answer.    So,  might  I  ask  you,  what  did  you  quit  all  this 

°Mr  Boyle.  First  of  all,  it  is  the  ego  of  the  man,  perhaps.  Perhaps, 
another  thing,  I  probably  hoped  to  be  State's  attorney  of  Cook  County 
someday,  but  never  thought  that  I  ever  would  be.  So,  I  am  trying 
to  do  a  o-ood  job,  and  I  think  we  owe  something  to  the  community  m 
which  we  live',  and  we  owe  something  to  the  people  with  whom  we  live. 
Sure,  you  make  a  sacrifice  when  you  take  public  office.  Perhaps  we 
like  tlie  things  that  go  with  the  office,  recognition  m  the  community 
and  all  that  sort  of  thing. 

The  Chairman.  The  nice  part,  the  grandchildren  have  something 

to  talk  about.  ,  o       ,  -i 

Mr.  Boyle.  The  grandchildren  will  talk  about  you,  Senator,  and 

be  very  proud  of  you. 

The'  only  reason  I  put  this  in  was  to  show  you  that  any  moneys  1 
received  from  the  Trans-American  outfit  were  very  nominal,  because 
after  I  paid  my  taxes  I  had  nothing  left,  frankly.  That  is  the  only 
company  that  1  have  ever  represented  in  my  life,  or  any  persons,  that 
ever  had  any  tinge  of  any  kind,  believe  me.  ,  •       .     .i 

The  Chairman.  Did  they  have  another  lawyer  working  lor  them  at 
that  time  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Not  that  I  know.  -pi 

The  Chairman.  Somebody  on  taxes,  or  something  ot  that  sort  i 

:Mr.  Boyle.  They  may  have.    I  didn't  know  anything  about  it. 

The  Chairman.  *  Did  you  get  up  their  tax  returns  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  did  not. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  who  did  that  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No. 


174  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   EST   ITS'iTE ESTATE   COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  You  just  handled  their  corporate  papers,  and  what 
not? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  ri^ht;  that  is  all  it  was,  frankly,  and  contracts. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  writing:  up  these  contracts,  did  you  ever  deal  with 
anybody  on  the  other  side,  the  people  that  they  were  contracting 
with  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes ;  several  times  they  would  come  in  and  sign  a  con- 
tract, persons  who  would  have  some  publishing  company. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wliat  -sort  of  people  were  they  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Pretty  high-class-looking  people. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  remember  any  of  the  names,  or  would  your 
records  show  you  who  they  were  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  so.  Somebody  from  Kentucky  and  somebody 
from  some  other  places.    This  outfit  folded  up. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  basic  problem  is  to  find  out  who  is  behind  it. 
Everybody,  I  might  say,  including  your  police  commissioner,  seems 
to  feel  that  there  was  somebody  behind  that  Trans- American. 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  never  let  me  know  about  it,  if  there  was. 

Mr.  Halley.  And,  when  you  go  to  investigate  it,  you  hit  a  blank. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Boyle,  it  would  be  very  useful,  if  you  find  the 
file  tomorrow,  if  sometime  you  could  drop  by  and  let  Mr.  Halley  or 
Mr.  Robinson  go  over  it  with  you. 

Mr.  BoYLE.  I  would  be  glad  to  cooperate. 

The  Chairman.  We  appreciate  very  much  your  appearance,  and 
we  will  be  in  touch  with  jou  from  time  to  time.  Any  suggestions 
that  come  to  you  that  may  be  helpful  to  us.  we  would  appreciate  your 
passing  on  to  us.  I  wish  that  you  would  do  this,  Mr.  Boyle.  After 
thinking  it  over,  give  us  any  recommendations  for  Federal  legislation 
that  might  be  effective  without  infringing  on  the  rights  of  the  State 
and  the  local  community,  that  might  be  helpful  in  the  problem  of  law 
enforcement.    Do  you  think  of  some  now  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  As  I  understand  now,  the  wire  service  is  perfectly  legiti- 
mate and  legal. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Boyle.  It  was  in  1946  and  1947.  It  was  legitimate  at  that 
time.  I  think  if  you  pass  a  law  preventing  the  passage  of  slot 
machines  across  State  lines  it  will  be  a  tremendous  thing  for  the  local 
law-enforcing  officials. 

The  Chairman.  It  would  not  help  you  here  in  Illinois  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  it  would. 

The  Chairman.  You  think  it  would  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes ;  I  do. 

The  Chairman.  I  thought  they  were  all  made  here. 

Mr.  Boyle.  A  lot  of  them  are  made  here;  most  of  them  are  made 
here. 

(Brief  recess.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  ELMER  MICHAEL  WALSH,  SHEEIFF, 
COOK  COUNTY,  ILL. 

The  Chairman.  Sheriff,  we  are  sorry  to  have  detained  you  so  long. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  all  right. 

The  Chairman.  Have  a  seat,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley,  will  you  ask  the  sheriff  any  questions  you  have  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  175 

Mr.  Halley.  Will  you  state  your  jurisdiction? 

Sheriff  Wai.sh.  :My  jurisdiction  is  Cook  County.  The  sheriff  here 
is  still  the  highest  law-enforcement  officer  in  the  count:y.  However, 
the  sheriff  does  not  exercise  jurisdiction  in  the  municipalities,  par- 
ticularly in  Chicago.  Cook  County  has  some  91  incorporated  towns. 
There  are  about  a  total  of  850  police  in  these  incorporated  towns,  in 
aggregate  number.  So  the  sheriff  confines  himself,  so  far  as  police 
work  is  concerned,  to  the  unincorporated  areas  in  Cook  County.  There 
are  about  450  miles  of  unincorporated  area  in  Cook  County. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  men  do  you  have  on  your  force,  and  how 
are  they  distributed? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  One  hundred  twenty-nine. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  do  you  use  them  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh*.  Those  men  are  divided  into  three  districts :  In  the 
north  end  of  the  county,  we  have  a  station  in  Homewood;  in  the  mid- 
dle of  the  county,  Bedford  Park ;  and  in  the  south  end  of  the  county 
is  Homewood,  district  No.  3. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  are  available  for  civil  work  and  how  many 
for  criminal  work? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  have  772  employees  in  my  office.  Only  about  one- 
sixth  of  the  budget  is  provided  for  highway  police.  All  the  other 
men  are  used  for  process  servers,  civil  and  criminal,  all  the  bailiffs 
in  the  courtrooms,  civil  courts  and  criminal  courts.  The  sheriff  is  the 
warden  of  the  county  jail.  There  are  13:2  men  over  there.  I  am  also 
the  custodian  of  the  County  Building  in  Chicago,  and  also  the  Crimi- 
nal Court  Building  on  the  West  Side;  and  as  custodian,  I  have  a 
large  number  of  employees  to  do  the  window  washing,  floor  mop- 
ping, elevator  operators,  and  all  the  work  of  keeping  up  those  build- 
ings. However,  I  have  only  129  men  in  police  work,  and  that  is  all 
the  budget  provides  for. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much  road  do  they  have  to  patrol  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  There  is  about  450  square  miles  of  unincorporated 
territory  in  Cook  County.  In  the  last  10  years,  I  think  I  told  you 
when  you  were  in  my  office,  the  population  in  Chicago  has  gone  out  to 
live  in  rural  areas,  so  much  so  that  60  percent,  in  the  last  10  years, 
of  the  population  in  the  country  towns  has  come  into  the  country 
towns  away  from  Chicago.  In  other  words,  Chicago  has  increased 
only  7  percent  in  population  in  10  years,  and  in  the  rural  areas  it  has 
increased  40  percent  in  10  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  use  any  of  your  staff  for  crnnmal  nivestiga- 

tion?  .     .  TXT   1 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Very  little,  because  of  my  appropriation.  AVe  have 
no  investigators  in  the  sheriff's  office  at  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  say,  as  a  practical  matter,  then,  within  the 
municipalities,  the  municipal'  officers  take  care  of  it,  and  outside  of 
at  least  the  city  of  Chicago  you  have  left  investigative  work  to  the 
State's  attorney's  office  ?  .      ^  ■,      ,.  xi 

Sheriff  Walsh.  To  the  State's  attorney  s  office  and,  of  course,  the 
various  towns  and  cities  in  Cook  County  that  have  their  own  police 

forces. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  make  no  effort  to  do  investigative  work? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No;  except  that  we  help  where  we  can  and  assist 
these  other  chiefs  of  police  in  these  towns  where  we  can  and  when 
we  can. 


176  ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Ml'.  Haixey.  You  have  mentioned  that  under  the  hiw  the  sheriff  is 
really  the  hio-hest  law-enforcement  officer  in  the  county. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  Has  any  step  been  taken  or  any  recommendation 
been  made  by  you  to  cure  what  one  might  say  is  the  state  to  which 
the  office  lias  come,  with  your  force  so  taken  up  with  civil  duties, 
process  serving,  and  things  like  that  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes ;  there  Jias.  Each  year  before  the  budget  is 
passed  upon,  I  have  requested  an  addition  100  ]wlice  officers  which 
I  can  put  on  investigative  work  and  hel])  the  general  police  work. 
I  have  been  turned  down  every  year  that  I  have  gone  in. 

Mr.  Halley.  Under  the  budget,  are  you  compelled  to  use  your  600 
men  for  civil  work  and  process  serving?  Are  you  unable  to  take  men 
off  that  job  and  use  them  for  police  work? 

Sheriff  AValsii.  I  could  take  them  off  that  work,  but  that  load  is 
so  heavy,  because  every  lawsuit  that  is  filed  in  Cook  County  has  to 
come  through  my  office  for  service.  We  have  to  serve  all  those  civil 
courts.  The  lawsuits  are  piling  up  here  and  getting  larger  in  volume 
every  year. 

Mr.' Halley.  For  instance,  when  you  have  an  important  event  like 
the  murder  of  Drury,  an  obvious  gangster  murder,  would  it  be  possible 
for  your  office  to  take  part  in  the  investigation,  since  under  the  law 
you  are  the  highest  law-enforcement  officer? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  could.  We  don't  have  enough  men  to  assign 
to  that  work  because,  first  of  all,  we  feel  that  the  Chicago  police  have 
greater  facilities  than  we  have,  and  we  never  come  into  Chicago 
unless  they  ask  us  to,  and  they  have  never  asked  us.  So,  we  confine 
ourselves  to  the  county,  the  rural  districts. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  the  country,  you  do  not  do  investigative  work ;  is 
that  correct? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Only  when  it  pertains  to  something  which  w^e  find 
ourselves  in  an  unincorporated  territory. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  been,  for  instance,  picking  up  slot  machines? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes.  Since  I  have  been  sheriff,  we  have  seized, 
confiscated,  and  destroyed  approximately,  at  this  date,  about  1,450 
slot  machines. 

Mr.  Halley.  As  of  what  date  is  that,  Sheriff? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  w-as  installed  as  sheriff  in  December  1946,  and  my 
term  expires  in  about  2  months,  December  1.  I  think  my  term 
expires  about  2  months  from  now\ 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  those  seizures  resulted  in  prosecution? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Those  seizures  have  resulted  in  prosecutions.  _0n 
probably  95  percent  of  them  we  got  convictions,  and  the  machines 
wei-e  destroyed. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  are  prosecuted  by  the  State's  attorney's  office? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  By  the  State's  attorney. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  been  active  in  any  other  ty])e  of  gambling 
investigation,  bookmaking,  and  so  on,  gambling  houses? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes.  We  have  raided  approximately  725  books 
since  I  have  been  sheriff,  in  pretty  nearly  4  years,  now. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  find,  after  you  raid  them,  you  are  able  to  get 
convictions  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  we  are  able  to  get  convictions  on  books,  but 
unfortunately,  like  the  slot-machine  convictions,  all  they  get  is  a  $100 


ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  177 

fine,  and  they  just  s[)iing  up  again.  The  books  are  the  same  way. 
We  are  unable  to  get  any  results  to  have  them  prosecuted  under  the 
repeater  section  of  the  statute.  It  is  very  difficult  to  find  the  same 
person  with  the  same  book  the  second  time,  and  the  State's  attorney 
has  trouble  in  prosecution  and  getting  convictions. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  get  cooperation  from  him,  however,  in  attempting 
to  do  so  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  we  get  cooperation  from  the  State's  attorney, 
especially  since  State's  Attorney  Boyle  got  about  75  police  from  the 
Chicago  Police  Department  which  he  is  now  using  in  the  county  to 
assist  in  gambling  raids. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  there  still  a  serious  gambling  problem  in  the  county  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  would  say  not  now,  not  for  about  a  year,  since 
State's  Attorney  Boyle  got  these  additional  police  who  are  assisting 
now  in  the  slot-machine  raids. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  recently  is  that  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  How  recently^     I  would  say  it  is  over  a  year. 

Mr.  Halley.  Since  then,  has'the  gambling  decreased  considerably? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes.  The  slot  machines  now  have.  When  I  first 
came  in  office,  the  machines  were  up  on  bars  in  taverns.  We  have 
driven  them  to  back  rooms.  We  have  driven  them  to  putting  them 
in  steel  cases,  hiding  them  away,  putting  them  in  rooms,  rolhng  them 
out  when  they  know  everybody  who  is  in  the  place,  and  rolhng  them 
back  when  they  feel  somebody"^comes  in  that  they  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  would  be  the  situation  on  horse  books  at  the 

Sheriff  Walsh.  On  horse  books,  they  keep  springing  up.  We  will 
make  a  raid  at  one  location,  and  the  follovdng  week  they  will  move 
2  blocks  away  in  some  basement. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  do  they  get  their  wire  serviced  Have  you 
made  an  effort  to  find  out? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  It  is  usually  through  their  telephones. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  get  cooperation  from  the  telephone  company  ( 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  we  do.  The  telephone  company  has  been 
pretty  good  about  removing  phones. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  they  are  able  to  get  new  phones  and  spring  up 

again?  ,  •       ,^       ^       j.- 

Sheriff  Walsh.  They  are  able  to  get  new  phones  m  other  locations. 
Mr  H\lley.  Sheriff,  can  you  give  the  committee  any  information 
on  organized  crime  in  Chicago?     Have  you  seen  any  evidence  or  do 
you  have  any  information  about  the  Capone  group  of  gangsters  and 
their  successors,  in  Cook  County  ? 
Sheriff  Walsh.  In  Cook  County? 

Mr.  Halley.  Yes.  ^  ,      ,     i      ^ 

Sheriff  W\lsh.  Of  course,  all  that  I  know  about  the  Capone 
so-called  syndicate,  and  that  group,  is  what  I  read  m  the  papers 
and  what  I  read  about  what  the  crime  commission  has  done  to  reveal 
their  names.  I  have  never  come  across  any  of  them,  myself,  m  my 
work  in  the  sheriff's  office.  You  never  find  those  people  m  these 
books  that  we  raid.  You  never  find  them  m  the  taverns  that  we 
raid  these  slots  in.    They  are  never  there. 

There  is  some  evidence  of  organized  gambling,  I  would  say,  because 
some  of  these  taverns  we  have  raided  as  many  as  9  and  10  times  and 
got  convictions  every  time,  and  the  slot  machines  keep  coming  back 


178  ORGANIZED    CRIME:    IN   INTEI^STATE    COMMERCE 

in  again.  It  doesn't  seem  possible  that  these  places  would  be  able 
to  put  those  slots  up  each  time  unless  they  had  some  help  from 
someone  else,  unless  some  organization  was  behind  it. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  Have  you  had  any  informants  or  information  that 
the  slot-machine  business  in  the  county  is  syndicate-controlled  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Just  by  hearsay  and  general  rumors  that  the  slot 
machines  in  many  parts  of  the  county  were  organized.  We  never 
have  been  able  to  get  any  proof.  The  owners,  when  we  raid  these 
slots,  say  they  own  the  machines  themselves.  There  is  never  any 
evidence  we  can  ever  get,  when  we  make  one  of  these  raids,  that 
ties  in  an  organized  group. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  make  any  effort  in  the  county  to  keep  track 
of  the  people  who  are  notorious  as  being  the  Capone  syndicate  gang- 
sters, to  find  out  what  they  are  doing? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  have  never  made  it  a  practice  of  doing  that, 
because  of  the  multitudinous  duties  we  have.  We  have  the  regular 
police  duties  as  well  as  making  these  raids.  We  have  accidents  on 
our  highways.  We  have  burglaries.  We  have  robberies;  stolen-car 
cases.  We  don't  have  any  investigative  staff,  which  that  would 
require. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  have  no  other  questions. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Eobinson  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  No,  I  don't  think  I  have  any. 

The  Chairman.  Sheriff,  there  have  been  some  rumors  and  state- 
ments to  the  effect  that  gambling  places  run  out  in  the  county  con- 
siderably, and  that  you  can  drive  along  and  see  a  place  where  a  lot 
of  cars  are,  and  you  can  go  in  and  find  that  gambling  is  going  on 
in  there.    Do  you  have  any  information  about  that? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Would  you  be  talking  about  a  town  that  has 
its  own  police  force  ? 

The  Chairman.  No,  I  mean  outside  of  the  towns,  apparently, 
some  of  the  taverns. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  If  there  are  any  cars  around  there,  our  squads  are 
instructed  to  go  in  and  check  on  it  and  see  if  there  is  any  gambling 
going  on. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  such  squads  do  you  have  or  how  many 
men  do  you  have  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  have  Mr.  Greene,  the  chief  of  my  highway  police, 
here,  in  case  jou  want  to  ask  him  any  questions.  He  has  been  in  police 
work  about  16  years. 

We  have  available  in  each  station  about  three  squads.  You  break 
them  down  into  shifts  and  take  time  off'  for  furloughs  and  absenteeism 
and  the  like,  and  we  have  three  squads  for  each  station,  approximately, 
on  each  duty. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  stations  do  you  have  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Three  stations. 

The  Chairman.  You  do  not  undertake  to  do  anything  in  the  incor- 
porated cities? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No  ;  we  do  not.  I  have  written  about  90  letters  to 
the  mayors  of  towns  and  incorporated  areas,  calling  their  attention  to 
gambling  violations  which  have  been  related  to  me,  and  in  some  cases 
we  have  gone  in  ourselves  and  made  many  raids. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  some  of  these  towns  ?  They  have  had 
pretty  bad  enforcement,  have  they  not? 

Sheri  ff  Walsh.  Yes ;  they  have. 


ORGANIZEiD    CRIME    IX   rXTERSTATE    COMMERCE  179 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  not  think  you  have  a  duty,  where  they  have 
bad  enforcement,  to  go  in  there? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  have  gone  in  there,  Senator,  many  times.  But 
our  primary  obligation  is  in  the  unincorporated  areas.  We  have  gone 
into  many  of  those  towns. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  political  pressure  on  your  operations  i 
Do  politicians  try  to  get  vou  to  lay-off? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Xo  ;  I  would  say  I  get  very  little  or  no  pressure  from 
the  politicians.  I  think  that  is  accounted  for  because  of  the  fact  that 
when  I  was  elected  I  decided  I  would  have  World  War  II  veterans  in 
the  highwav  police  department.  I  was  a  veteran  myself.  I  made  a 
pledge  that  I  would  have  veterans  in  that  office  and  I  got  veterans  m 
there.  I  would  say  that  the  largest  percentage  of  them  don't  come 
through  ward  committemen  or  are  men  who  have  an  obligation  to  the 
ward  committeemen. 

The  Chairman.  You  say  "the  largest  percentage."  Do  you  have 
quite  a  percent  who  come  through  ward  committeemen? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Oh,  yes,  we  do. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  they  come  through  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  The  ward  committeeman  will  recommend  John  Doe 
for  a  job  as  a  highway  policeman.  He  comes  in  the  office  and  is  inter- 
viewed by  my  assistant.  He  is  fingerprinted.  If  he  meets  our  quali- 
fications, and  an  FBI  check  is  made  on  him  and  name  checked,  he  is 
put  on  the  job  and  we  give  him  some  training. 

The  Chairman.  Are  those  Democrat  and  Kepublican  ward  com- 
mitteemen ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  am  a  Republican.  I  am  one  of  the  few  Repub- 
licans in  Chicago  in  law  enforcement.  I  am  encircled  around  with 
Democrats,  for  the  most  part,  here  in  Chicago. 

The  Chairman.  Who  are  some  of  the  Republican  ward  committee- 
men we  have  been  hearing  about  ? 

JSIr.  Cahn.  Anybodv  from  the  river  wards  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  could  tell  you  about  that.  The  river  wards  are 
the  wards  over — some  names  were  mentioned  today — Adducci,  and 
Porcaro,  and  those  fellows.  They  have  a  few  jobs  in  my  office,  not 
very  many.  I  gave  them  a  kind  of  rough  time  because  of  the  fact  that 
they  were  not  for  me  for  sheriff.  They  were  against  me  for  sheriff. 
I  ran  for  county  treasurer  in  the  primary  last  spring,  and  they  were 
against  me  again,  all  that  same  group.  So  they  didn't  benefit  by  me 
being  in  office  very  much,  from  the  patronage  standpoint. 

The  Chairman.  You  say  "very  much."  How  much  did  they  benefit 
by  vour  being  in  office  ? 

'  Sheriff  Walsh.  They  got  about,  I  would  say.  about  as  much  as  the 
other  ward  committeemen.  In  other  words,  they  got  maybe  a  third  less 
than  the  others  did.  Of  course,  an  elected  Republican  committeeman 
is  entitled  to  some  patronage,  but  they  didn't  get  very  much  from  me. 

The  Chairman.  Is  your  office  run  on  a  patronage  basis  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  it  is.  It  is  not  civil  service.  It  is  on  a  patron- 
age basis.  And  when  my  term  expires  in  December  and  a  new  man 
comes  in,  ostensibly  there  will  be  a  complete  turn-over  of  employees. 

The  Chairman.  "  You  mean  vou  turned  them  all  over  when  you  got 
in? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes.  I  took  over  from  a  Democrat.  The  previous 
sheriff  was  a  Democrat.     When  I  came  in  office,  I  weeded  out,  I  would 


180  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

say,  90  percent  of  the  men  he  had  in  his  ojffice.  I  kept  about  10  per- 
cent of  them,  who  were  unusually  good,  I  thoujiht. 

The  CiTAiKMAN.  That  is  a  pretty  bad  business,  is  it  not? 

Sherifl'  Walsh.  It  is  a  bad  business.  It  shouldn't  be  done.  It 
should  be  civil  service.     I  am  in  favor  of  civil  service 

The  Chairman.  What  would  it  take  to  make  it  civil  service  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  It  takes  an  amendment  of  our  State  constitution. 

The  Chairman.  Can  you  not  just  pass  a  law  in  the  legislature? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No,  they  can't  do  that  here.  They  have  to  amend 
the  constitution. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  civil  service  for  the  county  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  right.  Because  the  sheriff's  office  is  a  fee 
office.     I  got  an  opinion  on  that  when  I  was  first  elected. 

The  Chairman.  How  are  you  paid,  by  salary  or  by  fee  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  am  paid  by  salary. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  do  you  make? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  $9,941  a  year. 

The  Chairman.  Do  yon  get  any  fees  in  addition  to  that '. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No  fees  in  addition  to  that. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  your  patrolmen,  your  deputies,  are 
they  all  paid  by  fees  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  They  get  $260  a  month.  They  are  paid  the  same 
way  I  am.     None  of  them  are  paid  on  a  fee  basis. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  the  fees  come  in? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  The  fees  come  in  because  the  lawyers  pay  fees  for 
the  services  of  summons.     It  is  called  a  fee  office. 

The  Chairman.  Oh,  yes.  If  the  fees  make  it,  all  right.  If  they 
do  not,  you  get  your  salary  anyway  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  get  our  salary  anyway. 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  any  effort  on  the  part  of  these  racketeers 
or  gangster  elements  to  prevent  you  from  being  a  candidate  again  for 
sheriff? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  couldn't  succeed  myself,  Senator,  in  this  job.  You 
cannot  succeed  yourself  here  anyhow  for  sheriff.  I  ran  for  county 
treasurer  here,  and  the  so-called  river  wards.  West  Side  wards,  were 
all  against  me  when  I  ran  for  treasurer. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  get  nominated  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  was  not  nominated.     I  was  defeated. 

The  Chairman.  So  the  river  wards  seems  to  be  pretty  powerful. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  They  were  against  me.  They  were  against  me  when 
I  was  elected  sheriff,  too. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Boyle  said  he  wrote  a  letter  to  you,  and  also  to 
the  police  departments  of  all  of  these  cities  in  the  county,  about  hand- 
books, and  that  nothing  much  had  been  done  about  it. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  would  say  that  seven -hundred-and-some  handbook 
raids  is  the  best  answer  to  that.  Senator.  That  is  what  my  record 
shows,  and  Mr.  Boyle  prosecuted  all  those  cases.     He  should  know. 

The  Chairman.  Maybe  I  did  not  state  his  testimony  correctly.  I  do 
not  want  to  cause  any  misunderstanding  between  yon  and  Mr.  Boyle. 

How  about  Guzik  and  the  Fischettis  and  these  peopled  Have  you 
gotten  them  on  any  charges  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No;  we  never  have.  I  don't  even  know  them.  I 
wouldn't  know  them  except  by  what  I  read  in  the  papers  about  them. 
I  am  new,  of  course,  in  public  life  and  politics.     I  just  came  in  when 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  181 

I  <rot  out  of  the  service  and  was  elected  sheriff.     Those  names  have 
been  names  that  I  have  heard  for  15  or  20  years,  25  years. 
The  CiiAiKMAX.  But  you  never  came  across  them  ? 
Sheriff  Walsh.  I  have  never  come  across  them. 
The  C'liAiKMAX.  How  about  the  Mafia  or  the  Unione  Siciliano  i 
Sheriff  Walsh.  I  have  never  come  across  them  at  alh 
The  Chaikmax.  Do  you  and  the  police  department  here  m  the  city 
lia\e  liaison  where  yoi\  work  together,  or  do  you  eacli  go  your  own 

^'  ^Sheriff  Walsh.  We  have  liaison.  Mayor  Kennelly  was  kind  enough 
to  assign  one  Chicago  policeman  to  me,  and  that  one  Chicago  police- 
man is  the  liaison  between  my  office  and  Commissioner  Prendergast. 
If  we  have  anvthing,  if  I  get  complaints  on  anything  m  Chicago,  I  give 
it  to  him  and  "he  turns  it  over  to  Commissioner  Prendergast. 

The  Chairmax.  Do  you  have  any  method  of  working  out  or  ex- 
changing information  and  reports^  . 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes.  I  have  talked  to  Commissioner  Prendergast 
many  times  about  complaints  I  have  received. 

Tiie  Ghaiemax.  I  do  not  mean  talking  with  him.  I  mean  do  you 
send  him  information  about  reports^  .     i  ^^       t     -ii 

Sheriff  W^^lsh.  Xo.  If  I  get  a  letter,  if  I  were  to  get  a  letter,  i  will 
send  the  letter  to  him,  about  some  gambling  in  Chicago. 

Tlie  Chairmax.  Then  how  about  the  State  governments  Do  you 
have  any  system  of  exchanging  information  with  their  State  enforce- 
ment agency?  .       1       ,  ,  J.   ^1     4. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  have  nothing  particularly  set  up,  except  that 
the  lieutenants  and  my  chief  are  in  touch  with  the  State  police,  and 
they  cooperate  with  us  very  well.  ,    ,      _,  „  .    , 

The  Chah^max.  But  you  do  not  send  the  State  all  your  information, 
and  they  do  not  send  you  all  of  theirs? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No.  •         ^  4: 

The  Chairmax.  Are  there  any  efforts  at  paying  oft  you  or  any  ot 
your  people,  or  trying  to  bribe  you  to  cooperate  ? 

^  Sheriff  Walsh.  I  have  never  been  approached,  nor  do  i  know  ot 
any  of  my  people  who  have  been  approached.  I  have  let  some  people 
out  of  my  office  because  I  suspected  that  they  might  be  taking  money, 
shakino-  down  people  and  the  like,  but  I  have  no  information  that  any 
of  my  police  have  ever  taken  any  money,  nor  have  I  ever  told  any  of 
my  police  to  let  a  place  go.  ...  .     w 

Mr  H\LLEY.  Can  you  aet  a  high  type  of  law-enforcement  officer 
for  $260  a  month  without  any  tenure,  and  with  the  full  expectation 
of  being  turned  out  of  office  at  the  end  of  the  term  ?  ^  ^    tt  n 

Shpi-Tff  Walsh.  I  would  say  it  is  very  difficult  to  do  that,  Mr.  Halley, 
very  difficult.  I  think  civil  service,  if  it  goes  through  here,  and  the 
Gateway  amendment  is  passed  which  will  probably  open  the  door  tor 
civil  service  it  will  do  a  whole  lot  for  the  police  department.  There 
has  been  some  talk  here  of  consolidating  all  the  police  forces  in  the 
county,  which  I  think  might  have  some  merit.  That  means  to  have 
all  the  police  in  all  these  towns,  850  in  aggregate  number  m  all  the 
various  towns,  and  the  sheriff's  police  and  the  State  police,  consoli- 
dated in  one  group,  where  there  would  be  no  divided  authority,  iliat 
has  some  possibility  of  being  worked  out,  and  the  civic  fecleration  has 
been  talking  about  that  for  the  last  couple  of  years.  That  may  be 
the  answer  to  it. 


182  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  That  sounds  like  something  that  is  worth  looking 
into. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  right,  sir. 

The  CiiAiRMAN^.  Any  other  questions,  gentlemen? 

Mr.  Cahn,  did  you  have  some  things  written  down  there? 

Mr.  Cahn.  No,  thank  you. 

The  Chairman.  George? 

Mr.  White.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Kobinson? 

Mr.  Robinson.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Sheriff,  we  would  be  very  glad  to  have  you  consider 
the  problem  that  we  are  looking  into,  and  have  you  make  any  recom- 
mendations that  you  think  of  where  the  Federal  Government  could  be 
of  assistance,  any  laws  that  might  be  amended  or  passed  that  would 
help  with  the  local  law  enforcement  problems.  I  think  we  sent  you 
a  letter. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes ;  I  received  it. 

The  Chairman.  I  do  not  know  whether  I  got  an  answer  from  you, 
or  not. 

Slieriff  Walsh.  Yes ;  I  wrote  an  answer. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  think  of  anything  else,  you  let  us  know. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  suggested  in  the  letter  about  the  telephones  being 
taken  out  of  books  and  slot  machines. 

The  Chairman.  I  think  at  this  point  we  might  make  the  sheriff's 
reply  to  our  letter  a  part  of  the  record. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  think  I  sent  in  two  letters. 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

(The  letters  referred  to  are  identified  as  exhibit  No.  25,  and  appear 
in  the  appendix  on  p.  1381.) 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Sheriff  Walsh. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Let  me  know  if  I  can  be  of  any  help  later. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you. 

(Brief  recess.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  OTTO  KERNER,  JR.,  UNITED  STATES  ATTORNEY, 
NORTHERN  DISTRICT  OF  ILLINOIS 

Mr.  Halley.  JNIr.  Kerner,  would  you  state  to  the  committee,  for  the 
committee's  record,  what  you  can  add  to  the  picture  you  have  already 
heard,  of  law  enforcement  in  Cook  County? 

Mr.  Kerner.  In  my  31/0  years  as  United  States  attorney  in  this 
district,  to  my  knoAvledge  law  enforcement  locally  has  been  as  good 
as  the  law  allows  it  to  be. 

We  in  our  office  have  worked  with  the  State's  attorney,  and  in  the 
many  matters  where  there  is  concurrent  jurisdiction  we  have  worked 
in  cooperation. 

In  recent  months,  for  example,  is  the  Brinks  murder  case,  in  Avhich 
the  defendant,  Jakalski,  was  tried  twice  for  murder,  and  Tamborski 
was  tried  once  for  murder  in  one  of  the  cases  against  Tamjorski,  but 
they  were  not  successful,  and  we  returned  an  indictment  here  for  ag- 
gravated bank  robbery.  The  State's  attorney  relinquished  jurisdic- 
tion of  the  case  in  order  that  the  Federal  jurisdiction  may  take  over 
under  the  Federal  bankino;  laws. 


OEGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    OOMMEECE  183 

There  lias  been  a  series  of  cases  which  either  he  has  relinquished 
jurisdiction  or  we  have,  where  we  thought  that  justice  would  be  swifter 
and  the  punishment  more  certain  and  probably  more  severe. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  your  cooperation  with  the  State's  attorney  good? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Yes,  excellent,  I  would  say ;  excellent.  I  have  never 
received  any  harassment  nor  has  any  hurdle  been  placed  in  our  way 
in  any  case  that  we  took  over,  and  I  think  that  Mr.  Boyle  would  prob- 
ably say  the  same  about  our  office. 

In  the  3  years,  I  would  estimate  that  in  criminal  matters  the  county 
and  the  Federal  Government  have  had  approximately  500  or  GOO  cases 
in  which  there  was  concurrent  jurisdiction,  such  as  stolen  automobile 
cases,  robbery  cases,  cases  generally  of  that  nature.  Whenever  I  have 
requested  any  information  of  Mr.  Boyle  in  the  furtherance  of  any  case 
in  which  there  was  concurrent  jurisdiction  or  in  cases  where  we  have 
sole  jurisdiction  and  we  thought  the  State's  attorney  would  have  infor- 
mation about  it,  they  have  willingly  turned  it  over  to  us. 

For  instance,  yesterday  morning  an  assistant  State's  attorney  called 
me  and  stated  that  he  had  a  couple  of  men  in  his  office  who  knew  the 
whereabouts  of  Matt  Capone.  the  alias  he  was  using,  that  of  Hunter, 
where  he  was  located.  That  information,  I  turned  over  to  the  United 
States  marshal,  since  I  presumed  he  might  have  subpenas  from  this 
committee ;  and  I  read  by  this  morning's  papers  that  Matt  Capone  was 
found,  and  I  presume  that  it  was  based  upon  that  information. 

That,  I  say,  is  typical  of  the  type  of  cooperation  that  I  have  had  from 
Mr.  Boyle. 

As  to  my  experience  with  certain  of  these  named  individuals  whose 
names  I  have  seen  in  the  paper,  such  as  Accardo,  Bernstein,  and  certain 
hoodlums  located  in  other  parts  of  the  United  States,  my  only  contact 
with  them,  of  course,  has  been  strictly  a  legal  one.  As  you  probably 
know,  and  as  the  record  will  show,  the  parole  warrants  against  three 
of  the  parolees,  Campagna.  Gioe,  and  DeLucia,  were  issued  out  of  this 
district.  Campagna  and  Gioe  were  sent  off  to  the  Atlanta  Peniten- 
tiary. DeLucia  fought  the  Government  on  that  matter  through  a 
petition  for  a  writ  of  habeas  corpus,  and  was  successful  both  in  the 
district  court  and  in  the  Court  of  Appeals  for  the  Seventh  Circuit. 

At  the  time  we  learned  that  there  might  possibly  be  grounds  for  a 
parole  revocation,  a  Federal  grand  jury  was  given  all  information 
concerning  the  doings  of  these  parolees ;  and  all  of  the  parolees,  Cam- 
pagna, Gioe,  DeLucia,  and  D'Andrea,  were  before  the  grand  jury.  We 
sought  information  both  as  to  the  manner  of  obtaining  their  paroles 
and  also  as  to  their  conduct  since  the  paroles  were  granted,  and  I  was 
impressed  by  the  fact  that  names  such  as  Vogel  or  Ricca  from  New 
York  showed  up,  names  like  Tony  Gizzo  from  Kansas  City,  and  there 
w^as  an  admission,  both  by  the  parolees  and  by  Gizzo,  that  they  knew 
each  other,  and  apparent!}^  knew  each  other  through  attending  race 
tracks  and  various  sporting  events,  betting,  and  things  of  that  nature. 

I  also  was  impressed  by  the  fact  that  members  of  the  parolee'? 
families,  on  visiting  Kansas  City,  in  their  A'isits  to  Leavenworth  t^ 
visit  their  husbands,  were  pretty  much  taken  care  of,  their  wants 
taken  care  of,  transportation,  were  taken  care  of  by  Tony  Gizzo  ot* 
some  employee  of  his. 

The  telephone  company,  of  course,  provided  to  us,  on  subpena,  the 
telephone  reports  or  billings  in  the  homes  of  these  parolees,  and  that 


184  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

is  wliere  I  noticed  t'liat  t'liere  were  telephone  calls  to  aiid  from  Vogel 
to  llicca  in  New  York,  which  shows  at  least  an  ac(iuaintaiiceship  or 
friendship  between  these  individuals.  At  that  time  I  talked  to  Virgil 
Peterson  about  it,  and  Mr.  Peterson  and  I  had  severa^  conservations 
^ind  luncheons  at  which  we  discussed  this  apparent  t,ie-up  among  the 
hoodlums  or  the  hoodlum  element  in  the  Chicago  area  with  elements 
throughout  various  parts  of  the  country. 

In  that  parole  investigation,  of  course,  )ye' had  very  many  FBI 
reports,  and  the  names  of  many  hoadlums  throughout  the  country 
showed  up  in  those  reports,  and  of  course,  the  names  of  many  inno- 
cent people  as  well,  who  had  nothing  to  do  with  it  and  who  were  per- 
fectly good,  reliable  business  people  or  professional  people. 

At  that  time,  I  concluded  in  my  own  mind,  certainly,  if  there  was 
not  a  syndicate  or  Mafia  or  some  organized  group  throug-'hout  the 
Nation,  certainly  they  were  on  more  than  just  friendly  speaking  terms 
with  one  another,  and  the  theory  of  Mr.  Peterson  that  there  was  a 
national  group  working  together  loomed  in  my  mind  as  a  good  prob- 
ability or  possibility. 

During  the  conduct  of  that  grand  jury  investigation,  I  received  no 
direct  evidence,  that  would  stand  up  in  a  court  of  law,  that  there  was 
any  such  organization.  Also,  the  records  of  this  court  will  show 
that  an  indictment  was  returned  against  Tony  Accardo  and  Eugene 
Bernstein  for  violation  of  old  sections  80  and  S8  of  title  18.  One, 
title  80,  of  course,  is  the  ol/:l  section  of  title  18  before  September  1, 
1948,  which  made  it  a  crime-  to  deprive  a  Government  agency  or  official 
of  exercising  its  judgment.  Title  88,  of  course,  is  a  general  conspiracy 
clause.  Under  that  indictment,  Tony  Accardo  and  Eugene  Bern- 
stein were  tried  in  this  court,  and  a  jury  found  them  not  guilty  of  a 
violation  of  either  section,  title  80  or  88. 

Mr.  Halley.  To  what  do  you  attribute  the  acquittal  ? 

Mr.  Keener.  The  jury — for  what  reason,  I  cannot  answer,  because 
I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  an  FBI  investigation  made  of  the  jury? 

Mr.  Kerner.  No,  an  FBI  investigation  was  not  made  of  the  jury, 
because  I  was  convinced  that  the  jury,  in  my  mind,  were  above  suspi- 
cion, and  they  in  their  own  mind,  I  am  certain,  did  a  very  conscientious 
job.  I  remember  particidarly  the  fact  that  that  jury  went  out,  I 
believe,  on  a  Friday,  and  stayed  out  overnight.  They  came  back 
and  asked  for  reinstructions  by  the  court,  and  then  went  back.  I  did 
learn  that  several  people,  I  don't  recall  the  exact  number,  I  think  run- 
ning three  or  four,  wished  to  find  the  two  defendants  guilty.  The 
balance  of  the  jury  were  voting  for  not  guilty. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  find  the  reason?  Did  they  feel  that 
there  just  wasn't  a  crime  involved  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Several  of  the  jurors  told  me  that  after  the  testimony  of 
Gordon  Hunter,  of  Leavenworth  Penitentiary,  that  he  would  have 
allowed  Accardo  in  the  pi'ison  even  if  he  knew  his  real  name,  and  that, 
coupled  with  the  instruction  that  was  presented  by  the  defendants' 
counsel  that  if  the  jury  believed  that  the  warden  would  have  let  them 
into  the  penitentiary  regardless  of  what  name  they  used,  they  should 
find  the  defendants  guilty,  on  that  basis  they  said  they  changed 
their  A'ote  and  did  not  hold  out  for  a  guilty  verdict,  and  voted  with  the 
majority  of  the  jurors  under  what  we  call  the  shotgun  or  the  Adams 
instruction. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INITERSTATE    COMMERCE  185 

Mr  Halley.  Did  vou  look  into  the  counsel  that  they  employed  in 
obttiininff  their  parole,  and  the  fees  paid  for  the  parole^? 

Mr  Kerxpr.  Yes.  All  of  that  Avas  investigated.  The  only  person 
whom  we  did  not  have  before  the  grand  jury  was  the  president  or  the 
chairman  of  tne  parole  board,  who  died  just  about  the  time  that  we 
were  bt  -'nnincr  our  grand- jurv  investigation.  I  have  forgotten  his 
name  of  hand,  but  h.e  came  from  :Mississippi.;  All  the  other  parole 
board  members  were "bt fore  the  grand  jury.       ; 

We  of  course,  asked  the  questions,  and  the  grand  ]urors  were  tree 
to  ask  questions  of  them  at  anv  time,  which  they  did.  As  a  matter  of 
fact  Dr  Killinger,  who  is  now  chairman  of  the  parole  board,  wa& 
appointed  during  the  pendencv  of  that  grand  jury,  which  lasted  ap- 
proximately IT  months  intermittently,  olf  and  on,  and  even  Dr.  Kil- 
linger appeared  before  that  grand  jury  and  testified. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  Hughes  testify?  ,  ,     .    ,-n    . 

Mr.  Kekxer.  Yes;  Maury  Hughes  was  subpenaed  and  he  testitiecl. 

Mr  H  \LLEY.  What  was  his  story,  in  effect  ? 

Mr  Kerxer.  His  story,  in  effect,  was  the  same  story  that  was  given 
bv  him  before  the  congressional  committee  in  Washington,  that  some 
chap  came  to  his  office,  his  law  office  in  Texas,  and  said  that  he  wanted 
him  to  intervene  in  the  matter  and  obtain  a  dismissal  of  another  in- 
dictment pending  against  these  same  defendants  m  the  court  m  the 
southern  district  of  New  York,  and  he  asked  the  sum  of  $15,000  tor 
those  leo-al  services.  That  he  did  proceed  to  New  1  ork,  and  that  the 
indictment  was  dismissed.  He  was  not  certain  whether  he  caused  it 
or  whether  the  policv  of  the  Department  of  Justice  caused  the  dismissal 
of  that  indictment. "  That  he  was  paid  originally  the  sum  of  $1,000  in 
a  hotel  here  in  Chicago,  in  $100  bills,  and  that  after  the  indictment  was 
dismissed  he  received  the  sum  of  $11,000  m  cash  m  New  York  Uty, 
which  he  then  took  to  the  Hibernia  Bank— is  there  such  a  bank  m  xNew 
York  City? 

]Mr.  Halley.  Yes.  .  i  •     ,     i      i      tt 

Mr  Kerxer  And  there  changed  the  bills  into  a  cashier  s  check.  Me 
could  not  identify  the  individual.  He  didn't  have  the  individuaFs 
address.  The  name  that  was  given  was  an  Irish  name.  I  don  t  recall  it 
at  the  present  moment. 

Mr.  Demsreux.  Kyan.  ^  t  i   ,.  i     i  ii 

Mr  Kerxer.  Ryan.  He  stated  that  the  individual  didn  t  look  like  an 
individual  who  would  naturally  bear  the  name  of  Ryan;  that  he  was 
swarthy  in  color  and  looked  to  be  of  ]SIediterranean  descent,  but  he 
never  received  any  telephone  number  from  this  man  or  any  address. 

This  individual  always  contacted  him.  and  he  never  contacted  him, 
nor  would  he  ever  be  able  to  coiftact  him.  He  was  unable  to  give  any 
identification  to  the  grand  jury  as  to  who  this  Ryan  individual  might 

truly  be. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  Dillon  testify  ? 

I^lr  Kerxer.  Dillon  did  testify.  We  had  difficulty  m  ourainmg 
service  on  Mr.  Dillon.  We  had  a  subpena  out  for  him.  We  were  not 
able  to  find  him  at  Ins  home  or  his  office  in  St.  Louis,  and  we  received 
various  reports  that  he  was  traveling  in  and  about  the  country.  New 
Mexico  back  to  St.  Louis  and  out  East. 

We  finally  did  locate  him  in  Brookline,  Mass.,  a  suburb  to  the  west 
of  Boston.    As  soon  as  I  found  that  out.  I  got  in  touch  with  the  marshal 

68958— 51— pt.  5 13 


186  ORGANIZED    CRIME;   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

in  Boston,  who  served  a  subpena  card  upon  Mv.  Dillon,  and  Mr.  Dillon 
then  reported  here  to  Chicago.  Mr.  Dillon  did  appear  before  the 
grand  jury  and  testified. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  ascertain  who  made  the  contact  for  these 
people  with  Dillon? 

Mr.  Kernek.  Yes.  Mrs.  Campagna  testified  that  she  went  to  Dillon 
through  Wilhe  Heeney,  through  Putty  Nose  Grady,  and  was  sent  to 
Dillon  through  that  means,  that  channel ;  and  that  she  employed  Dillon 
to  intervene  on  behalf  of  her  husband,  I  am  not  certain  whether  slie 
said  on  behalf  of  DeLucia  as  well,  but  certainly  on  her  husband's 
•behalf  before  the  parole  board;  and  that  he  received  the  sum  of 
$10,000,  which  check  we  had  in  our  possession,  and  as  an  exhibit  be- 
fore the  grand  jury,  a  $10,000  check  made  out  by  the  First  National 
Bank  of  Cicero,  I  believe  that  is  the  bank.  I  believe  it  is  located  on 
the  northwest  corner  of  Cicero  and  Cermak  Koad  in  Cicero ;  no  Austin 
and  Cermak  Road.  ' 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  brought  Hughes  into  the  case?  Was  Dillon  the 
counsel  of  record  handling  the  matter  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Dillon  was  the  counsel  before  the  parole  board 
Hughes'  name  never  came  into  any  matter,  so  far  as  the  parole  was 
concerned.  Hughes"  only  appearance  in  the  matter  at  all  was  his  ap- 
pearance m  the  southern  district  of  New  York  to  obtain  the  dis- 
missal of  the  other  pending  indictment,  which  had  not  been  tried  and 
was  left  pending  after  the  extortion  trial  or  the  antiracketeerin*.-  in- 
dictment was  tried  successfully.  '^ 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  Bernstein  fit  into  the  picture? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Bernstein  fitted  into  that  picture  in  only  one  in- 
stance—no, in  several  instances.  Bernstein,  from  the  testimonv  of 
Dei^ucia  and  Campagna,  was  their  tax  attorney,  and  he  appeared"  and 
did  visit  Campagna  and  DeLucia  while  they  were  incarcerated  at 
Leavenworth,  and  I  am  not  certain  at  this  time  whether  he  also  made 
a  visit  or  two,  I  believe  he  did,  while  they  were  incarcerated  at  Atlanta 
He  made  a  number  of  visits  to  Leavenworth,  and  on  one  of  these  visits 
to  Leavenworth  he  was  accompanied  by  Tony  Accardo,  who  used  the 
name  of  Joseph  Bulger,  which  is  the  same  "name  which  was  raised 
earlier  m  the  session.  His  name  previouslv  was  Joseph  Imburcrio 
He  at  one  time,  I  understand,  was  mayor  of  Melrose  Park,  an  attorney, 
and  also  the  same  Joseph  Bulger  who  was  mentioned  by  DeLucia  I 
believe,  before  your  committee,  as  the  president  of  tlie  American- 
Italian  Society.  Bulger— rather,  Accardo,  using  the  name  of  Bul^^cr 
m  signing  the  register  of  the  visitors  at  Leavenworth  Penitentiary, 
entered  Leavenwortli  Penitentiary  and  visited  with  Campagna  and 
DeLucia  at  the  same  time  they  were  ndsited  by  Bernstein. 

I  believe  there  were  severalof  those  visits.  'l  don't  recall  the  exact 
number.  I  would  say  my  best  recollection  at  the  present  time  is  not 
more  than  four.  There  was  more  than  one,  but  I  don't  believe  more 
than  tour. 

The  grand  jury  indicted  Accardo  and  Bernstein  on  those  char^res, 
and  that  is  the  indictment  I  spoke  of  before.  ^ 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  any  of  the  lawyers  figure  in  the  parole  picture? 

Air.  Kerner.  To  what  lawyers  do  you  have  reference,  Mr.  Halley? 

Mr.  Halley.  Representing  Campagna,  Ricca,  and  Gioe. 

Mr.  Kerner.  No;  the  attorneys  that  represented  Accardo  and  Bern- 
stem  m  the  trial  of  the  indictment  here  were  George  Callaluvu  and 


ORGANIZED    CRIME-   IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  187 

another  lawyer  whose  name  just  temporarily  slips  my  mind.  I  have 
known  him  and  met  him  when  I  was  practicing  law  privately  as  a 
foreclosure  lawyer,  a  real-estate  lawyer,  a  general  civil  lawyer  m  the 

local  courts.  .    -,        ■,       j^-,  j- 

Mr.  H ALLEY.  At  the  moment,  I  have  m  mind,  rather,  the  proceedings 

to  obtain  the  parole.  ^^     ^-  u 

My  Kerxer.  The  onlv  attorneys  who  came  to  our  attention  who 
figTired  in  the  parole  at  all  were  Dillon  and  another  lawyer  from  North 
Dakota,  whose  name  I  doirt  presently  have  in  my  mind. 

^Ir.  RoBiNsox.  A  lawyer  from  North  or  South  Dakota  represented 

Phil  b'Andrea.  ^        ^w     -,  i  it, 

Mr  Kerner.  He  represented  Phil  D'Andrea  alone,  and  he  was 
brou<rht  into  the  matter,  as  I  recall,  by  Phil  D'Aiidrea's  brother,  who 
interested  this  lawyer  up  in  the  Dakotas  to  intervene  on  Phil 
D'Andrea's  behalf .  „-,..■,  i    • 

Mr.  Halley.  Wasn't  there  any  evidence  of  political  pressure  being 
brought  to  bear  to  obtain  the  parole? 

]\Ir.  Kerner.  No  :  not  from  any  evidence  or  testimony  that  we  had ; 

absolutely  not.  .        -,  .  ,  ^        ^^  t 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  the  situation  one  m  which,  unless  the  parole 
board"  was  misled,  a  parole  would  ordinarily  be  expected  to  be  granted  ? 

:Mr.  Kerner.  Let  me  say  that  in  my  experience  m  the  last  31/2  years, 
normally— I  am  speaking  only  of  my  experience  m  these  years- 
parole  is  normally  granted  to  Federal  prisoners  upon  their  completion 
of  a  third  of  their  sentence,  if  they  have  proved  to  the  prison  author- 
ities that  they  are  rehabilitated  in  their  minds  and  have  been  good 
prisoners.  That,  I  say,  is  the  normal  procedure  in  my  experience 
The  only  prisoner  sent  away  from  this  district  who  was  not  paroled 
at  the  expiration  of  one-third  of  his  sentence  was  William  Johnson, 
who  was  convicted  in  this  court  before  I  came  in  here,  I  believe  m  the 
middle  forties,  for  income-tax  evasion.  As  I  recall,  the  newspapers 
wrote  some  matters  about  that.  A  third  of  his  sentence  expired  at  or 
about  the  time  this  parole  jury  was  in  session.  It  is  my  personal 
opinion  that  that  had  a  great  deal  to  do  with  his  not  being  paroled 
at  that  time.  He  has  since  been  paroled,  and  only  recently  settled 
with  the  Treasury  Department  on  the  taxes  that  they  thought  were 
due  on  his  income-tax  return,  which  was  not  handled  by  my  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  the  parole  of  these  people  recommended  by  the 
iDi-osecuting  attorney  ?  ,1^1 

Mr  Iverner.  I  do  not  know.  You  see,  these  defendants  were  in- 
dicted and  tried  in  the  southern  district  of  New  York.  I  understand 
that  the  judge  at  the  time  of  the  sentence  advised  by  letter  that  these 
men  should  not  be  considered  for  parole.  I  believe  that  the  prosecu- 
tor was  Mr.  Kostelanetz,  and  I  don't  recall  whether  he  was  even  asked 
for  his  recommendation.     I  don't  know.  ,  -r    n       -r,  •   1 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  I  believe  he  was,  and  both  he  and  Judge  Brighton 
were  rather  violently  opposed  to  it. 

Mr  Halley.  Was  the  jurisdiction  of  your  grand  ]ury  connected 
Avith  the  parole,  or  with  the  visits  to  the  prison  under  the  assumed 

name ' 

Mr.' Kerner.  No;  it  was  started  to  investigate  the  granting  of  the 
paroles,  but  during  the  course  of  which  we  found  out  that  Accardo  and 
Bernstein  visited  the  penitentiary,  and  Accardo  under  the  name  of 
Joseph  Bulger. 


188  ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IN    INO-ERSTATE    ClOMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  your  grand  jury  come  after  the  congressional 
investigation? 

Mr.  Kerner.  As  to  jwint  of  time,  I  would  say  they  were  almost 
simultaneous.  I  think  the  congressional  liearings  started  maybe  a  few 
days,  maybe  a  week  before,  about  that  period  of  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  Were  you  able  to  get  statistics  on  whether  the  Parole 
Board  made  a  practice  of  granting  paroles  over  the  objection  of  the 
trial  judge  and  the  prosecuting  officer? 

Mr.  Keener.  No.  I  have  no  experience  in  that  whatsoever.  I  don't 
know  what  tlieir  practice  is. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  the  two  members  of  the  Parole  Board  who 
came  before  the  grand  jury  have  to  say  about  it? 

Mr.  Kerner.  One  of  them,  Mr.  Rogers,  I  think  was  the  one  who  in- 
terviewed these  parolees.  He  had  been  assigned  the  circuit  for  that 
parole  hearing.  He  interviewed  them  and  said  he  made  his  report 
back.  Mr.  Monkiewicz,  the  other  member  of  the  Parole  Board,  did 
not  interview  them,  but  sat  in  at  the  time  the  i)arole  interviews  were 
considered  by  the  three  members  of  the  Parole  Board,  Judge  AVilson, 
Mr.  Rogers,  and  Mr.  Monkiewicz.  I  believe  he  comes  from  Con- 
necticut. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  they  conclude  that  the  case  for  parole  was  suffi- 
ciently strong  that  the  decision  of  the  judge  and  the  district  attorney 
should  be  overlooked  ?     Is  that  what  they  testified  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  I  don't  believe  any  such  question  was  asked,  in  my 
recollection.  I  did  not  sit  in  on  all  sessions  of  that  grand  jury,  so 
I  can't  be  positive,  but  my  recollection  is  that  they  were  not  asked^hat 
question.  But  I  did  sit  in  while  certain  questions  were  asked  as  to 
why  the  parole  was  granted;  and  a  summary,  just  the  sum  and  sub- 
stance of  their  testimony,  is  that  the  interview,  their  prison  record, 
their  parole  programs  were  sufficiently  good  to  merit  their  being 
granted  a  parole. 

Mr,  Robinson.  Weren't  they  interviewed  by  the  Chairman  of  the 
Board  himself,  Mr.  Kerner? 

Mr.  Kerner.  My  recollection  is  not ;  that  Mr.  Rogers  interviewed 
them.  ■  I  am  not  positive  of  that  at  this  point,  so  much  water  has  gone 
over  the  dam  since  then,  but  my  recollection  is  that  Mr.  Rogers  inter- 
viewed them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  think  the  Chairman  interviewed  them.  There  is  a 
transcript  of  his  interview  in  the  Holfman  hearings. 

Mr.  Kerner.  That  may  be  so. 

Mr.  Halley.  De  Lucia  testified,  as  I  recall  it,  that  Accardo  visited 
him  about  the  tax  case  rather  than  about  the  parole.  Does  that  jibe 
v.ith  the  testimony  before  the  grand  jury? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Yes.  As  I  recall,  De  Lucia  stated  that  Accardo  knew 
of  certain  of  his  lioldmgs,  and  was  there  to  assist  Mr.  Bernstein  and 
De  Lucia  m  the  preparation  of  tax  returns.  I  personally  didn't  believe 
that,  but  I  have  nothing  in  my  possession  or  reach  to  disprove  it 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  Mr.  Bernstein  testify  that  he  had  difficulty 
in  getting  his  questions  across  to  De  Lucia,  and  that  Mr.  Bulger  rec- 
ommended somebody  to  go  down  with  him  who  could  s])eak  ftalian? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Yes.  During  the  trial  of  the  case,  Bernstein  did 
make  the  statement  that  he  was  unable  to  understand  DeLucia's  lan- 
guage, his  pronunciation,  and  that  Mrs.  Campagna  got  Mr.  Accardo 
to  go  down  to  act  as  an  interpreter. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  189 

But  all  the  testimony  of  the  guards  in  the  trial  of  the  case,  and  the 
testimony  of  Bernstein  himself,  who  took  the  stand  in  that  case,  was 
that  all  tiie  exchange  of  ideas  or  words  was  all  in  the  English  language ; 
as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  while  Mr.  Bernstein  was  interviewing  Mr. 
DeLucia,  Accardo  was  talking  to  Campagna;  and  when  Bernstein 
was  interviewing  Campagna,  Accardo  was  conversing  with  DeLucia. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  wonder  if  probably  the  best  thing  to  do  would  be  for 
the  connnittee  to  apply  for  an  order  to  get  the  grand  jury  minutes, 
rather  than  putting  you  in  the  position  of  relying  on  your  recollection. 

Mr.  Kerner.  If  you  have  any  particular  points,  I  see  no  reason  why 
I  can't  look  at  mj^' grand  jury  minutes  to  refresh  my  recollection  so 
that  I  can  be  certain  of  details.  However,  as  to  whether  the  grand 
jury  minutes  can  be  released  to  the  committee  is  a  matter  solely  within 
thediscretion  of  the  Attorney  General.    By  law,  I  cannot  release  them. 

Mr.  HALLEy .  I  believe  even  if  he  agrees,  you  must  get  a  court  order, 
must  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  There  are  decisions  on  that ;  yes. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Perhaps  we  can  withhold  judgment  on  that  question 
and  work  in  cooperation  on  making  a  study  of  the  grand  jury  minutes 
ancl  the  record  of  the  congressional  investigation,  and  see  if  it  opens 
up  any  avenues  which  should  be  further  pursued  here. 

(Discussion  off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Halley.  Getting  back  on  the  record,  are  there  any  other  matters 
pertaining  to  law  enforcement  that  I  think  you  would  like  to  tell  the 
committee  about  at  this  time? 

Mr.  Kerner.  The  question  of  .narcotics  is  one  which  was  raised 
here  todav.  I  have  been  informed  unofficially  by  Mr.  August,  the 
agent  in  charge  of  the  Narcotic  Bureau  for  the  Midwest  area,  that  the 
use  of  heroin  has  increased  86  percent  in  the  Chicago  area.  A  year 
ago  last  June— June  of  1949— additional  narcotics  agents  were  brought 
into  this  area  and  worked  under  cover  June,  July,  and  so  forth,  up 
until  December,  the  week  end  just  before  Christmas  1949,  when  the 
zero  hour  was  set  and  Sergeant  Mangum  of  the  narcotic  detail,  Chicago 
Police  Department,  who  works  in  close  cooperation  with  the  Narcotic 
Bureau  of  the  Treasury  Department,  with  police  officers  went  out 
and  made  many  arrests  and  pick-ups.  That  night,  beginning  on 
Friday  evening,  by  Saturday  morning  at  around  8  or  9  or  10  o'clock, 
we  had  picked  up  approximately  180  narcotic  violators.  The  biggest 
violator  we  picked  up  was  a  chap  by  the  name  of  Filisho,  who  had 
counterfeiting  tie-ups  as  well  as  narcotic  tie-ups.  We  are  not  naive 
enough  to  believe  that  we  are  at  the  top  in  the  narcotic  situation,  but 
Filisho  we  believe  is  the  biggest  cog  that  we  picked  up  in  that  raid. 
There  is  no  tie-up  from  our  evidence  with  any  of  these  hoodlums  at 
this  point  in  the  narcotic  trade. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  How  did  vou  spell  his  name  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Filisho.  He  still  has  a  case  pending  here  in  tins 
court. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AVHiat  is  the  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  I  don't  recall  his  first  name. 

^.Iv.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  him  by  Fogge  or  Ben  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  I  doii't  know.  These  characters  have  so  many  names 
and  aliases  that  I  would  have  to  look  in  iny  repoi-ts  to  detennine  just 
what  familiar  names  are  attributed  to  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  where  he  lives  ? 


190  ORGANIZED    CRIME;   IN   INTERSTATE    C03VIMERCE 

]Mr.  Kerner.  Yes.  He  lived  on  the  West  Side  in  what  was  previ- 
ously  referred  to  as  one  of  the  river  wai'ds  on  the  West  Side. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  the  name  of  Isadore  Levin  come  into  that 
narcotic  situation? 

Mr.  Kerner.  That  sounds  familiar.  I  have  a  complete  list  of  them, 
but  I  can  look  over  it  to  determine  it  if  you  would  like  me  to.  because 
we  have  them  all  listed,  all  those  who  were  suspected  and  against 
whom  we  had  evidence  and  were  trying  to  i)ick  up.  I  have  a  complete 
list  on  them,  both  by  their  true  names  and  their  familiar  names  and 
their  aliases.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  see  no  reason  why  I  can't  get  a 
copy  of  that  and  just  turn  it  over  to  you  for  whatever  value  it  may  be. 
I  prepared  several  such  lists. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  do  you  think  we  might  find  concrete  activities 
of  this  Capone  syndicate  today,  bearing  in  mind  of  course  that  this 
committee  is  not  confined  to  law  violations  of  either  Federal  or  State 
law.  that  this  conunittee  has  the  right  to  ask  questions  which  a  witness 
might  be  entitled  to  refuse  to  answer  at  least  before  a  State  grand 
jury,  and  that  the  committee  has  the  right  to  jump  over  State  lines 
pretty  broadly. 

Mr.  Kerner.  After  the  little  experience  I  have  had  with  these 
people  I  have  certainly  concluded  in  my  own  mind  that,  other  than 
these  parolees  who  have  of  course  a  terrific  lot  hanging  over  their 
heads  if  they  refuse  to  answer  your  questions,  that  the  only  place  you 
might  find  evidence  of  it  is  among  the  hangers-on,  the  boys  around 
the  fringe.  It  has  been  my  experience  that  in  the  examination  of 
these  people  certain  hangers-on  who  are  not  too  smart  give  you  pearls 
that  you  can  follow  up.  That  is  the  way  we  found  out  the  tie-up  of, 
for  instance,  Tony  Gizzo  in  this  picture. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  you  suggest  any  candidates?  Or  would  you  like 
to  look  through  j^our" files? 

Mr.  Iverner.  No;  I  cannot.  However,  I  can  do  this:  There  are 
still  several  men  in  the  office,  several  assistant  United  States  attorneys 
who  were  here  at  the  time  of  the  Johnson-Skidmore  jury  investiga- 
tions and  prosecutions.  I  will  discuss  it  with  them  and  see  if  they 
have  any  certain  names  in  mind.  Of  course  in  our  grand  jury  hearing 
we  had  people  like  Corngold,  Heeney,  who  are  practicallv  passe.  I 
imagine,  in  this  picture. 

Mr.  Halley.  Isn't  Heeney  still  running  a  joint? 
Mr.  Kerner.  The  last  I  knew  of  Heeney  he  was  running  a  joint 
with  Corngold  that  previously  had  been  run  with  Campagna  on 
Cermak  Road  out  near  Austin,  I  think  5800-something,  I  think  a 
bowling  alley  and  a  book.  Heeney  to  me  at  the  time  appeared  to  be 
a  very  sick  man  and  fading  away.  As  we  saw  him  from  month  to 
month  we  could  practically  see  him  fading  away.  I  don't  know  what 
his  physical  condition  or  mental  condition  is  at  the  present  time. 
I  haven't  seen  him  since  that  time. 

We  also  had  Jones  in  before  us,  who  had  admittedly  been  a  partner 
of  Hymie  Levin  and  another  name  of  a  partner.  Phil  Katz,  in  a  wire 
service.  They  had  their  offices  on  State  Street  between  Lake  and 
Randolph  Streets  somewhere. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  R  &  H  Publishing  Co. 

Mr.  Kerner.  That  is  right.  And  there  is  also  an  office  on  Lake 
Street  around  the  600  block,  where  we  traced  certain  telephone  calls 


ORGAKIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  191 

tliat  looked  rather  suspicious.  These  people  were  quite  frank  in 
telling  us  what  their  business  was,  who  their  partners  were,  what 
their  wire  business  consisted  of,  where  their  wires  went  to,  and  what 
they  received  in  the  way  of  rental  for  the  service. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  didn't  implicate,  however,  any  of  the  Capone 
syndicate  members,  did  they? 

Mr.  Kerner.  I  am  not  quite  certain  exactly  who  you  mean  by  tlie 
Capone  syndicate  figures.  If  we  are  talking  about  the  same  thing, 
the  names  that  are  mentioned  in  the  newspapers,  yes,  Hymie  Levin 
is  supposed  to  be  in  that  crowd,  Corngokl,  Campagna,  DeLucia,  Gioe, 
D'Andrea's  name  is  listed  among  that  group. 

JNIr.  Hallet.  They  say  they  have  no  business  now  at  all,  Gioe  and 
Campagna  and  Ricca.     Are  they  supposed  to  be  in  this  wire  service? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Xo.  They  w^ere  never  reputed  to  be  in  the  wire 
service.  The  only  one  who  was  tied  up  witli  the  wire  service  in  any 
way  was  at  the  end  of  a  wire  service,  running  a  book  in  Cicero  with 
Heeney  and  Corngokl. 

That  was  the  end  of  the  line  so  far  as  the  wire  service  is  concerned 
because  that  was  the  place  where  they  took  bets  and  supposedly 
paid  off. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Have  you  any  questions? 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Along  that  line,  Mr.  Kerner,  did  you  ever  run  into 
anj'thing  that  indicated  that  instead  of  being  interested  solely  in 
Avhat  came  out  the  other  end  of  the  line,  they  were  interested  in  con- 
trolling the  beginning  of  the  line? 

Mr.  Keener.  No;  there  was  no  indication  from  anything  that  we 
found. 

Campagna,  of  course,  when  he  was  in,  freely  admitted  that  he  at  one 
time  ran  slot  machines  before  he  was  tried  and  sentenced.  As  a  mat- 
ter of  fact,  investigations  of  his  income-tax  returns  showed  a  return 
of  income  from  slot  machines  as  well  as  the  bookie  establishment, 
which  is  probably  common  knowledge  to  the  committee  by  this  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Either  on  or  off  the  record,  would  you  care  to  com- 
ment as  to  the  extent  of  the  cooperation  or  lack  of  cooperation  be- 
tween the  local  law-enforcement  officials  here,  the  sheriff's  office,  the 
State's  attorney's  office,  the  commissioner  of  police's  office  ? 

Mr.  Keener.  The  only  thing  I  know  of,  and  this  is  on  the  record, 
is  of  course  what  I  read  in  the  newspapers.  I  have  no  personal  knowl- 
edge whatsoever.  I  know  at  any  time  I  have  requested  anything  of 
the  Chicago  Police  Department,  I  have  received  their  full  coopera- 
tion as  well  as  from  the  State's  attorney's  office,  as  I  say,  the  local 
police.  The  only  matter  which  I  have  had  which  directly  affected  the 
sheriff  was  the  turn-over  of  prisoners,  which  was  a  peculiar  set  of 
circumstances  in  this  Brinks  murder  case,  and  the  sheriff  was  cooper- 
ative with  the  Federal  Government  in  that.  But  in  any  direct  request 
that  I  have  had  to  any  law-enforcing  agenc}^  in  this  vicinity,  we  have 
received  their  full  cooperation,  even  to  the  degree  of  letting  us  have 
records,  confidential  files,  and  things  of  that  nature. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  not  speaking  so  much  of  their  cooperation  with 
you  but  of  their  cooperation  among  themselves. 

Mr.  Iverner.  The  only  thing  I  know,  as  I  said  before,  is  what  I 
have  read  in  the  newspapers,  which  you  have  heard  here  today,  of 
the  State's  attorney  writing  letters  to  the  sheriff  and  the  sheriff  writing 
letters  to  the  State's  attorney.    In  my  recollection,  since  I  have  been 


192  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INiTERSTATE    CiOMMERCE 

an  adult,  I  don't  recall  that  there  has  been  ever,  shall  I  say,  the  fric- 
tion between  the  sheriff's  office  and  the  State's  office  as  there  has 
been  in  recent  years,  where  the  State's  attorney  has  been  required 
to  go  out  and  actually  do  the  sheriff's  work. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  any  views  on  the  arithmetic  of  the  situa- 
tion which  indicates  that  the  sheriff  did  pick  up  something  like  1,400 
slot  machines,  and  the  State's  attorney  with  the  aid  of  75  policemen 
was  able  to  pick  up  only  500  more,  which  of  course  is  a  substantial 
number.  The  arithmetic  doesn't  seem  to  be  too  much  of  an  indication 
of  the  sheriff's  falling  down  unless  there  are  certain  other  factors. 

Mr.  Keener.  Let  me  say  this :  It  is  my  recollection  that  not  many 
slot  machines  were  picked  up  by  the  sheriff's  office  until  the  newspaper? 
began  putting  the  heat  on  him,  so  to  speak,  and  that  the  State's  attor- 
ney, of  course,  if  we  want  to  put  it  on  an  arithmetical  basis,  the  State's 
attorney  has  been  doing  it  for  a  period,  as  I  recall,  of  roughly  a  year 
and  a  half.  The  sheriff  has  been  in  office  for  practically  his  full  terra 
of  almost  4  years.  Certainly  in  my  time  the  State's  attorney  has  not 
been  doing  much  of  that.  That  always  has  been  considered,  in  my 
mind  as  a  citizen  and  a  lawyer,  the  sheriff's  job  rather  than  the  State's 
attorney's  job.  However,  I  am  not  familiar  with  the  full  details  and 
the  full  powers  of  each  of  the  offices.  I  find  that  this  office  here  rather 
ties  me  up  and  keeps  me  busy. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  am  sure  it  does. 

Anything  further?     Mr.  Cahn,  do  you  have  any  questions? 

Mr.  Caiin.  If  I  may,  just  a  few  brief  questions  following  up  Mr. 
Robinson's. 

Mr.  Kerner,  I  am  wondering — you  heard  the  sheriff's  comments  to 
the  effect  that  there  might  be  some  merit  in  this  idea  of  consolidation 
of  the  forces,  the  sheriff's  force,  the  State's  attorney  force,  and  so  on. 
Just  speaking  offhand,  w^ould  you  say  that  there  would  also  be  merit 
in  that  consolidation  proposal  ?    Is  there  overlapping  and  duplication  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Yes;  definitely.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  am  a  member 
of  the  criminal  law  committee  of  the  Chicago  Bar  and  Illinois  Bar 
Associations.  That  question  has  arisen  there  among  us,  but,  of  course, 
we  all  feel  rather  helpless  and  hopeless  until  something  is  done  about 
our  State  constitution,  because  it  wasn't  until  recently  that  within  the 
city  of  Chicago  the  parks  were  run  by  the  State  of  Illinois.  I  have 
forgotten  how  many  different  corporations  there  were  wdthin  the  city 
of  Chicago ;  in  other  words,  a  separate  corporation  for  each  park. 
Those  were  consolidated  only  recently. 

There  is  presently  pending  or  will  be  pending  before  the  voters  of 
the  State  of  Illinois  what  is  commonly  called  Gateway  amendment, 
which  amended  a  law — by  the  way,  I  also  am  serving  on  that  commit- 
tee of  the  Chicago  Bar  Association,  the  constitutional  amendment 
committee,  now  called  presently  the  Gateway  committee — an  amend- 
ment to  the  Illinois  Constitution  which  will  allow  three  articles  of 
the  constitution  to  be  amended  in  any  one  legislative  session.  Under 
our  law  here  our  legislature  meets  only  in  the  odd  years  or  once  in  2 
years,  unless  a  special  session  is  called,  and,  of  course,  there  has  to  be 
some  crying,  important,  immediate  need  before  a  special  session  is 
called  by  the  Governor.  You  can  appreciate  that  with  Cook  County 
up  here  and  even  Lake  County,  north  of  us,  considered  in  a  down- 
State  bloc,  there  has  been  this  friction  in  the  State  legislature  that 
prevents  good  legislation  from  being  passed.     I  think  just  as  soon  as 


ORGA^•IZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMJVIERCE  193 

the  voters  agree  that  the  Gateway  amendment  is  a  good  thing  and 
then  the  voters  join  together  to  insist  upon  consolidation  of  forces,  I 
think  law  enforcement  will  be  in  a  better  state  of  repair  than  it  is  now. 
There  are  too  many  overlapping  jurisdictions  and  duties,  m  my 
opinion. 

Mr.  Cahx.  Would  you  also  have  some  comments,  Mr.  Kerner,  on 
the  subject  of  the  patronage  nature  of  the  sheriff's  office?  Would  you 
concur  in  what  the  sheriff  said  about  the  importance  of  putting  that 
on  a  civil-service  basis  ? 

Mv.  Kerxer.  I  am  not  certain  in  my  own  mind  that  civil  service  is 
the  answer  to  all  evil,  frankly.  I  can  see  a  lot  of  good  in  civil  service. 
I  can  see  evil  in  it.  I  think  it  was  demonstrated  here  today  in  the 
police  department.  The  mayor  is  frustrated  in  what  he  can  do  with 
a  captain  he  doesn't  like  or  a  captain  in  whom  he  does  not  have  com- 
plete confidence.  I  think  that  is  one  of  the  disadvantages  of  civil 
service.  However,  I  think  a  good  public  official  is  one  who  chooses 
his  personnel  properly  on  the  sole  basis  of  "Is  he  the  best  person"  or 
"Is  she  the  best  woman  to  fill  a  vacancy  in  a  certain  job."  I  think 
without  civil  service,  you  can  get  just  as  good  if  not  better  people  in 
the  various  jobs.  Patronage,  spoils  of  war,  of  course,  has  been  one 
of  the  costly  items  of  our  democracy,  regardless  of  what  party  is  m 
power,  and  I  think  we  all  freely  and  honestly  admit  that.  In  my 
office,  for  instance,  approximately  two-thirds  of  my  staff  is  under 
Federal  civil  service.  All  the  attorneys  in  my  office  are  appointees. 
They  are  appointed  by  the  Attorney  General  of  the  United  States. 
I  think  that  the  lawyers  in  my  office  are  very  able  young  men.  They 
are  honest,  thev  are  sincere,  they  are  aggressive,  and  intelligent.  I 
have  never  heard  any  criticism  against  any  of  the  people  m  my  office. 
They  are  not  civil  service.  .  tt  •     i 

Of  course,  the  reward  for  doing  a  good  job  as  an  assistant  United 
States  attorney  I  admit  is  probablv  greater  than  that  of  being  a  process 
server  in  the  sheriff's  office,  and  I  don't  think  you  can  compare  one 
against  the  other.  But  I  can  see  advantages  and  disadvantages,  and 
I'^would  say  one  of  the  major  disadvantages  is  if  an  office  is  put  under 
civil  service,  I  think  you  can  bet  your  bottom  dollar  that  all  the  people 
who  will  qualify  for  civil  service  during  that  period  of  time  will  be 
members  of  the  party  in  power.  I  don't  think  any  of  us  are  naive 
enough  not  to  recognize  that  fact.  .  ■,     -,  , 

Mr.  Cahn.  Since  your  father  is  one  of  the  distinguished  members 
of  the  bench  of  this  area,  I  wonder  if  the  judges  of  this  area  have 
ever  presented  a  formal  recommendation  for  improving  the  admin- 
istration of  justice. 

Mr.  I^RNER.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  think  that  is  done  constantly  m 
the  Federal  system  because  of  the  judicial  conferences  which  are  held 
each  year,  and  I  think  any  of  us  who  are  familiar  at  all  with  the 
Federal  practice  and  the  judiciary  system  knows  that  they  constantly 
are  improving.  I  cite  for  example  the  improvement  in  the  civil  and 
criminal  rules,  the  passage  of  the  new  judiciary  act,  which  was  really 
done  in  combination  with  lawyers  who  practice  in  the  Federal  juris- 
diction, and  the  jndges.  Yes;  I  think  that  conferences  of  that  sort 
always  lend  toward  improvement  and  simplification. 

Mr  Caiin.  Mr.  Kerner,  how  does  the  Illinois  area,  the  United 
States  attorney's  office,  differ  from  other  areas?  We  presume  of 
course  there  is  more  crime,  more  violent  crime,  and  so  on,  but  I  wonder 


194  ORGANIZED    CRIME;    IN   IXrTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

if  you  would  state  from  your  knowledge  of  the  problems  faced  by 
other  United  States  attorneys,  w^ierein  your  problems  differ  in  degree 
or  in  nature  from  theirs? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Oh,  I  suppose  if  we  were  to  make  a  comparison  of 
that— and  this  is  just  my  opinion,  and  I  have  seen  no  figures  and  facts 
on  it.  I  draw  my  conclusion  from  conversations  with  other  United 
States  attorneys  visiting  with  tliem  at  the  United  States  attorneys' 
conference  and  the  problems  that  thev  raise  at  the  conference.  Our 
problems  are  all  relatively  the  same  in  the  Federal  jurisdiction.  When 
I  say  all  I  am  speaking  of  course  primarily  of  jurisdictions  such  as 
New  York,  Philadelphia,  San  Francisco,  Los  Angeles,  and  large  urban 
areas.  I  thiiik  our  problems  are  rather  similar.  I  realize,  of  course, 
that  in  Texas  they  will  probably  have  more  immigration  and  naturali- 
zation problems  than  we  have  here  in  Chicago.  I  realize  that  in  San 
Francisco  or  Los  Angeles  or  New  York  they  will  have  more  immigra- 
tion problems  than  1  will.  They  will  have^nore  admiralty  problems. 
They  may  have  smuggling  problems,  which  of  course  don't  confront 
us  here  m  the  Chicago  area,  except  on  rare  occasions.  I  don't  believe 
that  they  have  any  more  or  any  less  proportionately  income  taxes,  mail 
frauds,  or  other  violations  of  Federal  statutes. 

Mr.  Cahn.  In  connection  with  Mr.  Robinson's  comments  on  fric- 
tions between  the  State's  attorney's  office  and  the  sheriff's  office,  I 
w^onder  to  what  extent  that  might  be  due  to  the  fact  that  the  men  are  of 
opposite  political  parties. 

Mr.  Keener.  I  don't  know  Sheriff  Walsh  very  well.  I  have  known 
John  Boyle,  of  course,  since  a  young  man.  I  would  say  I  have  known 
John  Boyle  for  20  or  23  years.  I  have  always  had  the  highest  regard 
for  Mr.  Boyle,  and  I  know  little  or  nothing  about  Sheriff  Walsh.  I 
don't  know  hoM^  much  of  this  is  a  political  fight,  if  at  all.  I  don't 
know  how  much  is  really  based  upon  inefficiency,  alleged  inefficiency. 
I  don't  know.  I  think  if  I  make  any  comment  it  probably  might  be 
an  unfair  comment  to  the  sheriff. 

Mr.  Halley.  Off  the  record. 

(Off  the  record.) 

Mr.  Cahn.  I  have  just  one  last  question,  and  I  want  to  thank  Mr. 
Ilalley  for  the  opportunity  of  asking  these  questions  in  the  first  ]^lace 
and  thank  you  for  your  patience  in  answering  them.  You  are  a  World 
AVar  II  veteran  with  a  very  fine  record.  I  was  just  wondering  to  what 
extent  members  of  the  mob  are  of  the  newer  generation,  possibly  World 
War  II  veterans  in  some  instances,  or  whether  most  of  the  strong- 
arm  men  or  the  higher-ups  don't  perhaps  represent  the  older  genera- 
tion, the  between-wars  men  or  immigrants,  or  just  to  what  extent  there 
are  young  people  today  associated  with  the  mob  in  high  or  low  capaci- 
ties. That  is  a  general  question  that  covers  a  lot  of  people,  and  the 
mob  IS  a  very  general  term.  I  was  wondering  if  you  might  have  some 
comments  on  that. 

Mr.  Kerner.  First,  I  might  argue  with  you  about  my  good  war 
record.  I  just  happened  to  be  in  for  a  great  many  years.  My  per- 
sonal experiences  as  United  States  attorney  is  that  we  find  very  little 
difficulty  with  young  men  who  have  been  in  the  services.  The  only 
difficulty  we  have  had  with  them  in  our  office,  I  think,  has  been  one 
bank  embezzlement  case  and  the  balance  almost  completely  have  been 
fraud  cases  against  the  United  States  Government  under  the  52-20 


ORGANIZED    CROIE.   IX   INITERSTATE    OOIVIMERCE  195 

or  the  GI  bill  of  rights,  obtaining  subsistence  money  and  Avilfully 
represented  they  weren't  working. 

As  to  the  balance  of  your  question,  of  course  all  these  people  we 
haA-e  been  speaking  of  generally  here  are  men  who  are  in  their  late 
forties,  fifties,  and  sixties.  They  were  young  men  during  the  prohi- 
bition days  Avhen  the  Capone  group  of  course  was  very  acti\'e.  I 
don't  know  the  names  of  any  relatively  young  men  who  you  could 
tie  up  in  any  way  with  these  individuals  about  whom  we  have  been 
speaking.  Surely  I  can  go  down  the  list  of  names  and  point  out  where 
they  have  been  in  any  out  of  trouble  constantly,  but  I  don't  think 
there  is  any  tie-up  whatsoever  between  those  men  and  the  men  about 
whom  we  are  speaking.  They  are  just  young  toughs,  they  are  hold-up 
men,  they  are  strong-arm  men,  and  I  think  perhaps  on  occasion  they 
brag  they  are  a  part  of  the  Capone  mob  when  as  a  matter  of  fact  they 
are  too  inexperienced,  shall  I  say,  and  get  into  trouble  so  often  that 
I  aan  sure  if  there  was  a  Capone  mob  they  would  have  no  part  of 
these  individuals,  because  you  take  the  people  about  whom  we  are 
speaking,  they  live  rather  nice  lives  on  the  surface.  Their  homes  are 
well  kept.    Thev  are  quiet.    They  don't  get  into  trouble. 

In  our  invest"^ gation  before  the  grand  jury  we  obtained  income-tax 
returns  of  many  of  these  people.  We  did  not  look  at  the  income  tax 
of  any  person  that  we  had  before  our  grand  jury  who  did  not  have 
a  very  able  auditor  or  certified  public  accountant  to  take  care  ot  their 
tax  matters.  Apparently  they  have  learned  the  lesson  of  Al  Capone 
and  are  not  going  to  get  caught  cheating  Uncle  Sam.  In  my  own 
mind  I  believe  that  perhaps  they  don't  return  all  their  income,  but 
I  sav  to  you  that  I  doubt  that  I  can  prove  that  they  received  any  more 
income  than  that  that  they  returned  on  their  income-tax  return. 

Otherwise,  these  people  keep  out  of  the  way  of  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment, generally  speaking.  .     ,      ■     .        i 

JNIr.  Cahn.  Mr.  Halley  has  been  laying  the  historic  basis  for  the 
pvocont  conditions  of  crime  in  the  old  prohibition  days,  and  I  think 
that  your  answer  serves  to  confirm  the  fact  that  the  historic  basis  of 
])resent  crime  is  very  important  indeed,  because  we  will  find  figures 
who  were  small  then  who  have  since  emerged.  Fortunately,  not  too 
many  members,  if  any,  of  the  younger  generation  have  emerged  thus 
far  in  major  positions  in  crime  or  for  that  matter,  major  positions. 

^Ir  Keener.  I  might  say  along  that  line,  which  may  or  may  not  be 
of  interest  to  the  committee,  that  a  year  ago  last  month  a  crime  pre- 
vention council  was  formed  here  in  the  city  of  Chicago.  The  members 
of  that  executive  committee  consist  of  the  mayor,  the  law-enforcing 
ao-ents  in  Cook  County,  and  the  Governor.  It  is  surprising  the  eltect 
and  the  progress  it  has  made  in  1  year's  time.  Of  course  it  is  an 
ethereal  type  of  thing.  It  is  metaphysical.  You  cannot  tell  now  nor 
20  years  from  now  will  we  be  able  to  tell  whether  we  did  any  good,  it 
any  at  all.  But  the  purpose  of  that  council  is  to  go  before  young  peo- 
ple's o-roups  such  as  we  did  last  Friday  at  the  Farragut  School  on  the 
Westl5ide,  the  area  in  which  I  was  born  and  raised,  and  to  point  out  to 
these  vonncr  people  the  follv  of  thinking  that  because  they  are  strong- 
arm  vouiK' kids  getting  into  trouble,  will  lead  them  anywhere  except  to 
a  bad  lot"  That  type  of  committee  did  not  exist  when  I  was  a  young 
boy,  and  perhaps  it  is  a  step  in  the  right  direction,  instead  of  just  hav- 
ing juvenile  committees  to  chase  boys  and  who  after  they  get  into 
trSuble  try  to  do  something.     The  purpose  of  this  group  is  to  try  to 


196  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    ClOMMERCE 

point  out  the  way  to  these  young  people  before  they  get  into  trouble. 
In  my  experience  in  going  around  and  watching  these  meetings,  in 
watching  the  young  people,  certainly  at  least  for  the  time  they  are 
m  there  they  seem  to  be  vitally  interested  and  we  do  hope  that  we  will 
have  some  effect  on  the  younger  generation,  and  we  hope  we  won't 
have  young  people  today  who  will  be  big  mobsters  and  hoodlums  10, 
15,  20,  or  30  years  from  now. 
Mr.  Cahn.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Halley. 
Mr.  Halley.  Anything  else  ? 

Mr.  KoBiNsoN.  I  have  one  final  question,  Mr.  Kerner. 
Would  you  care  to  make  any  observation  to  the  stature  or  caliber 
of  the  occupants  of  the  local  court,  the  local  bench  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  I  think  for  the  most  part,  most  of  the  judges  in  our 
local  courts  are  good  judges.  There  are  some  of  course  that  I  don't 
think  are  very  good  and  as  a  matter  of  fact  I  don't  believe  should  be 
sitting  on  the  bench.  But  as  long  as  you  have  elected  judges  and  as 
long  as  you  have  the  swing  from  party  to  party,  and  you  may  have  an 
overwhelming  victory,  bad  men  are  elected  to  the  bench,  yes.  But 
taking  them  as  a  whole,  I  would  be  willing  to  try  a  case  before  any 
of  them  and  I  would  have  no  question  about  their  integrity  what- 
soever. I  practiced  in  the  local  courts  from  1934  until  1941  when  I 
went  in  the  service  and  when  I  came  back  I  again  practiced  before 
them.  For  the  most  part  I  would  say  their  integrity  is  above  question. 
Mr.  Halley.  Just  two  matters.  Is  there  full  cooperation  between 
the  various  Federal  investigative  agencies  at  this  time? 
]Mr.  Kerner.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Could  any  further  cooperation  be  implemented,  or  is 
there  real  coordination  at  this  stage  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  There  is  real  coordination.  Any  time  we  request  any- 
thing we  get  their  full  cooperation,  I  made  it  one  of  the  precepts  of  the 
operation  of  my  office  that  all  agency  personnel  will  be  treated  with 
respect  and  courtesy  as  soon  as  they  come  in  the  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  there  free  exchange  of  information  among  the 
various  Federal  agencies  ? 

Mr.  Kerner.  Yes,  if  requested.  There  can't  be  a  free  flow  of  infor- 
mation every  day,  let  me  say,  because  that  would  probably  so  choke 
us  up  that  we  couldn't  take  care  of  our  primary  dutv.  As  a  matter 
of  fact,  some  time  ago  I  think  at  the  time  of  the  organization  of  this 
committee,  we  received  a  request  from  the  Attorney  General  for  the 
United  States  attorneys  to  call  in  the  various  investigative  agencies  for 
a  conference.  We  had  a  list  of  names  and  asked  whether  they  had  any 
information,  factual  or  otherwise,  in  their  files.  That  information  was 
turned  over  to  us,  which  we  then  turned  over  to  the  Department  of 
Justice.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  they  probably  gave  us  more  information 
than  could  be  useful  to  you.  It  perhaps  becomes  a  burden.  I  find 
them  always  free.  The  name  Felisio  came  up.  There  is  cooperation 
between  the  Secret  Service  and  the  Narcotics  Bureau  as  to  Felisio.  We 
had  another  defendant  here  who  was  indicted  under  three  different 
sections  of  the  law.  One  law  was  counterfeiting  sugar  stamps,  coun- 
terfeiting money,  and  what  was  the  third  one  ?  I  have  forgotten  for 
the  moment.  But  they  covered  three  different  agencies,  and  there  was 
free  interchange  of  information  among  them  and  in  our  office,  also 
in  the  preparation  of  the  case  and  in  the  investigative  reports. 
Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 
(Discussion  off  the  record.) 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  197 

STATEMENT  OF  FREDERICK  PRETZIE,  JR.,  ADMINISTRATIVE 
ASSISTANT,  CHICAGO  CRIME  COMMISSION 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Pretzie,  you  are  associated  Avith  the  Crime  Com- 
mission of  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  The  Chicago  Crime  Commission,  as  achninistrative 
assistant. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  had  charge  of  the  so-called  crime  commission  bills 
on  criminal  procedure? 

j\Ir.  Pretzie.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  During  what  session  of  the  legislature  of  Illinois  was 
that  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  was  the  last  session  in  1949.  I  wasn't  too  active 
at  the  session  before,  in  1947. 

JNIr.  Halley.  You  have  a  file  relating  to  your  detailed  observations 
of  the  1949  sessions  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  complete  this  file  contemporaneously  with  the 
events?  I  have  thumbed  through  the  file  and  I  note  that  you  state 
your  specific  reasons  for  believing  that  each  specific  member  of  both 
the  committee  and  the  legislature  voted  as  he  did,  is  that  correct  ? 

ISlr.  Pretzie.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  note  that  you  referred  to  certain  offers  of  bribes  to 

you. 

]Mr.  Prktzie.  No,  they  weren't  made  personally  to  me.  The  bribes 
were  made  to  members  of  the  legislature. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wasn't  there  at  least  a  threat  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes.  I  was  threatened.  It  came  about  in  this  way. 
I  didn't  consider  that  very  seriously.  During  one  of  the  recesses  of 
the  legislature,  as  I  was  going  up  the  aisle  and  Euzzino  said,  "How 
much  is  the  crime  commission  paying  you  to  come  down  here  to  get 
these  bills  passed  ? " 

I  answered  that  the  question  was  irrelevant,  and  put  the  question 
as  to  why  he  inquired. 

He  said,  "I  just  wonder  if  we  can't  pay  you  more  than  the  crime 
commission  is  paying  you  to  keep  you  the  hell  away  from  here." 

I  said,  "Any  amount  of  money  you  fellows  can  offer  me  couldn't 
keep  me  awav  from  here." 

Then  I  had  some  other  encounters ;  one  with  a  man  who  has  since 
withdrawn  from  the  legislature.  He  was  renominated  and  would  have 
been  elected,  but  asked  that  his  name  be  withdrawn,  John  D'Arco. 
He  said  to  me  upon  one  occasion — and  this  was  all  designed  to  heckle, 
rankle,  and  discredit  me.  I  have  been  in  the  business  a  long  time  and 
I  am  pretty  thickskinned.  He  said,  "I  understand  you  are  down  here 
offering  the  members  of  the  house  $500  to  vote  for  these  bills." 

I  told  him  of  course  that  that  was  ridiculous,  that  we  didn't  operate 
that  way. 

I  said,  "That  is  more  than  I  can  say  for  you  when  you  call  your 
cohorts  down  here.     We  don't  operate  that  way.     You  probably  do." 

Then  on  another  occasion  Mr.  D'Arco  encountered  me  as  I  was  about 
to  enter  the  judiciary  committee.  Most  of  these  fellows  who  sit  in 
the  house  who  are  under  discussion  now  are  huddled.  Their  seats 
in  the  house  are  segregated  more  or  less  in  a  certain  particular  area 


198  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

there.  Here  is  Granata  and  here  is  Adducci,  and  Euzzino  over  here 
Petrone  is  down  oyer  liere.  D'Arco  sits  across  the  aisle,  a  short  dis- 
tance removed.  Ihere  is  one  other  man  wliose  name  I  should  recall— 
Kmella— who  sits  along  the  same  section  of  seats  there 

I  had  occasion  to  walk  up  the  aisle  during  one  of  the  recesses  and 
taJked  to  a  certain  man  there,  and  some  uncomplimentarv  thiiio-  was 
said  to  me  that  I  resented,  and  I  replied  in  kind.  We  didn't  acSiallv 
come  to  blows  at  that  time.  It  was  a  pretty  heated  discussion.  I 
said  something  to  D'Arco  that  he  didn't  like,  and  a  day  or  two  later 
as  1  was  going  into  the  judiciary  committee  he  took  occasion  to  collar 
me  and  threatened  to  punch  me  in  the  nose.  I  told  him  I  didn't  think 
that  was  the  place  to  create  a  disturbance,  that  if  we  were  down  on  the 
street  away  from  the  committee  hearings  I  might  be  able  to  give  him 
a  contest  but  I  didn't  there,  I  didn't  think  that  was  the  proper  place 

He  said,  '  You  told  me  to  do  somethings"  In  other  words,  to  put 
It  m  the  record,  he  said,  "Ah,  I  ought  to  punch  you  in  the  nose." 

I  said,  "What  for  ?" 

He  said,  "You  told  me  to  kiss  your ." 

I  said  "You  are  mistaken.  That  wasn't  the  sentence  I  used  I 
told  you  to  go  jump  in  the  lake." 

So  I  said,  "Just  get  your  dago  temper  down.  This  is  no  place  to 
create  a  scene."  And  I  pushed  him  awav  and  walked  away  from 
him. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  gather  there  was  a  lot  of  acrimony. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  didn't  know  whether  vou  were'leading  up  to  that 
or  not.  '^ 

Mr.  Halley.  What  I  was  leading  up  to  was  just  this :  In  goino- 
tiirough  that  written  statement  it  appears  to  be  in  great  detail  and  I 
wondered  whether  you  could  state,  in  order  to  save  time  now,  whether 
the  written  statement  is  a  record  you  made  contemporaneou'slv  of  all 
the  events  in  detail. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right,  that  is  right.  Incidentally,  as  you  will 
observe  by  reading  that,  I  dictated  it.  It  was  for  the  chairman  of  the 
legislative  committee,  Mr.  Thomas  Mulroy,  as  a  report  to  the  commit- 
tee, but  it  IS  my  report,  my  language,  and  I  prepared  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  facts' as  stated  in  the  report  are  true? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  correct ;  yes. 

Mr.  Hvlley.  I  think  for  the  committee's  record  and  for  present 
purposes  the  report  will  be  accepted  and  speak  for  itself  in  view  of 
your  testimony  about  it.  So  would  vou  therefore  at  this  time  state 
the  conclusions  relating  to  the  reasons  why  the  bill  was  defeated  oivino- 
simply  111  conclusion  form  the  blocs  against  it  and  their  reasoris  for 
opposing  it. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  The  reasons  for  opposing  it  is  because  they  have  a 
close  affinity  I  would  say  over  the  years,  and  association,  some  of  these 
members  who  constitute  this  West  Side  bloc,  with  members  of  the 
Capone  syndicate,  many  of  whom  I  knew  in  my  early  days,  havin,^ 
come  from  that  particular  area  in  which  they  were  spawned.  The 
syndicate,  it  is  my  conclusion,  had  most  to  lose  and  probably  would 
be  more  amenable  to  these  laws  than  the  average  individual,"  obscure 
individual  would,  a  minor  offender,  because  the  bills  were  designed 
primarily  of  a  nuclei  of  the  representatives  from  the  liver  wardl^;  is 
for  the  extension  of  the  grand  jury  and  the  immunity  bill. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  199 

Mr  H\Li.r.Y.  I  leather  that  the  bloc  opposinoj  the  bill  consisted 
primarily  of  a  nucfei  of  the  representatives  from  the  river  wards ;  is 
that  riaht? 

:^Ir.  Pketzu:.  That  is  ri<j;ht.  .  ,  -.   , 

JNlr.  Hallfa'.  They  obtained  the  cooperation  of  a  group  of  down- 
State  leoislators  of  both  parties ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mr  Pretzie    That  is  right,  both  Eepublicans  and  Democrats. 
},Ii-.*  IIalley.  On  V.  Iiat  basis  was  the  trade  made  to  get  the  support 
of  the  down-State  legislators?  .,        .         .  ^.  ..-, 

Mr  Pretzie.  There  were  several  considerations  m  connection  with 
the  trade  For  instance,  there  is  a  bloc  of  Negro  legislators  down 
there  The  Negroes  were  interested  in  having  enacted  the  fair-em- 
ployment practices  bill.  So  the  Italian  bloc,  you  must  appreciate,  m 
their  relationships  and  in  their  work,  are  bipartisan  m  this  respex^t: 
They  don't  respect  anv  party  lines.  I  mean  for  the  purpose  of  the 
record  one  may  be  elected  on  the  Democratic  ticket  and  another  may 
be  elected  to  the  Republican  ticket,  but  for  their  own  selfish  purposes 
they  combine  and  confederate  and  constitute  a  solid  bloc.  They  will 
make  their  deals  and  trades  depending  on  what  legislation  they  are 
primarily  interested  in  having  enacted  or  what  legislation  they  want 
to  have  defeated.  , 

]Mr  H ALLEY  I  have  noticed  in  your  report  you  very  carefully  and 
in  oreat  detail  take  it  legislator  by  legislator  and  have  given  the  rea- 
soiS  why  he  voted  for  or  against  the  bill. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right.  .  .       .      ,         , 

Mv  H\LLEY.  So  supplementing  that,  summarizing  it,  the  only  ques- 
tion I  am  asking  now  is,  in  addition  to  the  people  who  were  willing  to 
trade  in  order  to  get  suj^ix^rt  for  FEPC,  which  for  one  reason  or  an- 
other they  might  have  considered  of  more  immediate  importance,  what 
other  support^'was  marshaled  and  what  trades  were  made  to  get  it? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  They  made  trades  on  the  constitutional  convention 
bill  tliat  the  administration,  the  Governor  was  very  much  interested  in. 
They  held  the  balance  of  power  in  the  house,  this  Italian  bloc. 
Mv  Halley.  The  Governor  didn't  trade  with  him,  did  he? 
I^Ir.  Pretzie.  No.  He  refused.  They  didn't  approach  him  directly, 
but  indirectly  he  was  approached  in  an  attempt  to  make  a  deal  with 
him  if  he  would  sell  himself  out  on  the  support  of  the  crime  commis- 
sion bills  they  would  sup])ort  the  constitutional  convention  resolution. 
The  Governor  refused  to  become  party  to  any  such  deal  or  overture. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  members  of  the  legislature  make  such  a  deal, 
thou^^h,  without  the  Governor's  agreement?  In  other  words,  what  I 
am  trying  to  find  out  is,  how  did  they  marshal  enough  votes  to  lick 

this  thing?  .        r.  ^    i  ^^^ 

Mr.  Pretzie.  You  must  appreciate  this.  Some  of  these  men,  like 
Pete  Granata,  who  has  been  down  in  the  legislature  for  many  years, 
and  Adduci,  who  has  been  down  there  several  years,  and  Euzzmo  who 
has  been  down  there  several  terms,  have  developed  through  the  knack 
of  ingratiating  themselves  through  the  lavish  expenditure  of  money 
.and  entertainment  and  favors  that  they  are  in  a  position  to  extend  to 
their  colleagues  in  the  legislature;  and  in  connection  with  the  trading 
on  certain  bills  with  members  of  the  legislature  there  are  devious  and 
many  ways  in  vdiich  thev  can  gain  support  either  for  or  against  a 
bill. "  It  has  been  said,  and  I  think  it  is  probably  true,  I  would  say,  that 
they  control  approximately  25  votes  in  that  house. 


200  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

]\Ir.  Halley.  Cun't  you  <;ive  any  more  concrete  statement  of  the 
deals  that  were  made  to  get  the  vote?  It  is  detailed  in  the  record 
and  if  yon  prefer  to  stand  on  your  statement  that  is  all  right. 

Mr.  Pketzie.  I  am  trying  to  refresh  m^^  recollection  now  as  I  am 
speaking.  In  many  instances  they  ha\e  api)roache(l  membei-s  of  the 
judiciary  committee  because  it  was  quite  apparent  for  the  time  that 
there  was  a  possibility  we  would  be  able  to  get  these  bills  out  of  the 
judiciary  committee.  One  member  of  that  committee  who  is  now 
dead,  who  was  formerly  chairman  of  the  committee— and  there  is 
another  member  of  that  committee  who  was  the  dean  of  the  law 
school  here— told  me  that  they  know  of  members  of  the  committee 
who  were  actually  threatened  right  in  the  judiciary  committee  by 
these  fellows, 

I  have  gotten  from  other  sources  that  I  can't  identify  that  they 
had  made  oifers  of  money,  and  in  cases— I  know  of  one  instance  where 
a  threat  was  made,  although  this  man  was  not  a  member  of  the  judi- 
ciary committee  but  was  a  member  of  the  house.  He  had  already 
committed  himself  to  support  the  crime  commission  bills,  and  when 
he  refused  to  yield— and  I  witnesses  this  myself  in  the  lobby  of  the 
hotel  there.  First  they  were  in  the  cocktail  lounge.  The  chairs  were 
pushed  back  and  they  almost  came  to  blows.  I  was  sitting  at  an- 
other place  in  there  M'ith  some  men.  The  words  were  loud  and  harsh 
and  the  first  thing  I  knew  one  of  these  men  chased  Adduci  out  in  the 
corridor  and  wanted  to  battle  with  him.  The  reason  for  that,  I 
learned  from  talking  to  this  member  of  the  legislature,  was  that  they 
threatened  not  only  violence  but  that  if  he  wouldn't  change  his  mind 
and  vote  against  the  crime  commission  bills,  they  were  going  to 
defeat  him  up  in  his  district ;  if  necessary  they  were  going  to  spend 
$25,000,  and  they  did.  He  was  candidate  for  reelection  luid  when 
It  came  time  for  filing  this  last  primary,  petitions  had  to  be  filed  with 
the  secretary  of  state,  members  of  this  bloc— I  think  Adduci  was  one 
and  there  was  a  man  who  was  spokesman  for  this  grou]),  Joe  Porcaro 
who  IS  a  powerful  west  side  politician.  Republican  incidentally,  went 
to  the  secretary  of  state's  office  and  tried  to  get  first  billing"  for  an 
op]3onent  of  this  man.  Fortunately  he  was  there  and  he  had  a  friend 
111  the  secretary's  office  and  he  got  his  rightful  position  on  the  ballot, 
which  was  position  No.  1. 

There  are  other  things  which  occurred  in  that  particular  district 
which  confirmed  what  this  member  had  told  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  Perhaps  we  can  helj)  clarify  the  reasons  by  takino- 
oiie  vote  that  apparently  occurred  in  the  committee.  You  liad  eio-lS 
Democrats  and  seven  Republicans  voting  in  Avhat  you  characterize 
as  an  attemjit  to  kill  one  of  the  bills.  You  say  two  were  Cook  Gountv 
Democrats,  Euzzino  and  Cronin. 
Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Why  would  Cronin  vote  wirh  Euzzino? 
Mr.  Pretzie.  Cronin  felt  in  that  case,  with  due  res])ect  to  Mr. 
Cronin,  who  afterward  changed  his  vote — I  am  not  sayino-  this  be- 
cause he  did— he  felt  at  first  that  there  was  probably  no^need  for 
Cronin  had  been  assocnited  here— incidentally  he  is"  a  member  of 
the  license  liquor  appeal  connnission.  -He  has  been  associated  here 
with  a  law  firm,  not  recently  but  in  years  past  and  iDracticed  almost 
exclusively  m  the  criminal  courts,  both  State  and  Federal,  and  some 
member  of  that  firm  had  represpnted  the  Ca])onos  iu  some  nf  tlipir 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  201 

conflicts  with  the  law.  He  probably  felt  conscientiously — I  am  giv- 
ing him  the  benefit  of  the  doubt — but  there  was  no  need  for  extension 
of  the  grand  jur3^ 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  yon  have  six  down-State  Democrats:  Taylor 
Boseman,  Jeti'erson,  Carver,  and  Shapiro.  What  would  induce  those 
people  to  vote  against  the  bills  the  Democrats  introduced  there  ^ 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Shapiro  afterwards  changed  and  supported  the  bill. 
Carver  didn't.  Taylor  didn't.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  could  never 
understand  Taylor.  He  was  cosponsor  on  two  of  the  bills.  He  didn't 
happen  to  be  of  this  particular  bill. 

Mr.  Halj^ey.  This  is  the  grand  jury  bill ;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right.  Taylor  is  well  reputed  down  in  the 
southern  part  of  the  State.     He  is  an  able  lawyer.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  all  fairness  could  it  be  that  perhaps  a  substantial 
number  of  the  people  voting  against  the  bills  did  it  either  quite  sin- 
cerely or  for  reasons  that  you  just  know  nothing  about  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  True.     I  would  say  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  your  point,  then,  that  the  balance  of  power  lay 
in  their  bloc  from  the  river  wards  and  the  people  they  were  able  to 
nuike  deals  -with  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  wouldn't  be  jour  point  that  they  corrupted  the  en- 
tire legislature? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Oh,  none  whatsoever.  Xo;  I  wouldn't  make  that 
statement. 

Mr.  Halley.  Are  there  any  other  general  conclusions  you  would 
like  to  state  for  the  record  in  addition  to  what  is  in  your  report,  bear- 
ing in  mind  that  the  report  will  be  made  a  part  of  the  committee's 
record  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Xo ;  I  think  not,  unless  you  want  to  go  into  the  rea- 
sons as  to  why  the  Italian  bloc — I  mean  if  you  want  me  to  chart  their 
early  careers  and  associations  with  these  men.  On  some  of  those 
bills  there  possibly  could  have  been  some  logical  objections,  but  on 
the  two  bills,  with  all  the  support  that  we  received  from  the  Governor, 
the  mayor,  and  the  press  and  everything  else,  I  can't  conceive  how 
there  could  possibly  be  any  logical  argument  or  objection  to  those  two 
bills. 

Mr.  Halley.  Despite  the  lateness  of  the  hour  I  personally  would 
like  to  hear  about  the  Italian  bloc. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  may  be  in  some  of  the  records. 

Mr.  Halley.  Go  right  ahead. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  In  the  Senate  many  of  these  men  I  have  known  for 
many  3'cars 

]N[r.  Halley.  Would  you  name  them  first,  the  men  you  are  referring 
to? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Senator  Roland  Libonate.  who  is  a  Democrat  elected 
from  the  seventeenth  senatorial  district  which  embraces  the  first  ward. 
He  is  a  protege  of  Pete  Fosco's.  Roland  Libonate  in  the  last  session 
of  the  legislature  was  considered  the  Democratic  whip.  He  spear- 
headed the  opposition  to  the  crime  commission  bills.  Three  of  these 
bills  passed  the  senate.  Roland  Libonate  as  you  know — maybe  you 
don't  know,  and  I  had  better  tell  you — formerly  was  elected  as  the 
repi'esentative  from  that  same  district  and  was  a  member  of  one  of 

68958 — 51 --pt.  5 14 


202  ,  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

tlie  most  notorious  ward  oi-oanizations,  tlien  the  twentieth  ward,  in 
which  JNIaury  Eller  was  the  committeeman. 

Mr.  KoKiNSON.  What  is  that  ward  called? 

Mr.  Pketzie.  It  was  called  the  "Bloody  Twentieth.''  Some  years 
prior  to  that  time — it  has  been  redistricted  over  the  years — it  was 
known  as  the  "Bloody  Twentieth."  That  ward  gave  us  most  of  these 
men  that  you  referred  to  as  members  of  the  mob,  except  those  who  came 
on  here  from  the  East  and  other  points.  That  ward  gave  us  men  like 
Antliony  Volj)e,  Mops  Volpe,  gave  you  Tony  Accardo,  gave  you  Jack 
McGurn.  It  gives  you  this  fellow  Mooney  Giancana.  I  would  say 
he  is  the  j^oungest  member  of  the  mob.  On  the  question  propounded 
to  Otto  Kerner,  I  was  inclined  to  agree  with  him,  but  Mooney  Gian- 
cana is  coming  up  and  he  is  probably  the  youngest  member  of  that 
mob.  He  is  the  chauffeur  and  body  guard  for  Tony  Accardo.  Frank 
Rio,  the  late  Frank  Rio — he,  incidentally,  died  a  natural  death — was 
(me  of  the  principal  body  guards  of  Al  Capone  at  the  time,  with  his 
cousin  Charlie  Fichetti,  Tony  Accardo  and  some  of  these  other  fel- 
lows who  are  now  prominent,  who  are  the  big  shots  now  in  the  mob 
or  syndicate.  Some  other  notorious  characters,  such  as  Druggari  and 
Lake  who  are  no  longer  active  in  mob  circles,  came  out  of  that  district. 
I  don't  have  all  the  names  before  me,  I  can  probably  identify  some 
others. 

Libonate  was  a  pretty  close  pal  and  associate  of  Al  Capone.  It  is 
a  matter  of  public  record  that  he  fraternized  with  him  and  they  were 
seen  together  in  public  places.  Libonate,  I  think,  has  never  denied 
the  fact  that  he  and  Capone  were  bosom  pals. 

You  had  the  spectacle  of  Jimmie  Adduci,  who  before  he  was  elected 
to  the  legislature,  coming  from  that  same  area  just  a  short  distance 
away  on  the  West  Side,  was  an  associate  of  Willie  BiotT,  Dago  Law- 
]'ence  Mangano,  who  didn't  meet  a  natural  death  but  was  machine- 
gunned  together  with  his  bodyguard  not  too  many  years  ago.  Dago 
Lawrence  Mangano  was  considered  the  man  in  charge  of  vice  for  the 
mob.  In  more  recent  years  he  went  into  the  gambling  business  and  had 
a  big  gambling  establishment  up  on  the  near  North  Side,  around  the 
Bistro  side,  near  Rush  Street  and  Chicago  Avenue. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  he  operating  today? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  No;  he  is  dead  and  I  don't  think  that  spot  is  operat- 
ing any  more.  But  his  activities  are  being  carried  on  by  members  of 
the  mob.  This  man  Mops  Volpe,  who  doesn't  figure  so  prominently 
in  the  picture  today,  was  one  of  the  mob's  principal  lieutenants.  He 
was  the  overseer  of  the  Cicero  gambling  operations  not  too  many  years 
back  and  also  the  principal  lieutenant  in  the  conduct  of  dog  tracks 
when  they  had  control  of  the  Hawthorne  Kennel  Club  and  also  the 
Laramie  Kennel  Club. 

I  didn't  come  prepared  for  this.  This  is  what  occurs  to  me  now. 
I  haven't  given  it  too  much  thought. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  all  right.  You  go  ahead.  You  can  supple- 
ment it  and  we  hope  you  will. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  You  asked  the  question  of  Mr.  Kerner,  and  you  are 
right,  you  have  seen  evidence  down  in  Florida.  The  thing  I  can't 
miderstand  is  why  so  many  men  in  high  places  in  public  life  refuse  to 
recognize  that  there  is  such  a  thing  as  a  syndicate  and  a  mob,  that  it 
lives  and  that  it  breathes,  and  that  it  is  here  and  is  doing  business  here. 


ORGAmZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  203 

Unfortunately,  the  only  time  tliese  men  have  been  brought  to  justice 
and  paid  the  penalty  is  because  Uncle  Sam,  through  the  medium  ot  the 
income-tax  law,  was  able  to  punish  them  where  our  local  authorities 
had  always  been  ineffectiye.  -n  j; 

It  seems  to  me  that  over  the  years  with  the  proper  surveillance  ot 
any  law-enforcement  agency,  with  men  of  intelligence  anc  probably 
not  too  much  intelligence,  they  certainly  could  have  established  or 
developed  enough  evidence  to  have  made  a  case  to  bring  these  men  to 
the  bar  of  justice  in  our  State  courts  or  in  our  criminal  courts. 

We  as  the  crime  commission,  not  too  long  ago  when  the  county  was 
wide  open,  were  able  to  find  luxurious  gambling  emporiums  of  the  type 
they  have  down  in  Florida  and  the  type  that  they  operate  in  Las  Vegas. 
There  were  large  gaming  rooms  with  seven  or  eight  roulette  wheels, 
half  a  dozen  crap  tables.  ^     ,        c 

^Ir.  PIalley.   Up  to  how  long  ago  and  where  i  ^^     ^       ^ 

Mr  Pretzie    Of  course,  we  were  responsible  because  we  put  the  local 
authorities  on  the  spot.     They  couldn't  help  themselves.     This  one 
address  that  Uv.  Kerner  referred  to  down  there  at  Cicero  and  Austin 
Avenue  was  Willie  Heeney's  and  Corngold's.     That  was  591-i  West 
Cermak  Road.     1  shouldn't  be  surprised  but  that  they  are  still  oper- 
ating^     I  haven't  been  up  there.     I  haven't  done  anything  on  gambling 
in  recent  years.     Mr.  Devereux  has  handled  all  that.     They  operated 
a  bio-  spot  and  another  place  at  5937  Roosevelt  Road,  which  was  also 
in  dcero,  that  we  know  Corngold  operated.     We  had  those  two  places 
after  the  local  authorities  either  were  unable  or  unwilling  to  take  any 
effective  action.    We  had  arranged  to  give  the  sheriff— it  isn  t  this 
present  sheriff— an  opportunity  after  apprising  him  ot  the  fact  that 
these  places  were  in  operation  and  going  wide  open  with  no  pretense 
of  secrecy.     The  sheriff's  lieutenant  visited  these  two  places  and  came 
back  with  the  report  that  they  found  a  couple  of  scratch  sheets  and 
made  a  vaid  and  booked  a  couple  of  men,  the  keepers  of  the  handbook. 
\s  a  matter  of  fact,  it  was  a  false  and  fraudulent  report.     We  then 
proceeded  to  enlist  the  aid  of  the  State's  attorney's  police  through  the 
State's  attorney,  who  was  then  Courtney ;  it  wasn't  Mr.  Boyle.     I  was 
on  one  raid  and  I  directed  the  other  raid,  too.     We  knocked  over  both 
of  these  places  and  confiscated  considerable  equipment,  which  ran  into 
roulette  wheels  which  were  then  valued  at  about  $1,200,  and  several 
roulette  wheels  in  both  places  and  other  gambling  paraphernalia^ 

Shortly  after  that  there  was  a  place  that  we  know  that  Rocco 
Fischetti  managed,  whom  we  had  identified  through  credible  evi- 
dence, witnesses,  Rocco  Fischetti  was  identified  as  the  manager  of  The 
Dome,  which  was  out  here  on  West  Irving  Park  Road.  We  got  the 
same  report  from  the  sheriff  in  connection  with  that  place,  and  we 
went  out  there,  and  there  must  have  been  350  people  m  the  place, 
elaborately  furnished.  We  took  seven  or  eight  roulette  wheels  and 
another  batch  of  gambling  paraphernalia  out  of  there. 
Mr.  Halley.  How  recent  was  all  of  this? 

Mr  Prftzie.  This  was  1943  and  19-14.  What  I  am  leading  up  to  is 
this  •  It  i«  a  result  of  that  activity,  to  their  amazement  they  couldn  t 
understand  it.  They  felt  secure  in  their  belief.  They  had  been  going 
along  unmolested.  "The  men  that  we  had  stationed  m  the  places  at 
the  t'lme  the  raids  were  made  had  gotten  comments  from  the  various 
l)atrons  who  said  "This  looks  like  the  real  McCoy.  This  has  never 
happened.    There  is  something  haywire  here.'' 


204  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Because  in  times  prior  to  that  they  were  tipped  off,  the  sheriff's 
police  are  coming  out  or  the  State's  attorney's  police  are  coming  out. 
Give  us  two  guys  to  make  a  pinch.  Excuse  the  jargon.  Maybe  I 
am  getting  a  little  off. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  are  a  little  off  track.  We  were  talking  about  the 
river  ward  bloc.  You  covered  Libonate.  You  were  going  to  tell  us 
who  the  rest  of  them  were  and  their  background. 

Mr.  Pretzit:.  I  think  I  gave  you  enough  to  show  the  connections  of 
Libonate. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  think  so. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  think  I  gave  you  enough  as  far  as  Adducci  was 
concerned  to  show  you  the  connections  there.  Incidentally,  Libonate's 
practice  is  practically  all  criminal. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  he  a  lawyer? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes,  he  is  a  lawyer. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  he  have  a  record,  criminal  record? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  No,  he  doesn't  have  any  criminal  record.  I  think 
he  was  arrested,  as  I  recall,  on  the  eve  of  election  some  25  years  ago 
over  on  Halstead  Street.  I  don't  know  whether  the  police  booked  him. 
I  doubt  whether  they  booked  him  or  not,  but  at  that  time  there  were 
several  characters  who  were  members  of  the  same  organization. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  Adducci 's  politics? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  He  is  a  Republican. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  ward  is  he  from? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  He  is  from  the  twenty-seventh  ward.  He  actually 
runs  that  ward.  While  he  is  not  the  committeeman,  he  is  the  power- 
house there.     • 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  is  the  committeeman  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  am  not  too  sure.  I  think  it  is  a  fellow  by  the 
name  of  Snyder.    I  can  get  it  for  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  are  some  of  the  others  in  this  river  ward  bloc? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Granata.  Incidentally,  Granata  has  a  brother  who 
is  an  accountant.  I  can't  recall  his  first  name  now.  I  think  he  has 
done  some  work  for  some  of  these  fellows. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  are  Granata's  politics  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  He  is  a  Republican. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  ward  is  he  from  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  He  is  from  what  would  now  be  the  first  ward.  It 
was  formerly  the  twentieth  ward. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  any  of  the  others  in  mind  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes.     Euzzino  is  a  Democrat  from  the  first  ward. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Porcaro? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Porcaro  is  committeeman  from  the  twenty-sixth  or 
the  twenty-eighth  ward,  I  think  possibly  the  twenty-sixth  ward. 
Porcaro  is  not  a  member  of  the  legislature,  but  he  was  considered 
the  spokesman  for  this  group.  While  he  had  no  right  to  be  upon 
the  floor,  which  will  be  reflected  in  the  report,  he  was  very  active  in 
the  sessions,  while  the  house  was  in  session,  collaring  the  members. 
As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  Daily  News  exposed  his  activities  and  he 
was  then  holding  a  position  in  the  county  treasurer's  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  are  the  other  members  of  this  river  ward  bloc  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  James  Rinella.  He  represents  the  first  district.  He 
would  also,  since  the  redistricting,  I  think  be  part  of  the  first  ward 
now. 


O'RGAJSTIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  205 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Did  you  cover  Petrone? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  No,  I  didivt.    - 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  Rinella's  politics  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  think  he  is  a  Republican.  I  can  give  it  to  you.  I 
think  he  is  a  Republican,  but  I  can  check  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let's  take  Rinella,  for  instance.  What  are  his  con- 
nections with  the  syndicate?  Why  did  you  consider  that  he  votes 
in  a  bloc  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  will  say  because  of  his  friendship.  I  don't  say 
that  Pete  Granata  is  definitely  tied  in  with  it.  I  know  of  no  in- 
stances where  he  was  associated  or  fraternized  personally  with  these 
fellows,  but  because  of  the  general  atmosphere  and  the  conditions 
that  prevailed  over  in  that  area  for  many,  many  years,  he  was  re- 
puted, and  we  have  never  been  able  to  establish  this,  he  was  reputed 
to  be  interested  in  the  handbook  not  too  many  years  ago  over  there, 
but  we  weren't  able  to  establish  it. 

Mr,  Halley.  This  is  Granata  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  G-r-a-n-a-t-a. 

Mr.  Halley.  A^Hiat  about  Rinella  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Rinella,  so  far  as  we  know,  has  no  criminal  record. 

Mr.  Halley.  Does  he  associate  with  mobsters  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes,  they  are  always  associated  together. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  does  he  associate  with,  what  individuals,  do  you 
remember  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  am  speaking  of  his  association — you  mean  the  mem- 
bers of  the  bloc,  not  the  mob  now. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  do  you  tie  this  bloc  in  with  the  mob?  That  is 
what  I  don't  understand.  I  thought  that  is  what  we  were  talking 
about. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  have  given  you  enough  instances  here  already. 

Mr.  Halley.  We  know  how  they  vote,  but  what  do  you  know  about 
their  associates?  Do  they  visit  at  Fischetti's  house?  Do  they  eat 
dinner  with  Accardo  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  don't  know  that  of  my  own  knowledge ;  no. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  any  information  about  any  of  these  so- 
called  river-ward  blocs  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  No;  I  can't  honestly  say  that  I  do.  In  recent  years; 
no,  I  can't. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  do  we  tie  them  in?  You  say  that  historically 
they  have  always  voted  in  a  way  that  resulted  in  a  criminaPs  benefiting ; 
is  that  right  ? 

]Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes ;  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  Aside  from  that  which  of  them  can  we  say  fraternized 
and  associated  with  known  hoodlums  ( 

Mr.  Pretzie.  If  you  ask  me  today  I  can  only  judge  by  this  past 
record.     I  can't  say  of  my  own  knowledge  toda3^ 

Mr.  Halley.  Which  of  them  did  in  the  past  associate?  How  did 
they  come  up  in  the  world  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Adducci,  there  isn't  any  secret  about  that.  Adduce! 
definitely  was  tied  in  with  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  was  he  tied  in. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Well,  he  was  arresteU  with  some  of  these  characters  in 
a  gambling  house,  and  he  was  arrested  in  connection  with  a  vice  in- 
vestigation and  if  you  check  his  arrest  record,  you  will  find  that  his 


206  ORGANIZED    CRIME'    IN    IN'TERSTATE    COMMERCE 

association  goes  back  with  these  men  over  a  period  of  years,  maybe  20> 
yeai'S. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  Adducci  you  can  definitely  say  whether  or  not  he 
was  convicted. 

Mr,  Pretzie.  I  don't  think  yon  will  find  any  conviction  on  him 
either. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  at  least  he  was  found  associating  with  the  mobsters 
in  places  that  operated  illegally  'i 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Hali^y.  Can  you  say  that  about  an}^  of  the  others  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Libonate  was  seen  with  Al  Capone. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  it  true  that  Libonate  has  had  his  picture  taken 
with  Al  Capone  ? 

JNIr.  Pretzie.  He  has  had  his  picture  taken.  It  is  a  matter  of 
public  record.  That  is  right.  It  is  a  matter  of  public  record,  too, 
that  Libonate  was  in  the  headquarters  of  this  place  on  election  night 
wdien  several  of  the  members  of  the  mob  were  there.  I  don't  recall 
their  names  now.  I  can  refresh  my  recollection.  But  they  were  im- 
portant. They  were  not  too  important.  I  think  Murray  Humphreys 
may  have  been  one  of  them  in  that  particular  raid.  There  were  sev- 
eral members  of  the  mob.  In  connection  with  Petrone,  that  I  spoke 
of  who  was  part  of  this  Italian  bloc,  interceded  for  these  men  and 
tried  to  get  them  released  from  the  custody  of  the  police. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  Libonate  have  a  brother? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes;  he  has  a  brother,  Eleodore,  who  is  very  active 
in  veterans'  affairs.  They  are  two  different  types  of  individuals  en- 
tirely. One  fellow  has  never  had  any  association  or  affiliation  or  any 
business  dealings  or  represented  any  of  these  fellows.  Of  course, 
Libonate  has  represented  a  lot  of  them. 

Mr.  Halley,  Would  you  say  about  Euzzino  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Euzznino  in  connection  with  Tony  Accardo's  draft 
status,  I  guess  he  was  questioned,  I  don't  know.  Mr.  Kerner  m^iy  have 
overlooked  that.  He  was  questioned  with  reference  to  an  affidavit 
he  acknowledged  for  Tony  Accardo  having  to  do  with  his  draft 
deferment, 

Mr,  Robinson.  You  say  Libonate's  brother  has  no  connection. 
There  is  no  connection  between  the  brothers  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  No;  except  that  they  are  brothers;  They  are  not 
engaged  in  the  law  business  together.  They  never  did  practice  to- 
gether. They  travel  in  different  circles,  and  they  don't  represent 
the  same  type  of  clients. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  does  the  brother  do? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  He  is  a  lawyer,  Eleodore, 

Mr,  Robinson.  Is  the  brother  employed  in  Washington? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  You  mean  Libonate?  I  think  there  may  be  another 
brother,  but  Eleodore  is  considered  a  pretty  high-grade  decent  fellow. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  could  you  say  about  Porcaro  ? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Porcaro  always  has  been  tied  in.  He  has  been  a  fixer 
and  front  man  for  the  hoodlum  element.  He  has  been  tied  in  politics. 
He  got  canned  out  of  the  State's  attorney's  office.  I  don't  know  how 
he  got  in  there  at  the  time.  I  think  Swanson  was  the  State's  at- 
torney. I  think  he  was  responsible  for  those  records.  Our  files, 
I  think,  will  show  some  other  situations  that  don't  speak  very  well  of 
Mr,  Porcaro, 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  207 

Mr.  Hallet.  Are  there  other  members  of  this  river  ward  bloc  that 

you  haven't  mentioned  ^  .  t  ^.i  •   i 

Mr  Pketzie.  This  man  D'Arco  is  out  of  the  picture  now.  I  think 
we  have  established  that  at  one  time  he  was  charged  with  robbery,  al- 
though he  was  acquitted. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  anything  else? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  If  I  could  refresh  my  recollection  on  some  of  these 
thino^.  I  can  go  back.  My  assignment  in  recent  years  has  been  a  little 
different,  but  1  could  probably  search  my  memory  independent  of  any 
records  and  maybe  come  up  with  something. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  this  your  own  personal  record  ^ 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  duplicate  of  it  ?  ... 

Mr.  Pretzie.  This  is  my  personal  record.  There  is  an  original  of 
that  in  the  file.     You  are  welcome  to  have  that. 

Mr.  Caiin.  I  have  a  few  brief  questions.  I  will  keep  you  just  a 
moment  longer,  if  I  may,  Mr.  Pretzie.  I  know  you  gentlemen  have 
been  working  hard  and 'long  into  the  night  and  have  a  full  schedule 
ahead,  as  I  am  sure  you  do. 

For  the  sake  of  the  record,  Mr.  Pretzie,  since  reference  has  been 
made  to  an  "Italian  bloc,"  I  am  sure  you  would  agree,  as  I  am  sure 
the  committee  would,  that  these  particular  gentlemen,  at  least  insofar 
as  their  stand  on  these  bills  recommended  by  the  crime  commission  and 
by  the  bar  association  and  so  on,  do  not  represent  undoubtedly  the  posi- 
tion of  the  Italian-American  community  of  Chicago. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Not  at  all.  I  am  Italian,  incidentally.  I  may  not 
look  it,  out  I  am  of  Italian  descent  myself. 

Mr.  Caiin.  I  think  that  might  be  mentioned  for  the  record  m  all 
fairness  to  the  patriotic  Americans  of  Italian  descent. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Cahn.  In  the  same  way  that  we  would  do  similarly  for  any 
other  group  of  whose  members  might  inadvertently  tarnish  the  name 
of  the  over-all  group. 

I^Ir.  Pretzie.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  think  these  men  are  probably 
a  disgrace  and  maybe  they  would  be  disowned  by  the  decent  Italian- 
Americans.  Unfortunately  they  come  from  the  type  of  wards  where 
you  have  a  constituency  that  can*t  be  too  independent  and  don't  exer- 
cise their  franchise  as  freely  as  they  do  in  other  wards.  In  other 
words,  despite  what  newspapers  and  despite  all  propaganda,  you  can  t 
beat  those  fellows  over  in  those  wards.  ,       ,    ■  j- 

Mr.  Cahn.  I  just  wanted  to  bring  that  out  because  the  chairman  of 
the  committee  aiid  the  chief  counsel  have  been  very,  very  fair  m  their 

questioning.  n  ^i       i 

Mi:  Pretzie.  Some  newspaper  has  used  that  phrase  and  they  Have 
carried  it  through,  the  "river  blcc."  It  is  referred  to  as  the  West  Side 
Italian  bloc.    It  has  stayed  with  them  ever  since. 

Mr.  Caiin.  Of  course  you  implied,  as  the  committee  implies,  no  in- 
dication as  to  the  patriotic  and  honest  quality  of  the  Italian-American 
community  of  this  area. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Caiin.  Just  one  other  question  then.  Can  you  predict  successor 
for  these  more  limited  suggestions  that  the  crime  commission  is  going 
to  send  up  ?     I  think  you  said  there  are  going  to  be  two  or  three  bills. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Two. 


208  ORGANIZED    CRIMEl   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Caiin".  Have  any  conditions  changed  wliereby  you  would  think 
you  might  have  improved  chances  in  the  forthcoming  legislature  as 
against  your  previous  results? 

Mr.  Pretzie.  Yes.  I  feel  that  there  is  a  better  chance  of  passing 
these  two  bills.  We  have  introduced  two  instead  of  five,  the  two  that 
we  think  are  of  primary  importance:  the  grand  jury  and  innnunity 
bills.  I  think  it  has  been  demonstrated  by  the  vote  of  the  electorate 
in  certain  legislative  districts.  In  other  words,  one  member  of  the 
house  who  undoubtedly  was  subjected  and  I  am  sure  was  subjected 
to  a  lot  of  pressure  on  the  part  of  the  Italian  bloc  and  voted  with 
them  contrary  to — incidentally  this  man  that  I  had  reference  to 
was  a  member  of  the  house.  He  was  mayor  of  Forest  Park,  a  com- 
munity in  which  there  was  considerable  gambling,  and  in  which  there 
were  bad  situations.  It  came  to  me,  but  I  can't  prove  it.  He  was 
just  coerced.  He  got  the  support  of  this  group  in  his  reelection,  and 
the  people  in  that  particular  area,  it  is  not  in  the  west  side  area,  but 
it  takes  in  the  entire  county  in  which  we  have  some  very  fine  suburbs, 
including  bad  towns  like  Cicero  and  Melrose  Park,  in  which  some  of 
these  members  of  the  mob  live.  He  was  opposed  by  a  man  who  for- 
merly sat  in  the  legislature  and  made  a  good  record,  and  he  was 
beaten  solely,  as  we  are  able  to  determine,  because  of  his  alliance  with 
these  men  and  his  vote  against  the  crime-commission  bills.  In  certain 
areas  it  has  been  reflected.  We  know  that  other  members  of  the  leg- 
islature who  voted  for  the  crime-commission  bills,  there  was  a  con- 
certed attempt  made  to  defeat  them.  There  was  some  trading  and 
money,  and  gambling  interests  in  certain  areas  have  attempted  to 
defeat  these  men.  That  situation  is  true  in,  I  would  say,  several 
■districts. 

Mr.  Cahn.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Pretzie,  for  this  very 
valuable  background  information. 

Mr.  Pretzie.  I  will  be  glad  to  come  back  any  time. 

(Whereupon,  at  8  p.  m.,  the  committee  recessed  until  9  a,  m.  the 
iollowing  day.) 


INYESTIGATION  OF  ORGANIZED  CEIME  IN  INTEESTATE 

COMMEECE 


FRIDAY,   OCTOBER  6,    1950 

United  States  Senate, 
Special  Committee  To  Investigate 
Organized  Crime  in  Interstate  Commerce, 

Chicago^  III. 

EXECUTIVE     session 

The  committee  met,  pursuant  to  recess,  at  9  a.  m.,  in  room  267,  United 
States  courthouse  (Old  Post  Office  Building),  Chicago,  111.,  Senator 
Estes  Kefauver  (chairman)  presiding. 

Present :  Senator  Kefauver. 

Also  present :  Eudolph  Halley,  chief  counsel ;  George  S.  Kobinson^ 
associate  counsel;  George  H.  Wliite,  Patrick  M.  Kiley,  William  C. 
Garrett,  and  W.  D.  Amis,  investigators ;  and  Julius  Cahn,  administra- 
tive assistant  to  Senator  Wiley.  Otto  Kerner,  Jr.,  United  States  at- 
torney. Northern  District  of  Illinois ;  Elmer  Oltman,  Intelligence  Unit, 
Bureau  of  Internal  Revenue,  Kansas  City  Division;  and  N.  F.  Oi*t- 
werth,  Internal  Revenue  agent,  St.  Louis  Division.  August  S.  Brown, 
special  agent.  Treasury  intelligence,  Chicago,  111.  Daniel  P.  Sullivan, 
operating  director,  Crime  Commission  of  Greater  Miami ;  and  Walter 
J.  Devereux,  chief  investigator,  Chicago  Crime  Commission,  and  con- 
sultant to  the  committee. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  come  to  order. 

Governor  Stevenson,  will  you  hold  up  your  hand.  Do  you  solemnly 
swear  the  testimony  you  will  give  this  committee  will  be  the  whole 
truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  HON.  ADLAI  E.  STEVENSON,  GOVERNOE,  STATE  OF 
ILLINOIS;  ACCOMPANIED  BY  WILLIAM  M.  BLAIR,  JR.,  ADMIN- 
ISTRATIVE ASSISTANT,  AND  WILLIAM  FLANAGAN,  HEAD,  DIVI- 
SION OF  REPORTS 

The  Chairman.  I  want  the  record  to  show  that  the  committee  is 
delighted  and  honored  to  have  with  us  the  distinguished  Governor  of 
the  State  of  Illinois,  Gov.  Adlai  E.  Stevenson,  who  has  shown  great 
energy  and  foresight  in  trying  to  get  at  and  handle  the  problems  of 
crime,  organized,  and  otherwise,  in  the  State  of  Illinois.  The  com- 
mittee has  had  an  opportunity  of  examining  and  keeping  in  touch 
with  Governor  Stevenson's  work,  and  I  can  say  without  any  equivo- 
cation that  he  has  shown  the  type  of  attitude  and  action  toward  getting. 

209 


210  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

at  unlawful  activities  in  the  State  of  Illinois  that  should  be  very,  very 
encouraging  to  tlie  good  citizens  of  this  State.  In  addition,  the  chair- 
man had  the  opportunity  of  being  with  Governor  Stevenson  at  the 
criminal  division  of  the  American'Bar  Association,  where  the  Gover- 
nor made  an  excellent  speech  which  appeared  in  the  Congressional 
Record,  which  adds  much  dignity  to  your  remarks.  Governor. 

We  took  the  Governor  somewhat  by  surprise.  We  invited  the  mayor 
of  Chicago  and  others  to  appear,  and  w^e  were  asked  if  we  were  going 
to  invite  the  Governor,  and  we  said  we  would  be  delighted  to  have  the 
Governor  come,  and  did  invite  him. 

Governor  Stevenson,  would  you  tell  us  anything  you  think  will 
help  the  committee,  both  as  to  legislative  masters  and  information 
that  you  may  have  ? 

Governor  Stevenson.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  appreciate  your  kind  I'e- 
marks  about  what  we  have  been  doing  in  Illinois.  I  can  briefly  sum- 
marize my  experience  with  commercialized  gambling,  which  is  the 
only  direct  experience  I  have  had  with  organized  crime  in  Illinois 
since  I  have  been  Governor,  somewhat  as  follows : 

I  took  office  in  Januaiy  1949.  At  that  time  it  was  apparent  from 
general  public  information  tliat  the  use  of  gambling  devices  such  as 
slot  machines,  roulette,  craps,  and  things  of  that  kind  were  com- 
monplace in  Illinois.  There  were  also  some  large  and  notorious 
handbooks  operating.  The  distribution  of  the  slot  machine  was  very 
extensive.  By  that,  I  don't  mean  to  say  that  they  operated  only  in 
all  of  the  counties,  but  in  a  good  many. 

Early  in  1949  the  situation  in  certain  counties  came  forcibly  to 
our  attention  in  Springfield  due  to  delegations,  usually  from  min- 
isterial associations,  who  waited  upon  us  or  from  com]>laints  received 
through  the  mails.  After  prolonged  discussion  of  this  matter  and 
what  to  do  about  it,  we  concluded — that  is,  the  attorney  general  and  I 
concluded— that  we  should  institute  a  rather  consecutive  and  con- 
tinuous series  of  interviews  with  local  law^-enforcement  officials — 
I  mean  State's  attorneys,  sheriffs,  and  mayors — in  communities  where 
gambling  existed. 

That  process  went  on  for  quite  some  time.  It  still  goes  on.  We 
found  it  yielded  some  results,  that  in  a  good  many  counties,  I  would 
say  that  demonstrably  in  8  or  10,  gambling  which  theretofore  had 
been  prevalent  was  discontinued  by  local  action  following  one  or  more 
conferences  in  Springfield  with  local  law-enforcement  officials.  We 
were  at  great  pains  to  make  these  conferences  highly  confidential  so 
that  the  local  law-enforcement  official  would  get  the  credit  for  having 
discontinued  gambling  in  his  locality,  which  of  course  was  the  major 
inducement  for  him  to  cooperate. 

In  many  other  counties,  however,  we  found  that  gambling  either 
stopped  temporarily  and  then  was  resumed  after  vaiying  intervals 
of  anyw4iere  fi*om  2  weeks  to  2  months,  or  that  in  some  places  it  never 
stopped  at  all  and  that  our  importunities  were  unavailing. 

During  this  interval  I  was  in  the  process  of  reorganizing  the  Illinois 
State  police,  which  had  theretofore  been  sponsored  wholly  politically, 
and  with  thanks  to  the  cooperation  of  the  Illinois  General  Assembly 
we  got  a  bill  enacted  in  June  of  1949  that  enabled  us  to  put  the  Illinois 
State  police  on  a  strictly  merit  basis.  During  the  period  of  transition 
from  a  political  police  force  to  a  strictly  professional  police  force 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  211 

there  were  a  great  many  discharges  and  replacements.  The  result  is 
that  our  police  force  was  somewhat  demoralized  and  was  also  very 
undermanned.  I  didn't  feel  that  during  that  interval  it  would  be 
proper  or  even  wise  to  use  the  state  police  to  supplement  our  moral 
pressures  on  local  law-enforcement  officials  to  comply  with  the  law. 

However,  by  the  winter  of  1950  the  police  force  had  been  virtually 
reorganized,  the  work  had  been  substantially  completed,  replacements 
had  been  made.  We  recruited  new  men  and  had  an  opportunity  to 
give  them  6  weeks  of  professional  training  in'  our  police  schools,  and 
they  had  also  had  some  opportunity  to  serve  actually  on  the  roads  and 
in  the  districts  throughout  the  State. 

So  Ave  concluded  in  the  winter  of  this  year  that  we  were  now  m  a 
position  to  use  the  State  police  in  those  counties  where  the  resistance 
had  been  stubborn  and  where  there  had  been  no  cooperation,  where 
law  enforcement  had  broken  down,  if  you  please,  and  where  the  local 
officials  showed  no  disposition  to  do  their  duty.  That  we  commenced 
in  May  of  1950,  first  in  Madison  County  on  these  two  large  notorious 
handbooks,  the  Hyde  Park  and  the  200  Club.  Since  then  we  have 
been  raiding  continuously  on  the  basis  of  preliminary  investigations 
in  counties  to  determine  the  existence  and  the  whereabouts  of  gam- 
bling devices,  with  the  result  that  I  have  some  tabulations  here. 
Whether  they  are  of  any  interest  to  the  committee  or  not  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  We  would  like  very  much  to  have  them  made  a 
part  of  the  record,  Governor,  and  you  refer  to  any  parts  of  it  that  you 
wish. 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  will  present  this  for  the  record,  it  merely 
sets  forth  in  detail  what  we  have  done  through  the  use  of  the  police. 
This  does  not  reflect  what  has  been  done  in  the  way  of  direct  nego- 
tiation. .     . 

The  Chairman.  May  I  ask  if  it  is  a  confidential  matter  or  is  it 

public? 

Governor  STEVENSO^f.  We  will  make  it  public.  There  is  no  reason 
why  it  shouldn't  be.  It  shows  that  we  have  raided  73  towns,  308 
establishments,  that  we  have  seized  and  either  destroyed  or  there  are 
currently  pending  applications  for  orders  to  destroy  700  gambling 
devices,  and  84  miscellaneous  gambling  devices.  The  total  number 
of  police  involved  in  these  raids  is  510.  The  total  funds,  money  found 
in  them  or  seized  in  one  way  or  another  is  $73,000. 

(The  documents  referred  to  are  identified  as  exhibit  No.  26,  and  are 
on  file  with  the  committee.) 

Governor  Stevenson.  The  result  of  all  this,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  th'at 
we  think— I  use  the  word  "think"  advisedly  because  I  have  no  com- 
parative statistics— that  commercialized  gambling  in  Illinois  is  at  the 
lowest  ebb  in  many  years.  The  collector  of  internal  revenue  for  the 
southern  district  of  Illinois,  which  includes  73  counties,  reports  that 
applications  for  Federal  tax  stamps  for  gambling  devices  has  de- 
clined more  than  40  percent  in  1  year,  that  is,  August  1949  to  August 
1950.  These  machines,  however,  persist.  Although,  as  I  say,  they 
are  rapidly  disappearing  in  commercial  establishments,  they  still  per- 
sist in  clubs,  service  club  posts,  country  clubs,  private  establishments 
very  generally.  There  has  been  a  marked  decline  in  those,  but  by  no 
means  comparable  to  the  decline  in  commercial  establishments,  tav- 
erns, gambling  joints. 


212  ORGANIZED    CRIME'    IN  "INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

I  don't  have  at  hand  the  figures  witli  respect  to  applications  for 
Federal  tax  stamps  in  the  northern  collection  district  of  Illinois,  but 
there  I  think  the  percentage  is  that  the  decline  was  roughly  the  same, 
40  or  50  percent  less  in  1  year. 

We  think,  in  conclusion,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  these  conferences 
which  as  I  say  persist  to  this  day'  with  local  law-enforcement  officials, 
sometimes  proffering  them  the  assistance  of  local  investigators  to 
help  them  to  determine  facts  in  their  counties,  and  the  use  of  this 
instrumentality  of  the  'State  police,  has  been  exceedingly  effective, 
but  I  am  talking  wholly  about  commercialized  gambling,  no  other 
form  of  crime,  and  I  am  limiting  what  I  have  to  say  to  the  interval 
in  which  we  can  demonstrably  show  what  has  been  accomplished, 
commencing  in  May  1950.  As  I  say,  before  that  period  I  think  we 
knocked  out  8  or  10  counties  which  were  bad  ones,  largely  by  the  co- 
operation of  the  local  officials.  This  is  expensive.  It  diverts  a  great 
many  men  from  other  duties.  We  have  in  Illinois  a  State  police  au- 
thorized by  law  of  500  people  to  patrol  all  the  roads  of  the  State,  400 
miles  long,  from  Cairo  to  Wisconsin.  If  you  deduct  administrative 
personnel,  radio  operators,  and  so  on,  of  50,  that  gives  3^ou  450  men. 
On  an  8-hour-shift  basis,  that  means  that  you  haven't  more  than 
about  17  working  at  any  one  time  to  patrol  all  the  highways  of  the 
largest  primary  highw^ays  system  in  the  United  States,  or  12,000  miles. 
You  can  see  that  the  diversion  of  this  manpower  from  their  statutory 
duties  to  supplement  local  police  enforcement  is  at  the  expense  of  a 
proper  highway  patrol. 

If  I  may  say  one  more  word.  I  am  perfectly  frank  to  say,  as  I  have 
publicly  on  several  occasions,  I  don't  like  to  see  the  State  intervene  in 
matters  of  local  law  enforcement.  I  think  it  represents  a  breakdown, 
not  so  much  a  crackdown  as  a  breakdown  of  local  law  enforcement, 
that  it  is  wrong,  that  it  is  wrong  in  theory,  and  it  is  expensive  and 
inefficient  in  practice,  but  I  see  nothing  ^Ise  to  do  in  circumstances  such 
as  we  have  encountered,  wdiere  there  has  been  a, prolonged  breakdown 
of  local  law  enforcement.  In  that  case  I  think  people  will  dema,nd 
and  they  will  get  the  service  of  higher  levels  of  government. 

The  CiiAiRMAisr.  To  what  would  you  assign  the  reason  for  the  break- 
down of  local  law  enforcement  in  the  counties  or  communities  where 
you  found  that  to  exist  ? 

Governor  Stevenson.  One,  the  corruption  of  local  law  enforcement 
officials,  who  profit  from  protection.  Two,  campaign  contributions, 
which  is  another  form  of  corruption,  I  presume.  Three,  public  indif- 
ference, which  I  believe  speaks  for  itself,  the  fact  that  the  localities 
themselves  don't  insist  upon  adequate  performance  of  duty  by  local 
officials.  I  think  those  in  all  their  ramifications  probably  constitute 
the  principal  explanation  for  it. 

I  must  say  that  there  are  cases  where  local  law  enforcement  officials 
give  evidence  of  sincerity  and  of  confidence,  but  they  are  so  inade- 
quately staffed.  States'  attorneys  who  have  no  investigators  in  these 
small  towns,  that  I  am  somewhat  sympathetic  with  the  position  that 
they  find  themselves  in. 

The  Chairman.  Then  in  the  final  analysis  your  point  3  is  really 
the  basic  reason  for  most  of  the  difficulty ;  that  is,  public  indifference, 
or  the  lack  of  an  aroused  public. 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  think  it  is  a  very  major  contributing  factor. 
You  will  usually  find  in  these  communities  where  they  have  a  long, 


ORGAOTZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  213 

persistent  record  of  noneiiforcemeiit,  that  there  is  some  public  indica- 
tion about  it  and  some  public  concern  about  it,  but  it  frequently  repre- 
sents the  minority  attitude.  I  don't  want  to  be  misunderstood  there. 
I  think  once  the  people  fully  appreciate  what  is  going  on  m  their 
town,  thev  get  aroused.  For  the  most  part,  they  are  not  fully  appre- 
ciative of  what  is  going  on  in  their  counties.  I  can  illustrate  by 
the  case  of  Lake  County,  adjoining  Chicago  to  the  north,  the  county 
in  which  I  live.  The  eastern  portion  of  that  county  along  the  shore 
of  Lake  Michigan  is  inhabited  by  people  who  for  the  most  part  work 
in  Chicago  and  commute  back  and  forth  to  Chicago.  They  have 
little  knowledge,  awareness,  or  concern,  apparently,  as  to  conditions 
that  persist  in  the  county  to  the  west  of  them.  It  is  that  sort  of 
thing  that  I  refer  to.  I  don't  say  it  in  criticism.  I  say  it  more 
in  a^ense  of  frustration  and  disappointment  of  people  who  do  not 
have  a  proper  interest  in  local  government. 

The  Chairman.  What  part  of  gambling  have  your  State  enforce- 
ment officers  found  to  be  syndicated  or  so-called  big-time  organized 

activity?  t  •       i          t 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  wish  I  could  answer  that  simply.  1  am 
afraid  I  can't.  Senator,  for  this  reason:  We  are  not  equipped  to 
make  elaborate  investigations  of  personnel,  individuals,  connections, 
and  that  sort  of  thing\  About  all  we  can  do  is  to  go  in  and  seize 
the  equipment  and  appear  before  the  court  and  ask  for  an  order  of 
destruction.  Therefore,  I  don't  think  we  can  say  with  any  cer- 
tainty that  we  know  too  much  about  connection,  syndicates,  and  so 
on.  I  can- say,  however,  that  I  think  we  have  some  evidence,  at  least 
by  hearsay,  of  the  existence  of  some— and  don't  hold  me  to  this 
figure— some  35  syndicates  of  various  cities,  whether  it  is,  say,  a  local 
dtstributor  of  slot  machines  or  whether  it  is  the  local  agency  of  a 
much  larger  distributor.  That  material  I  don't  have  here,  but  I 
would  be^very  glad  to  have  the  director  of  public  safety  or  the 
attorney  general's  office  or  someone  appear  again  at  your  convenience 
and  o-ive  you  whatever  we  have  or  even  preferably  I  would  be  delighted 
to  have  a' representative  of  the  committee  come  to  Springfield  and  go 
through  our  public  safety  department  files. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  very  generous,  but  we  would  appreciate  it 
if  you  would  have  someone  send  us  such  information  as  you  have  on 
that  point.  ^ 

(  The  information  furnished  is  identified  as  exhibit  No.  2i,  and  is  on 

file  with  the  committee.) 

The  Chairman.  Governor  Stevenson,  it  is  not  our  province  to  rec- 
ommend for  or  against  State  or  local  legislation  on  its  merits,  but  we 
have  been  very  much  interested  in  the  difficulty  and  I  think  perhaps 
unsuccessful,  although  hardjight  you  made  in  the  last  legislature  to 
try  to  get  some  improvement  in  criminal  procedure  and  grand- jury 
proceedings  and  what  not.  In  that  connection  would  you  describe 
theoppositionandthe  difficulty  you  had  with  it?  . 

Governor  Stevenson.  In  anticipation  of  that  question,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, I  have  done  no  more  than  try  to  refresh  my  own  recollection  of 
precisely  what  happened  by  reference  to  the  legislative  digest,  which, 
accounts  for  the  fate  of  thebills  sponsored  by  the  Chicago  Crime  Com- 
mission in  the  last  session  of  the  legislature.  There  were  five  of  them 
in  all.     Two  of  these  bills  never  passed  the  Senate.     They  died  m 


214  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

committee.  Three  of  tliem  passed  the  senate  and  went  to  the  house. 
In  the  case  of  two  of  them  the  house  committee  on  the  judiciary  rec- 
ommended that  they  do  not  pass  and  the  bills  were  tabled  in  committee. 
In  the  third,  the  grand  jury  bill,  which  was  the  one  on  which  there 
was  a  general  concentration  of  effort  to  secure  its  passage,  the  house 
judiciary  committee  recommended  that  the  bill  do  not  pass.  On  the 
floor  of  the  house  there  was  a  motion  to  nonconcur  with  the  committee 
report,  and  on  the  roll  call  in  the  house,  June  1,  194:9,  the  bill  was 
tabled  by  a  vote  of  66  to  56. 

I  don't  have  tlie  breakdown  name  by  name  of  the  vote  in  the  liouse. 
I  can  add  only  that  this  was  a  bitter  contest.  There  were  elements 
in  the  legishiture  which  were  opposed  to  these  bills  and  have  been 
traditionally.  I  think  you  are  all  familiar  with  that.  On  the  other 
hand,  there  were  many  very  conscientious  people — perhaps  I  shouldn't 
say  man}'',  but  there  were  a  number,  and  I  recall  talking  to  all  of  them 
one  by  one  personally — who  voted  against  this  grand  jury  bill,  for  rea- 
sons that  I  cannot  in  any  way  associate  with  any  desire  to  frustrate 
criminal  justice.  They  sprang  from  lawyers'  convictions  about  proper 
administration  of  justice.  They  sprang  perhaps  in  part  from  a  mis- 
understanding of  the  use  to  which  an  extension  of  the  term  of  the 
grand  jury  in  a  county  was  put,  the  fears  of  political  persecution  and 
things  of  that  kind.  There  were  many  downstate  members  who  voted 
against  this  bill,  people  in  no  way  connected  with  the  Chicago  crime 
situation. 

The  Chairman.  Is  it  fair  to  say,  however,  that  there  was  srbstantial 
opposition  to  the  bill  and  to  the  other  parts  of  the  program  flowing  out 
of  what  you  believe  to  be  a  desire  to  protect  certain  criminal  elements 
or  certain  types  of  illegal  activities? 

Governor  Stevenson.  That  is  my  surmise.  Obviously  I  can't  prove 
that,  but  that  is  my  surmise.  I  think  that  is  generally  conceded  to 
be  true. 

The  Chairman.  Was  it  the  West  Side  senators  from  Chicago — is 
that  the  section? 

Mr.  KoBiNsoN.  The  river  wards. 

Governor  Stevenson.  Both  senators  and  members  of  the  house  who 
were  bitterly  opposed  to  it.  I  must  add  there  were  others  bitterly 
opposed  to  it  who  were  in  no  way  identified  with  them. 

The  Chairman.  Governor  Stevenson,  what  province,  if  any,  or  what 
additional  activity  do  you  think  Congress  might  take  on  behalf  of  the 
Federal  (iovernment  to  supplement  or  to  assist  or  in  any  way  properly 
to  help  State  or  local  law-enforcement  officers  with  their  problem? 

Governor  Stevenson.  Senator,  in  a  preliminary  way,  because  I 
might  have  more  considered  views  later  on  this,  I  think  there  are  three 
ways  that  occur  to  me,  none  of  which  isjny  original  thought.  One  is 
of  course  to  forbid  the  interstate  shipment  of  gambling  devices. 

The  Chairman.  How  would  that  help  you  here  in  Illinois  ?  Aren't 
most  of  the  coin  machines  made  in  the  State  of  Illinois? 

Governor  Ste\tenson.  They  are.  I  think  virtually  all  of  them  are 
actually  made  in  Chicago.  It  would  help  us  in  this  respect,  I  thiidc 
and  hope :  That  if  the  business  was  confined  wholly  to  the  manufac- 
ture of  slot  machines  for  Illinois,  and  if  we  had  vigorous  and  con- 
tinuous law  enforcement  in  Illinois,  you  would  dry  up  the  market. 
That  is  fairly  obvious.    I  think  it  would  help  us  in  that  respect. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  215 

I  also  think  that  the  interstate  distribution  by  wire  in  any  of  its 
forms  of  racing:  news  would  tend  to  make  opei'ation  of  horse  parlors 
and  bookie  joints  less  profitable  and  i^erhaps  thus  break  the  back  of 
that  problem. 

There  is  one  other  thing  that  I  should  like  to  add  on  which  I  don't 
speak  with  any  great  degree  of  confidence.  It  has  always  seemed  to 
me  anomolous  and  contradictory  that  tlie  Federal  Government  should 
issue  tax  stamps  for  oambling  devices;  in  other  words,  that  tlie  Fed- 
eral Government  should  tax  Avhat  the  State  of  Illinois  outlaws.  I 
believe  I  would  recommend  that  the  Federal  Government  repeal  the 
Federal  tax  on  gambling  devices  on  slot  machines,  et  cetera,  in  States 
where  they  are  illegal.  It  makes  for  confusion,  makes  for  a  curious 
moral  confusion  at  the  local  level.  People  simply  cannot  understand 
why  the  Federal  Government  licenses,  as  they  put  it — we  know  it  isn't 
a  license,  it  is  a  tax — they  call  it  a  license,  why  it  licenses  a  device  and 
we  destroy  it.  That  is  a  difficulty  that  I  think  could  be  remedied  by 
the  repeal  of  the  tax  provision. 

The  Chairman.  In  States  where  they  are  illegal? 

(xovernor  Ste\-exson.  Where  they  are  illegal;  yes.  There  is  a  cer- 
tain inconsistency  about  that. 

The  Chairman.  JNIayb?  Mr.  Kerner  can  help  us  out  on  this.  Is  there 
a  precedent  for  applying  a  tax  provision  to  one  State  without  applying 
it  to  the  Xation  generally? 

Mr.  Kerner.  I  know  of  none. 

The  Chairman.  Or  some  of  your  internal  revenue  people  may  help 
us. 

Mr.  Kerner.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  a  similar  type  of  stamp  tax  is  the 
alcohol  stamp,  which  is  issuable  of  course  in  dry  States  as  well  as  wet 
States. 

The  Chairman.  I  think  that  is  a  problem  that  this  committee  should 
cope  with  and  go  into.  We  have  had  that  same  complaint  brought  to 
our  attention  many  places,  that  it  takes  away  the  moral  sting  of  having 
these  things  if  the  Federal  Government  gives  them  some  sanction  by 
taxing  them. 

Governor  Stevenson.  At  least  the  people  think  it  is  a  sanction, 
whether  it  is  or  not. 

Mr.  Kerner.  The  advantage  that  I  can  see,  Governor — it  has  been 
used  certainly  extensively  in  the  last  few  years,  particularly  in  Cook 
County  and  perhaps  by  the  State — has  been  the  publication  of  the 
names  of  the  individuals  and  the  locations  of  the  various  slot  ma- 
chines, which  has  then  been  used  as  an  address  book,  you  might  say, 
for  the  local  law  enforcing  authorities  to  investigate  those  locations 
and  find  these  slot  machines  and  take  them  and  destroy  them. 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  would  like  to  say  there,  in  view  of  what  the 
United  States  attorney  sa3^s,  that  we  have  had  the  utmost  cooperation 
from  the  collector  of  internal  revenue  in  making  available  to  us  infor- 
mation about  tax  stamp  applications,  which  have  given  us  the  lead  on 
many  locations ;  and  somewhat  due  to  our  initiative,  I  think,  they  have 
started  this  practice  of  publication  of  these  localities  for  the  first  time 
in  the  history  of  Illinois  in  the  last  6  months,  continuous  weekly  publi- 
cation of  all  applications  for  tax  stamps.  That  has  been  a  useful 
thing  which  we  would  lose  in  the  event  you  repealed  the  tax  stamp. 

The  Chairman.  I  saw  in  some  Chicajro  paper  some  months  ago 
editorials  indicating  that  the  Internal  Revenue  Department  ceased 


216  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

posting  a  list  of  slot  macliine  applications  here  in  Cook  County.  I 
spoke  to  Mr.  Foley  about  it.  I  tliink  that  that  decision  was  reversed, 
wasn't  it,  Mr.  Kerner? 

Mr.  Keener.  I  don't  know  exactly  what  took  place,  but  I  do  recall 
that  I  believe  it  was  said  that  it  would  be  withheld  for  a  period  of 
time,  his  tabulation  of  those  licenses,  and  he  did  later,  I  believe,  around 
the  1st  of  September  or  thereabouts,  tabulate  them  for  the  newspapers. 
In  other  words,  there  are  not  only  gamblino;  device  licenses  in  that 
section  of  the  cashier's  office,  but  apparently  all  other  types  of  Federal 
license  stamps.  It  was  just  a  temporary  manpower  shortage  that 
caused  the  refusal  to  give  that  information  at  that  time. 

Governor  Stevenson.  In  the  district  situated  in  Springfield,  Mr, 
Chairman,  they  have  issued  the  figures  and  the  names  from  the  start, 
when  we  commenced  this  thing  6  months  ago. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  any  difficulty.  Governor  Stevenson, 
with  the  j^resent  fugitive  from  justice  law,  that  is,  in  certain  types 
of  cases  the  Federal  Government  helps  you  get  people  back,  in  felonies, 
I  believe?  Is  there  anything  to  the  argument  from  your  viewpoint 
that  the  Fugitive  From  Justice  Act  should  be  extended  and  strength- 
ened? Or  has  it  worked  to  thwart  an  administration  of  justice  in 
Illinois? 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  am  really  not  ]:>repared  to  connnent  on 
that.  I  just  don't  know.  That  has  not  been  a  problem  that  has  come 
to  my  attention. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  any  questions,  Mr.  Halley  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  No  questions. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Robinson  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman;  I  would  like  to  ask  the  Gov- 
ernor three  or  four  questions. 

Governor,  did  you  experience  any  difficulty  in  connection  with  the 
Hyde  Park  raid  so  far  as  the  courts  were  concerned  ? 

Governor  Ste\^nson.  We  are  in  the  midst  of  a  great  deal  of  diffi- 
culty I'ight  now.  It  is  important  to  distinguish  between  the  two 
establishments,  the  200  Clul)  and  the  Hyde  Park  Club.  In  one  case 
the  operators  plead  guilty.  There  was  no  problem  there,  or  relatively 
little  problem  aside  from  delays  and  what  not.  In  case  of  the  other 
one  tliey  didn't,  and  there  we  are  now  confronted  with  an  opinion  by 
the  count}^  court,  the  county  judge  of  Madison  County  which  finds 
that  the  State  of  Illinois  has  no  legal  authority  to  use  the  State  police 
for  gambling  raids.  He  has  construed  very  narrowly  the  statute 
which  recites  the  jurisdiction  of  the  State  jiolice,  and  he  has  refused 
to  order  the  destruction  of  the  equipment  seized  in  that  raid  or  the 
money.  He  has  entered  an  order  to  the  State  to  turn  over  the  equip- 
ment and  the  money  to  the  operators.  It  presents  us  with  some  diffi- 
culty because  he  doesn't  define  and  doesn't  indicate  who  the  operators 
are,  so  we  don't  know  to  whom  to  turn  it  over,  just  as  an  example  of 
what  seems  to  me  the  incongruities  in  this  decision. 

In  the  second  place,  if  he  narrowly  limits  the  jurisdiction  of  the 
State  police  to  crimes  committed  on  the  highways  only,  you  can  see 
the  implications.  Does  that  mean  that  a  State  policeman  can't  pre- 
vent a  murder  or  a  felony  off  the  highway?     It  seems  incredible. 

In  that  case,  however,  we  have  already  appeared  before  the  judge 
again  to  ask  him  to  reconsider  his  order  and  to  amplify  it,  and  I  have 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    I^'    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  217 

no  doubt  that  we  will  take  an  appeal  from  it  and  that  ultimately  we 
\rill  get  a  decision  of  the  hijrhest  tribunal  in  Illinois. 

The  details  with  respect  to  this  tlnng  are  extensive,  and  I  think  it 
you  would  like  to  have  a  more  elaborate  description  of  the  legal  pro- 
ceedino-s  down  there  I  would  have  to  provide  it  to  you  otherwise  or  ask 
to  be  lieard  again,  or  preferably  I  would  suggest  that  those  questions 
be  addressed  to  the  attorney  general. 

Mr  RoBixsoN.  I  was  just  interested  m  that  one  point,  i  had  seen 
some  comment  on  it,  that  there  had  been  some  legal  qiestion  raised 
about  the  authority  of  the  State  police  under  the  law  to  do  what  they 

did.  ,  11- 

Governor  Stevenson.  You  see,  that  was  a  bookie  case. 
The  Chairman.  Is  that  the  case  this  fellow  Moore  ran,  or  is  that 
the  Hyde  Park  Club?  .    „    ,    .. 

Governor  Ste%'enson.  It  was  the  Hyde  Park,  Moore  s  place. 
Mr.  Flanagan.  Moore's  was  the  Hyde  Park. 

Governor  STE^-ENS0N.  You  see.  Senator,  if  this  opinion  stands,  we 
can't  even  raid  slot  machines,  let  alone  bookies,  because  the  opinion 
doesn't  limit  itself  wholly  to  the  type  of  devices  seized  pursuant  to  a 
seai-ch  warrant.  In  these  two  bookie  cases  it  says  categorically  that 
the  State  police  have  no  right  to  interfere  in  matters  of  local  law 
enforcement. 

The  Chairman.  Anvthing  else.  Mr.  Robinson? 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  have  one  further  question,  Governor.  You  men- 
tioned that  there  were  perhaps  a  number  of  legislators  who  sincerely 
voted  against  the  grand  jury  bill.  Do  you  know  .whether  or  not  those 
same  individuals  voted  against,  I  think  you  called  it  the  provisions  ot 
the  legislation  seeking  to  change  the  constitution  to  provide  a  way  for 
amencling  the  constitution  ? 

Governor  Stevenson.  No.  I  am  sure  not  all  of  them  by  any  means. 
There  was  a  group  of  representatives  from  the  city  of  Chicago  who 
were  obviouslv  more  preoccupied  with  defeating  the  grand  jury  bill 
than  they  were  with  the  constitutional  convention.  I  think  that  is 
what  vou  are  referring  to. 

Mr.*^  Robinson.  That  is  true.  ,  ,        i 

Governor  Stevenson.  That  was  the  trade  that  you  have  heard 
mentioned  from  time  to  time? 

What  I  was  saying  is  that  there  were  fellows  who  voted  against 
these  bills  in  good  conscience.  I  think  thev  were  misguided  and 
wrono-  but  thev  did.  Thev  were  not  people  who  by  any  remote  chance 
you  TOukl  identify  with  any  syndicate  representation  or  gambler 
representation  in  the  legislature. 

Mr   Robinson.  Governor,  has  there  come  to  your  attention  at  all 

any  examples  of  influence  of  the  so-called  mob  on  State,  county,  or 

local  political  organizations^  n.   .1    .  t  i  ^     .,. 

Governor  Stevenson.  I  can't  say  that  myself,  that  I  know  ot  any 

connection  between  the  mob  and  local  political  organizations. 

Mr  Robinson    Bv  wav  of  political  contributions  or  otherwise. 

Governor  Stevenson.  "I  just  don't  know.     It  is  entirely  hearsay  and 

f     suspicion  on  my  part.     I  can't  testify  from  any  personal  knowledge. 

You  do  run  into  things  that  don't  have  perhaps  any  too  much  to  with 

bi-  oro-anized  syndicates  in  localities  throughout  Ilhnois  where  there 

ha^.  been   a   sort   of  bipai-tisan   arrangement    apparently   tor   years, 

68958 — 51 — 1  c.  '. 15 


218  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

whereby  one  party  elects  the  sheriff'  and  the  other  party  the  State's 
attorney,  and  then  when  the  people  complain  about  non-law  enforce- 
ment they  pass  the  buck  back  and  forth  and  ])ut  the  people  in  a  sort 
of  cross  rut  between  the  two  parties,  each  on  disclaiming  any  responsi- 
bility for  it  and  blaming  the  other.  Then  in  the  next  election  they 
will  reverse  the  tables,  and  a  Democrat  will  become  State's  attorney 
and  a  Republican  sheriff',  and  vice  versa.  I  don't  identify  that  Avith 
any  major  organization  that  may  exist. 

Mr.  Robinson.  It  also  has  been  indicated.  Governor,  that  this 
so-called  syndicate  through  shady  ward  committeemen  control  several 
thousand  votes  in  Illinois.  Do  you  have  any  comment  to  make  on 
tlnU  ? 

Governor  Stevenson.  None  except  the  obvious  one  that  if  they  are 
as  powerful  as  they  appear  to  be,  I  would  imagine  they  certainly  did, 
but  I  can't  give  you  any  information  to  prove  anything  of  that  kind. 
It  is  just  surmise.  I  would  like  to  make  it  ]:)erfectly  clear.  Senator, 
that  in  telling  you  what  we  have  done  I  haven't  gone  into  detail.  We 
have  done  a  lot  of  things.  We  have  been  at  pains  to  talk  with  the 
telephone  company  and  with  the  Western  Union  Co.,  to  get  their 
cooperation.  We  have  attempted  to  use  the  Liquor  Control  Act  of 
Illinois  as  device  for  enforcing  the  gambling  laws.  We  have  had 
some  bad  luck  on  that.  We  are  in  court  on  that,  as  you  can  imagine. 
We  have  attempted  to  withhold  or  to  suspend  the  issuance  of  retail 
liquor  licenses  in  establishments  which  have  condoned  gambling,  where 
there  have  been  actual  raids,  where  it  is  demonstrable.  The  supreme 
court  has  granted  a  writ  of  error,  certiorari,  or  something  or  other, 
and  is  going  to  review  that  matter. 

The  Chairman.  We  had  some  testimony  that  the  matter  of  issuing 
a  liquor  permit,  either  retail  or  wholesale,  was  purely  a  local  matter 
with  the  city  police  here  in  Chicago,  for  instance.  I  wondered  if 
the  State  did  have  some  jurisdiction  over  these  permits. 

Governor  Stevenson.  The  law  in  Illinois  has  been  construed  by  the 
lower  court  to  be  in  effect  that  the  State  must  issue  a  license  to  any 
tavern  that  has  been  licensed  by  the  city.  We  have  taken  the  position 
that,  no;  that  would  make  the  State's  function  meaningless  and  that 
the  State  itself  must  review  the  qualifications  of  applicants.  The  ap- 
pellate court  reversed  the  lower  court  and  now  it  is  on  appeal  to  the 
State  supreme  court,  but  it  won't  be  a  satisfactory  answer  in  that 
particular  case  because  it  doesn't  relate  to  gambling  per  se.  We  have 
had  a  great  many  difficulties.  We  take  the  ])Osition  that  if  we  are 
going  to  go  into  this  thing,  however  reluctantly,  we  have  to  go  in  it 
all  the  way.  As  I  say,  we  have  encountered  this  decision  in  Madison 
County  which  challenges  the  whole  problem  of  the  State's  constitu- 
tional right  to  intervene,  and  we  have  also  encountered  this  very 
limited  notion  of  what  the  powers  of  the  State  patrol  are. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  connection  with  activities  to  suppress  slot  ma- 
chines, have  you  encountered  any  propaganda  efforts  on  the  part  of 
the  manufacturers  of  slot  machines  or  association  of  the  manufac- 
turers of  slot  machines  to  jilay  up  the  fact  that  slot  machines  are  used 
by  charitable  organizations  for  charitable  purposes  and  provide  a 
means  for  obtaining  money  for  those  purposes,  and  play  down  the 
use  of  slot  machines  for  outright  gambling  activities? 

Governor  Stevenson.  No  ;  I  haven't  encountered  that.  I  have  had 
no  personal  contact  with  the  associations  of  the  industry.     I  was  under 


ORGA^^IZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  219 

the  impression  that  they  had  been  rather  cooperative.  I  am  afraid  I 
can't  comment  intelligently  on  that.  It  is  a  little  vague  to  me.  It  is 
just  things  I  have  heard. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  Governor  Stevenson,  we  are  most  grateful  to  you 
for  coming  and  giving  us  the  benefit  of  your  experienced  recommenda- 
tions.    I  know  it  has  been  quite  a  sacrifice. 

(Off  the  record.) 

FURTHER  TESTIMONY  OF  PAUL  DeLUCIA   (PAUL  RICCA),  RIVER 

FOREST.  ILL. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  DeLucia.  you  have  been  previously  sworn  in 
this  proceeding,  and  Mr.  Robinson  has  some  additional  questions  he 
wants  to  ask  you. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Before  you  start.  Mr.  Robinson,  I  received  a  letter 
the  other  day  about  me  bringing  some  more  checks.  I  tried  to  see  you 
yesterday,  and  I  want  to  explain.  I  haven't  got  them  checks.  That 
was  from  away  back. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  see. 

I  think  you  previously  testified  regarding  the  fact  that  you  had  im. 
cash  the  sum  of  $300,000  before  you  went  into  the  penitentiary. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  that  you  had  that  sum,  of  course,  when  j'oii 
came  out. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  that  the  total  amount  that  you  had? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  had  about  that  much;  yes.  I  give  it  the  best  I 
could. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  have  you  done  with  that  $300,000  since  you 
came  out  of  the  penitentiary  ? 

]VIr.  DeLucia.  I  used  it  on  my  farm,  for  living,  and  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  of  it  do  you  have  left  at  the  present  time? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you  I  had  about  $40,000  left. 

Mr.  Robinson.  $40,000  left  out  of  the  $300,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  purpose  of  putting  that  back  into  the 
farm? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well.  I  can't  get  in  no  business.  When  I  come  out 
1  coidd  do  nothing.  I  had  the  farm,  so  I  figured  the  farm  was  in- 
terrible  shape  and  I  had  to  do  all  that  building  and  all  that. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Is  there  any  other  reason  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  make  some  saving  on  your  income  tax  in 
that  respect,  by  putting  your  capital  back  into  the  farm? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose  the  bookkeeper  can  tell  you  better  that.  It 
is  a  capital  investment. 

j\Ir.  Robinson.  I  believe  you  also  testified  previously,  Mr.  DeLucia^ 
that  you  had  made  several  loans  since  you  came  out  of  the  penitentiary- 
Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes;  two  loans. 

jVIr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  when  the  first  one  was? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  the  first  one  was  around  1948.  I  am  not  sure 
about  1048. 


220  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  receive  a  loan  from  Mr.  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When,  to  the  best  of  your  recollection  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  To  the  best  of  my  recollection  it  was  around  the 
spring  or  a  little  later  than  the  spring,  something  around  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  how  long  it  was  after  you  came 
out  of  the  penitentiary  that  you  made  that  loan? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  would  say  about  a  year,  anyway. 

Mr.  Robinson.  A  year  after  you  came  out  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Something  like  that,  maybe  less  or  more. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  tell  what  the  circumstances  were  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you,  Mr.  Robinson,  I  figured  I  had  to  spend  a 
lot  of  money  there.  I  made  my  plans  to  improve  the  farm  to  the  best 
I  could  do  it,  and  I  said  with  this  money  I  got,  I  always  try  to  keep 
some  cash  on  hand,  and  I  tried  to  borrow  some  money  on  my  house  or 
something  so  I  have  some  money  to  play  with. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Why  did  you  pick  Mr.  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because  Bennett — I  couldn't  go  to  no  bank.  Nobody 
would  borrow  me  any  money  on  my  reputation  and  all  that,  so  I 
scratched  my  head  and  said,  "Oh,  gee."  I  knew  Bennett  was  working 
at  the  track,  and  I  said,  "Maybe  he  can  help  me."  I  called  him,  and 
that  is  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Hadn't  you  got  even  loans  from  banks  or  insurance 
companies  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $11,000  worth.  I  went  to  the  bank  where  I  was  deal- 
ing, and  I  asked  them  if  I  could  get  more  money,  and  I  brought  my 
insurance  policy,  securities  and  this  and  that.  I  couldn't  get  a  penny. 
He  said,  "No,  you  have  to  bring  collateral  or  else  you  get  nothing." 
So  I  had  to  get  all  my  bonds,  the  bonds  I  had  and  put  them  in  escrow 
to  them  and  I  got  dollar  for  dollar.  That  is  the  chance  the  bank  took. 
So  that  is  all  I  got.  I  talked  to  Bennett  and  I  explained  my  situation, 
and  lie  said  I  will  try  to  do  the  best  I  can. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  get  in  touch  with  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember.  It  was  somewhere  around  that 
time.  I  was  looking  out  for  myself  ahead,  Mr.  Robinson.  He  said  "I 
will  let  you  know."  Then  later  on  I  called  and  he  said,  "Any  time  you 
want  it." 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  see  him  personally  or  call  him  by  telephone 
first? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  called  him  by  phone  first. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  asked  him  then  for  the  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  called  him  and  wanted  to  see  him.  He  came  over 
to  the  house  and  I  talked  to  him, 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  have  known  Bennett  for  a  long  time.  I  laiew  him 
when  he  was  a  kid. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  times  had  you  seen  him  while  you  were 
in  the  penitentiaiy  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  never  saw  him  in  the  penitentiary. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  ever  write  to  you  in  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  times  did  you  see  him  before  you  went 
into  the  penitentiary  ? 


ORGA^^^ZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  221 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  asked  him  about  the  track  or  something  like  that. 
I  used  to  see  him  sometime  with  the  family  or  somethuig  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  frequently  would  that  be  ? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  you  have  got  me  on  something  I  wouldn't  know, 
not  so  much,  but  quite"^  a  few  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  it  be  four  or  five  times  a  year '. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  would  say  so,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Not  more  than  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  maj'be  more  or  less. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  know  Bennett's  father? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  very  well.     I  know  his  brother. 

Mr.  Robinson.  AAliat  business  is  his  father  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  His  father  was  a  painter,  as  much  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  By  painter  you  mean 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  an  amateur  painter,  or  something,  but  here 
is  what  it  is :  The  real  story  is  that  he  used  to  be,  when  I  used  to  work 
in  the  theater,  when  first  I  came  over  here,  he  used  to  take  part  m  the 
Italian  show  there.  He  used  to  play  parts.  He  would  take  part  m 
the  show.     That  is  how  I  know  him. 

Mr.  Hallet.  ^Yhs^t  is  Bennett "s  right  name? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Benvenuti. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  was  the  first  loan  made? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember,  ]\Ir.  Robinson.  I  think  the  first 
one  I  got  $10,000.     Then  I  got  the  rest. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  get  the  rest? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  if  I  got  checks  or  cash. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  whether  or  not  you  got  a  check  first 

from  Bennett?  ^     ^        ^       ^  ^..^n  ^.^^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  I  got  the  first  check  and  then  I  got  $30,000 
check,  I  think,  all  by  check. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  definitely  remember  whether  you  got  the  second 
check  of  $30,000  from  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  pretty  sure.  Don't  hold  me  to  that,  lou 
know,  Mr.  Robinson,  I  try  to  tell  you  the  best  of  my  recollection,  and 
1  think  that  is  what  it  is.  Don't  hold  me  to  it  because  lot  of  things 
happen  to  me  and  my  mind  at  times  gets  hazy  on  this  stuff. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  how  you  would  get  a  $30,000  loan. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  I  cot  a  check  both  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  at  any  time  get  cash  as  part  of  that  $30,000  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  don't  think  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  you  say  you  didn't  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wouldn't  say  that,  but  I  am  pretty  sure  1  got 
checks.     I  deposited  it  in  the  bank.  ■  x,    i        «    i. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  there  a  mortgage  that  went  with  that  nrst 
$40,000  loan? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  On  what  property. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  On  Long  Beach.  I  told  them,  I  said,  "I  am  going 
to  sell  this."  I  had  a  prospect  for  sale.  They  came  around,  t  irst 
they  sav  they  do  and  then  when  we  tried  to  close  the  deal  they  backed 
down.  "^  I  have  a  few  prospects  now  to  sell.  As  soon  as  I  sell  I  gave 
him  the  money. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  actually  give  a  mortgage  on  that  property  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why  certainly. 


222  ORGANIZED    CRIME'    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  what  the  terms  of  the  note  were? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  the  mortgage  was  around  4  or  5  percent.  I 
don't  know,  4  or  5  percent  interest,  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  there  any  due  date  on  the  mortgage? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  5  years.     I  figured  in  5  years  I  would  sell. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  paid  no  interest  on  that  mortgage? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  that  part  of  the  arrangement? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  ]\Iy  understanding  was  that  I  was 
going  to  pay  the  whole  thing.  You  see,  the  idea  was  that  I  was  going 
to  sell  the  house. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  receive  the  second  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  second  loan  I  got  a  check — I  met  him  at  the 
Cicero  bank  and  I  think  the  check  was  cashed  over  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  the  check  made  out  to  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  To  me;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  was  cashed  at  the  Cicero  bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  the  name  of  the  bank,  a  Cicero 
bank. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  do  with  that  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  kept  it  myself  and  I  used  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Diet  you  put  any  of  that  money  in  the  bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why  certainly,  whatever  money  I  had  left.  Until 
I  needed  some  money  for  the  family  I  put  it  in  the  bank. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  records  to  show  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  have  the  bank  records. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  that  $40,000  loan,  the  second 
one,  was  entered  in  your  books  or  not  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  so.     I  think  it  was  entered  in  my  books. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  keeps  your  books  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bernstein.     You  have  the  books  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  telling  him  to  enter  that  in  the 
books? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Certainly  he  put  it  in  the  books ;  yes. 

Mr.  H alley.  While  we  are  on  that  second  loan,  did  you  give  a  note 
for  it  ?     Did  you  sign  a  note  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1  gave  him  the  deed  to  the  farm  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  didn't  sign  the  deeds  over,  did  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     This  lawyer  got  all  that  stuff. 

Mr.  Halley.  Wliat  is  the  lawyer's  name  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Joe  Butler. 

The  Chairman.  Where  is  he  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  is  at  105  Adams  Street. 

Mr.  Halley.  Why  did  you  need  the  second  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because  I  was  getting  pretty  close.  I  needed  some 
more  money.    As  I  told  you,  I  always  like  to  keep  some  money  on  hand. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  made  the  first  loan  when,  how  soon  after  you  came 
out  of  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  about  a  year  or  shortly  after  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  after  that  did  you  make  the  second  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  This  year,  somewhere  in  the  summer,  the  early  part 
of  the  summer. 

INIr.  Halley.  Just  a  few  months  ago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 


ORGAMZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  223 

Mr.  Halley.  You  borrowed  a  second  $40,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  say  the  reason  is  that  you  were  getting  short 
of  cash  ? 

Mr  DeLucia.  Yes. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  You  received  a  check  from  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    I  signed  it  at  the  bank  and  I  got  cash. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  go  to  the  bank  with  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  His  bank? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  Some  bank  in  Cicero.  I  don't  know  if  it  was  his  bank 
or  not. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  bank? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  it  was  the  Cicero  State  Bank  or  something 
like  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  signed  the  back  of  the  check  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  testified  some  time  ago  that  you  still  had  $30,000 
or  $40,000  left  of  your  own  money. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Now,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  that  in  addition  to  the  $40,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  all  included. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  that  right  now  is  it  your  testimony  that  you  are 
broke  except  for  the  money  you  borrowed  from  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  ain't  broke.    I  got  about  $40,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  about  $40,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  say  you  got  $40,000  from  Bemiett  a  fevs 
months  ago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  the  $40,000  you  have  in  addition  to  what  you  got 
from  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  mixed  all  I  had.  When  I  got  the  money  I 
mixed  it  with  some  money  I  had  in  the  bank. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  right  now  you  have 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $40,000.    It  would  be  a  little  less  now. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  $40,000  is  what  you  owe  Bennett,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Also  you  owe  him  another  $40,000  on  the  mortgage  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  are  you  supposed  to  pay  the  second  $40,000 

back  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  it  is  about  5  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  about  5  years  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  give  him  something  in  writing? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  got  my  deeds  and  all  that  stuff  for  the  farm, 
whatever  it  is. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  write  something  on  the  back  of  the  deed  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No',  I  don't  remember  writing  anything. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  didn't  write  anything  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  write  anything  on  the  front  of  the  deed? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  just  handed  it  to  him  ? 


224  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  just  handed  him  the  deed,  that  is  all. 

Mr.  Halmy.  You  could  ^et  your  deeds  back.  That  doesn't  mean 
anything,  does  it,  handin<r  a  man  a  deed. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  understand  the  lawyer  to  say  it  was  all  right. 
Whatever  kind  of  deal  it  was,  I  don't  know.  Those  things  are  done 
by  a  lawyer.    I  don't  know  about  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  didn't  even  give  Bennett  a  note? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  approach  him  for  the  second  $40,000? 
Will  you  tell  the  committee  just  what  happened  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  called  him  again  and  I  said,  'T  need  a  little  more 
money  here.  I  tried  to  get  money  from  the  Metropolitan,  I  tried 
to  get  money  from  the  Oak  Park  and  I  tried  to  get  money  from  the 
Prudential  because  I  figured  maybe  I  could  make  a  mortgage  there, 
and  they  all  turned  me  clown." 

I  said,  "Hugh,  I  am  in  the  same  predicament,"  and  asked  him  if 
he  would  help  me  out  and  he  said  he  would. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  go  to  see  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    He  came  over  to  the  house. 

Mr.  Halley.  About  when  did  he  come,  would  you  say  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember  that,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  summertime  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  How  can  you  remember  that  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  a  very  important  thing  to  remember,  so  let's 
try  hard? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  come  over  to  the  house  and  I  told  him,  see? 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  it  in  May,  June 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  was  around  there.  It  was  shortly  before  I  got  the 
mortgage. 

Mr.  Halley.  Shortly  before  you  got  the  mortgage. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  He  said  give  me  the  paper  and  I  will  have  a 
lawyer  work  on  it. 

Mr,  Halley.  We  are  not  talking  about  the  mortgage.  We  are 
talking  about  the  second  loan. 

JNIr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  There  was  no  mortgage  on  the  second  loan? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  They  have  got  it,  the  lawyer.  I  don't  know.  It  is 
at  the  bank  or  some  place. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  thought  3^ou  said  that  the  mortgage  was  on  the  first 
loan. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A  mortgage  on  the  farm,  too,  on  the  second  loan. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  made  out  a  second  mortgage  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  thought  you  said  you  didn't  sign  any  papers. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  didn't  sign  any  papers.  I  don't  remember  signing 
any  papers.    If  I  signed  any  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  coulcl  you  give  a  mortgage  without  signing  a 
paper? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because  my  property  is  in  trust  with  the  Oak  Park 
National  Bank,  and  I  told  them  that  and  they  went  over  to  the  bank 
there  and  they  made  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  they  got  a  mortgage  from  the  Oak  Park 
Bank? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose ;  yes.     That  is  how  they  worked  it. 


O'RGAJ^IZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  225 

^\r  H\LLEY    What  lawyer  represented  you  in  the  transaction? 
Mr.'  S.^uciA.  I  didn't  have  a'  hxwyer.     The  Oak  Park  Bank  is  my 

trustee,  you  see.  •    .,    ^  o 

Mr.  Halley.  What  kind  of  trust  is  tliat  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  put  all  my  property  in  trust. 
Mr.  Halley.  Wlien  did  you  do  that? 

Mr  DeLucia.  I  did  that  I  think  about  a  year  or  so  after  I  came  out. 
Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  a  trust  of  which  you  are  the  beneticiary  i 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  my  kids  and  my  wife.  c  •     •     9 

Mr.  Halley.  Your  kids  and  your  wife  are  the  benehciaries  i 
Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.  .  ^     ,    •    ^^     ^      ^ 

Mr.  Halley.  The  Oak  Park  National  Bank  is  the  trustee. 
Mr.  DeLucia.  The  trustee;  yes.  n       .  .i     noV  Pnr^V 

Mr  H\LLEY.  With  whom  do  you  deal  personally  at  the  Oak  rarK 

Bank?     AVlio  is  the  man  who  takes  care  of  your  matters^ 

Mr  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  who  it  is.     I  think  the  fellow  who  did 

that  for  me  was  Joe  Bulger.     I  think  one  of  the  fellows  was  Tomasco 

and  Spring. 

Mr.  Halley.  Joe  Bulger?  -,    ,,     ,      ^  j- 

Mr  DeLucl\.  Joe  Bulger  is  the  one  that  made  the  trust  tor  nie. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  made  the  trust  for  you.     I  thought  you  said  he  was 

Bennett's  lawyer.  ,      .    -n,         ^.i.?    i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.     That  is  Butler  who  is  Bennett  s  lawyer. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  youi^  is  Bulger? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Bulger,  Joseph  Bulger.     You  know  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  Bulger  the  man  who  used  to  be  the  head  ot  the 
Italian- American  League  ? 

Mr.  DeLucl\.  Yes,  sir;  in  fact,  he  is  now. 

Mr.  Halley.  xind  he  is  your  lawyer?  '     ,.  xr    ^     i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.     He  was  on  that  thing.    He  took  care 

of  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  made  the  trust  lor  you. 

Mr.  DeLucia  That  is  right.  A^  a  -^9 

Mr  H\LLEY.  Wlio  are  the  people  at  the  bank  who  handled  iti 

Mr  DeLucia.  I  think  either  Mr.  Spring  or  Mr.  Tomasco. 

Mr.  Hai^ey.  Was  the  trust  an  irrevocable  trust,  do  you  know  i 

Mr!  DeLucl\.  I  don't  know  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  it  was  a  trust  for  your  children  and  your  wile  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.  ^  .1     i       n  ■     ■ 

Mr.  Ha-lley.  And  not  for  you?    Are  you  one  of  the  beneficiaries, 

^Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  My  understanding  is  that  it  is  me 
and  my  wife  and  the  kids. 

Mr. 'Halley.  This  trust? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  that  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  needed  $40,000  yourself. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr   Halley.  And  your  trustee  borrowed  $40,000  tor  you. 

Mr."  DeLucl\.  That  is  the  way  I  understand,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  the  trustee  agreed  to  give  you  a  mortgage? 

Mr  DeLucia.  I  suppose.  Don't  hold  me  on  that  technicality,  Mr. 
Halley  I  am  green  on  that.  I  told  you  what  happened,  and  that  is 
all  there  is.  If  you  go  into  those  details,  I  will  give  you  an  answer, 
I  want  to  give  you  an  answer  that  makes  sense. 


226  ORGANIZED    CRIME'  IX   INiTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

Mr  Halijsy.  The  technicalities  may  prove  to  be  important  and  we 
have  to  get  them. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  sure  I  can't  give  yon  a  better  answer  than  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Yon  give  the  best  answers  you  can. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  the  best  I  can  give  you. 

Mr.  Hali^ey.  You  needed  $40,000  for  yourself,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  what  purpose? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  For  the  farm,  for  living. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  living. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why,  sure,  for  my  farm  and  for  my  expenses  on  my 
larm  and  for  my  living.  -'       i  j 

Mr.  Halley.  At  that  time  how  much  money  did  you  have  left? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Jesus,  I  wouldn't  know,  Mr.  Halley.  I  was  gettino- 
pretty  low.  &         & 

Mr.  Halley.  We  can  figure  it  out  very  easily.  You  testified— 
Don  t  look  troubled  by  this.  This  is  very  important  and  I  would 
like  your  cooperation. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  try  to  give  you  all  I  can.  I  don't  know  how  much 
money  I  had.  I  don't  know  how  much  I  had  left.  I  know  it 
was  getting  pretty  low,  you  see,  Mr.  Halley,  but  I  can't  give  you  the 
number,    I  can't. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  had  a  bank  account,  didn't  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  what  bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Northern  Trust. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  the  bank  account  out  of  which  vou  handled 
all  the  expenses  for  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  your  living  expenses  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  some  w\as  cash,  you  see. 

Mr.  Halley.  Some  was  cash.  Do  vou  have  any  other  bank  ac- 
count ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 
f.n¥^^'  ^f^^EY.  Why  is  it  that  when  yon  get  a  sum  as  large  as  $40,- 
000  you  take  that  m  cash  and  do  not  put  it  in  the  bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  a  lot  of  monev  to  put  in  a  bank,  $40,000,  all 
at  one  time,  Mr.  Halley.  .     '      ' 

Mr.  Halley.  Don't  you  think  it  is  a  lot  of  money  to  keep  in  your 
house  m  cash?  i^        ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  needed  some  cash  for  the  house.  I  needed 
some  cash,  you  know,  you  never  can  tell.  So  I  figure  I  can  keep  the 
money.    I  always  like  to  keep  money  in  my  hands. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  what  did  yon  need  sums  in  money  in  cash? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  always  like  to  keep  money  in  cash 'on  hand.  I  was 
told  when  I  was  a  boy  to  keep  cash  money  on  hand  at  all  times. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  very  nice,  Mv.  Ki'cca,  but  we  are  serious  about 
that.  I  don't  care  about  what  yon  were  told  since  you  were  a  boy. 
What  I  want  to  know  is  this :  We  have  seen  your  books.  They  were 
kept  for  the  benefit  of  the  parole  officer,  and  everything  is  paid  by 
check  and  kept  in  the  books  in  great  detail.    Will  you  tell  this  com- 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE'  227 

]nittee  what  you  needed  large  sums  of  money  in  cash  for  3  or  4  months 
ago? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  always  have  cash  in  my  home. 

The  CiiAiRMAX.  Mr.  Ricca,  that  is  not  a  very  satisfactory  answer. 
You  have  a  bank  account  and  keep  a  lot  of  money  there. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Senator,  that  is  the  best  answer.  Maybe  you  won't 
believe  it,  but  that  is  true. 

The  Chairman.  There  isn't  anything  about  this  security  matter. 
The  money  is  more  secure  in  a  bank  than  it  is  in  a  box  in  your  house. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  We  want  to  know  why  you  had  to  keej)  such  large 
sums  of  monev  in  your  house  or  on  yourself. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  sorry,  Senator,  I  can't  give  a  better  answer  than 
that,  and  I  mean  it.  I  am  sincere  about  it.  I  always  like  to  keep 
money  in  my  hands. 

Mr.  Hallet.  At  the  time  you  borrowed  that  money  how  much 
money  of  your  own  did  you  have  left  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't' remember.  If  I  say  anything  else,  I  tell  you 
a  lie.    I  know  I  was  getting  pretty  low. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  was  getting  pretty  low. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  $10,000  left? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.    I  don't  know-. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  make  this  loan  ?  You  say  in  the  sum- 
mertime. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Two  or  three  months  ago,  something  like  that,  three 
or  four  months  ago. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  How  much  money  did  you  spend  in  the  last  3  months  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia.  You  have  it  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  have  it  where  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  the  reports  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  No ;  I  want  you  to  tell  me. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  remember,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  say  under  oath  that  it  is  your  testimony 
that  everything  you  spent  in  the  last  3  months  is  reflected  in  your 
books  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  would,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  spend  large  sums  in  cash  for  any  purpose 
whatsoever  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  use  any  money  for  gambling  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  lend  any  of  that  money  to  anyone  else 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Wait  and  get  the  question  now.  Did  you  lend  any 
of  that  money  to  anyone  else 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir ;  no.  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  Or  give  it  to  them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  are  sure  of  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Since  I  come  out,  Mr.  Halley,  I  made  a  good  start 
to  go  straight.  I  have  tried  to  straighten  myself  out  as  best  I  could. 
I  want  you  to  believe  me  on  that.  I  haven't  done  anything  out  of 
the  way  at  all. 


228  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr,  Halley.  How  did  you  expect  to  ffet  tlie  money  to  pay  back 
$40,000?  ■  J         I    .r 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  expected  that  in  the  next  year  or  so  the  farm  Avould 
be  producing  some  money  for  me.  I  have  "a  stock  of  steers  there,  I 
have  corn  coming  up,  I  have  420  acres  of  corn  to  sell,  I  have  about 
2  acres  of  soybeans  to  sell,  I  sold  about  $9,500  worth  of  wheat.  I 
tliink  if  I  fix  all  those  buildings,  and  I  had  to  have  a  place  to  keep 
the  animals  and  all  that,  I  think  the  steers  and  hogs  and  the  corn 
and  all  that — I  think  I  can  make  a  good  living.  It  is  a  big  farm, 
and  if  the  prices  hold  up  I  will  make  some  money.  If  I  don't  make 
any  money,  I  have  to  sell  the  farm ;  I  have  to  come  up  to  the  authorities 
and  say,  "I  can  do  nothing,  and  there  you  are."  I  will  go  to  the 
parole  people  and  tell  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  can't  sell  the  farm.     It  belongs  to  the  trustee. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What?  That  is  my  farm.  What  do  you  mean,  it 
belongs  to  the  trustee  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  You  gave  it  to  the  trustee  to  hold. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  If  I  don't  pay  the  mortgage,  they  are  going  to  come 
and  take  the  farm  away  from  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  the  point  of  the  trust,  Mr.  Kicca?  What  did 
you  have  a  trust  for  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  figured  in  case  I  die  or  something,  the  kids  have  the 
farm,  they  have  the  take.  Suppose  my  wife  gets  married  again  or 
something. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  form  the  trust  to  avoid  the  taxes  in  case  you 
died?  -^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Do  you  save  the  tax  if  you  die  with  a  trust? 

Mr.  Halley.  If  you  don't  own  it  you  don't  pay  a  tax. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  Imow  that.' 

Mr.  Halley.  I  am  curious  to  find  out  why  you  formed  the  trust. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  have  to  leave  it  to  somebody,  and  I  figured,  suppose 
I  die  tomorrow,  I  don't  know  what  my  wife  is  going  to  do. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can't  you  make  a  will  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose  so,  but 

iVIr.  Halley.  Who  advised  you  to  make  a  trust? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  talking  to  a  few  people  and  finally  I  talked  to 
Joe  Bulger,  and  Joe  Bulger  said  we  will  make  a  trust,  and  that  is  the 
end  of  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  you  say  was  your  purpose  in  making  the 
trust  ?     What  did  you  tell  him  you  wanted  to  accomplish  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  To  take  care  of  my  family. 

INIr.  Hali^ey.  To  take  care  of  your  family. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  many  automobiles  do  you  own  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  own  a  Cadillac. 

Mr.  Halley.  Nothing  else  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  a  station  wagon  on  the  farrn^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Just  the  one  Cadillac? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  bought  that  in  July  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  rijrht. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    m   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  229 

Mr.  Hallfa'.  Despite  the  fact  that  you  had  to  borrow  $40,000  to  live 

on?  nr  11  1  4-' 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  buv  a  car  every  3  years.  I  tell  you,  do  you  want 
to  know  why  I  bought  it?  The  war  came  up,  the  war  started  anci 
there  was  a  panic  about  getting  cars  and  I  said  I  might  as  well  get 
myself  a  car  in  case  trouble  comes. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  say  Bennett  came  to  your  farm  to  see  you  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  came  over  to  see  the  farm  before  he  made  the 
mortgage;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Had  he  been  to  the  farm  before  i 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  often? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  One  or  two  times,  I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  come  alone? 

]Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  say  he  would  have  any  trouble  raising  the 
$40,000?  ,      , 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  second  time  I  saw  him  he  said  "Yes,  I  think  I 
can  do  it,"  and  that  is  all. 

INIr.  Halley.  Is  he  a  very  wealthy  man  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know,  Mr.  Halley.  He  has  some  money,  I 
don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  made  you  think  of  Bennett  as  the  man  who 
would  lend  you  $80,000? 

;Mr.  DeLucia.  I  figured  after  I  got  through  being  turned  down  at 
the  bank,  I  went  to  him,  and  if  he  had  turned  me  down  I  would  have 
looked  for  somebody  else. 

The  Chairman.  There  is  one  thing  I  didn't  understand.  You  said 
after  you  got  through  with  the  banks  you  went  to  Mr.  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairmax.  Did  you  make  application  to  some  banks? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Certainly. 

The  Chairman.  What  banks? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  Metropolitan,  and  they  came  out  to  investigate. 
The  Prudential  came  out  and  investigated. 

The  Chairman.  You  are  talking  about  the  Metropolitan  and  Pru- 
dential insurance  companies? 

jSIr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  To  what  banks  did  you  make  application? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Huh  ? 

The  Chairman.  Those  are  insurance  companies. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Prudential  has  my  mortgage. 

The  Chairman.  I  know,  but  what  banks? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Banks,  the  Oak  Park  Bank.  They  said  "No.  You 
have  a  first  mortgage  and- it  is  against  the  law  for  us  to  give  you  money 
on  a  second  mortgage."     I  tried.  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  What  banker  did  you  see  there  at  the  Oak  Park 
Bank  ?    Who  did  you  see  to  try  to  get  a  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Mr.  Spring. 

The  Chairman.  At  the  Oak  Park  National  Bank? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Had  you  ever  been  in  business  with  Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 


230  ORGANIZED    CRIME)   EST   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  know  whether  he  is  in  the  money-lending 
business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  much  interest  did  he  ask  on  the  second  mortgage  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose  the  same  thing,  4  or  5  percent,  whatever 
it  is ;  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Don't  you  know  how  much  interest  it  is  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.     I  dicUi't  pay  any  attention  to  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  paid  no  attention  to  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  mean,  I  don't  remember.  It  is  something  like 
that.  I  have  to  pay  anyway,  so  when  the  time  comes  to  pay,  I  will 
pay  it.  I  was  tickled  to  get  the  loan,  and  whatever  the  interest  was, 
I  pay  it.     Those  are  small  details  that  I  don't  pay  attention  to, 

Mr.  Halley.  You  made  no  arrangements  as  to  how  much  interest? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  yes ;  there  is  interest  there ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  is  it  to  be  paid,  at  the  end  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  At  the  end  of  5  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  don't  pay  anything  until  the  5  years  are  over? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  There  is  nothing  in  writing  about  that,  though? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Sure,  that  is  in  the  papers.  Mr.  Halley,  I  haven't 
seen  no  paper  or  anything.  All  I  done  I  gave  him  the  paper  and 
took  that  down  to  the  Oak  Park  Bank  and  I  got  the  money.  That 
is  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  think  your  trustee  signed  an  agreement? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  suppose ;  yes.     They  couldn't  do  it  any  other  way. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  it  is  for  5  years. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  is  the  trustee,  exactly  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  Oak  Park  Bank,  the  Oak  Park  National  Bank. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  show  you  exhibit  No.  4  which  you  produced  at  the 
first  hearing  and  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  on  May  6  there  is 
an  entry  that  you  got  a  loan  from  Hugo  Bennett  for  $10,000.  That  is 
1948. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  On  June  24,  1948.  vou  received  a  loan  from  Hugo 
Bennett  for  $30,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  how  you  got  that  loan  of  $30,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  By  check. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  are  sure  of  that  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  pretty  sure. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  did  not  get  it  by  cash  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  remember  whether  or  not  you  got  a  firet 
payment  of  $20,000  in  cash  from  Mr.  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  think  I  got  $10,000  and  then  $30,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  not  talking  about  the  May  6  check,  but  let's 
talk  about  the  $30,000  that  you  got  around  June  24. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Mr.  Robinson,  you  got  me  if  I  got  $20,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  whether  you  got  it  by  check  or  by 
cash? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  231 

Mr.  KoBiNSOx.  Mr.  DeLucia,  this  is  exhibit  No.  4,  which  is  the  tritil 
balance  in  your  ledger  account,  July  31,  1950,  in  which  there  is  re- 
corded a  loan  payable,  a  mortgage  on  the  Long  Beach  property  of 
$40,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Immediately  above  that  is  a  mortgage  payable  of 
$10,000.    Do  you  recall  what  that  $10,000  is  'I 

Mv.  DrXuciA.  That  is  a  mistake  or  else— that  is  a  mistake.  You 
can  ask  Bernstein.    I  don't  know  anything  about  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Why  do  you  sav  it  is  a  mistake? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Because  that  is  all  I  got.    I  got  $40,000,  and  I  got 

$40,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Your  point  is  that  that  this  $40,000  should  be 

$30,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  this  $10,000  is  the  first  loan  you  got  from 
Bennett  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  pretty  sure ;  yes. 

The  Chairman.  People  don't  make  $10,000  mistakes  just  by  acci- 
dent. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  ^Nlr.  Bernstein  kept  those  books,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  But  he  got  his  information  from  you. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes :  but  I  didn't  write  that  up,  you  see. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  second  $40,000  you  say  you  never  put  m  any 

Mr!  DeLucia.  No.  I  put  some  of  that  money  in  a  bank  later.  You 
know*  what  I  mean.    I  put  $5,000  in  the  bank,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  Francis  Curry  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Francis  Curry,  I  know  around  1930  I  suppose,  the 
late  thirties,  something  like  that. 

Mr  Robinson.  How-  did  you  happen  to  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  I  have  met  so  many  people.  I  know 
I  have  been  good  friends  with  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  it  in  connection  with  gambling? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  he  run  a  gambling  establishment  ( 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  bet  with  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir.  . 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  happen  to  meet  him  i  ,       ^  , 

Mr  DeLucia.  I  really  don't  remember,  Mr.  Robinson,  but  I  know 
I  have  been  good  friends  with  him.     I  know  we  have  talked  about 

farms  and  all  that.  ,.■,-.  £ 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  you  happen  to  hire  him  to  run  your  tarm 
while  you  were  in  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr  DeLucia.  Because  when  I  bought  the  farm  he  was  instrumental 
in  setting  me  the  farm.  I  told  him  there  was  a  farm  there  and  he 
said  he  knew  the  fellow  or  something.  He  got  a  lawyer  by  the  name 
of  Kusick  to  deal  with  the  Prudential  people  and  that  is  how  I  bought 

the  farm.  ,     ,  ^  ^  ,     , 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  check  as  to  whether  or  not  Curry  had  an;y 

ability  to  run  a  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  When  I  went  away  ? 
Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 


232  ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLtjcia.  Yes ;  he  liad  a  farm  liimself. 

Mr,  Robinson.  What  was  the  arrangement  with  Curry  with  respect 
to  running  your  farm? 

Ml-.  DeLucia.  He  was  supposed  to  pay  me  $7  an  acre  or  something 
like  tliat  for  a  time  I  was  away. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Curry  lost  any  money 
operating  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.     I  know  I  got  paid. 

INIr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  he  made  any  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  I  suppose.  I  don't  know.  What  the 
hell.  In  those  days  they  all  made  money  on  farms,  didn't  they.  I 
don't  know  if  he  made  money  or  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  asking  if  you  know  whether  or  not  he  made 
money. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  don't.     I  never  asked  him  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  discussed  that  at  all  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  never  said  anything  to  me. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  make  any  loans  from  Curry  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  DeLucia,  you  stated,  I  believe,  one  of  the  reasons 
why  you  wanted  to  be  paroled  was  the  fact  that  your  farm  operation 
was  at  a  standstill  and  it  was  necessary  for  you  to  get  back. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  Curry  operating  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Curry  wasn't  doing  any  improvement.  Curry  was 
taking  out  of  the  ground,  that  is  all.  If  he  invested  some  money,  he 
didn't  know  if  I  was  going  to  come  out,  if  I  was  going  to  die  in  jail 
or  anything  like  that.     How  was  he  going  to  do  anything  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  he  making  imjjrovements  to  the  farm? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  he  buying  machinery,  equipment? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  For  his  own  good,  to  get  the  farm  going  he  needed 
machinery. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  subsequently  sell  that  to  you  ? 

JNIr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  point  I  don't  get  is  why  you  were  worried  about 
the  farm. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  wanted  to  improve  the  fann,  Mr.  Robinson. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  worried  about  losing  the  farm?" 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  wasn't  worried  about  losing  the  fann  because 
I  knew  that  the  mortgage  was  five  or  six  thousand  dollars  a  year,  and 
the  money  I  got  out  of  the  rent  he  would  pay  it.  That  was  enough 
to  pay  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  say  you  borrowed  money  from  Curry? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No;  I  never  borrowed  money  from  Curry. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  borrowed  anything  from  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  you  owe  him  after  the  deal  was  over? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What  deal  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  After  the  arrangements  for  the  operation  of  the 
farm.    He  was  operating  the  farm  while  you  were  in  prison. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.  Oh,  there  is  a  dispute  there.  He  is 
looking  for  about  thirty  or  thirty-five  thousand  dollars.  We  think 
we  owe  him  about  twenty  thousand.     So  we  let  the  thing  lay.     We 


O'RGAMZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  233 

didivt  see  each  other  any  more.  He  didn't  need  the  money  any  more 
I  suppose,  and  we  didn't  bother,  and  when  the  time  come  we  lett 
that  open.'  We  didn't  settle  tliat.  .  ^  i.      n 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  buy  tractors  and  farm  equipment  tor  the 
farm  after  you  got  out '. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Sure. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  whether  or  not  you  bought  any  i^orcl 
tractors  or  Ford  trucks  for  the  farm  % 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  got  Ford  truck,  yes.  ,11, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  from  whom  you  bought  them '. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who?  ^  ^     ^ 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  Ford  Truck  I  bought  from  Babe  Baran. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Baran? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Many  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  first  meet  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  A^Tien  did  I  tirst  meet  him? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes.  ,       ^  ,  .  i  ^  -         -.a 

jNIr.  DeLucia.  I  have  known  Babe,  I  would  say  around  lo  or  20 

:Mr'.  Robinson.  What  business  was  he  in  when  you  first  met  him  ? 

Mr' DeLucia.  I  don't  remember,  Mr.  Robinson. 

:Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  laiow  whether  or  not  he  was  m  any  gambling 
business  at  the  time  you  met  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No ;  not  to  my  knowledge. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  were  your  dealings  with  him  at  that  time  { 

^h-  DeLucia.  You  met  the  boy  at  some  place.  You  met  him  any- 
place, some  cabaret  or  something  like  that.  Then  he  went  into  the 
Army  He  became  a  major  or  colonel.  Then  he  came  out.  I  w\as  m 
the  penitentiary,  I  think,  when  I  read  that  he  had  the  Ford  agency. 
So  I  went  to  see  him  and  I  got  a  Ford  from  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  made  any  other  purchases  from  him  { 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  don't  know  whether  or  not  he  was  ever 
m  any  gambling  enterprise  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No.  .       .  ,  •        •       q 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  Mr.  Bennett's  father  visit  with  you  m  prison  { 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  ever  write  to  you? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir.    The  man  is  90  years  old  now,  Mr.  Robinson. 

He  is  very  old.  .       ,     tit    -r^  t      •     ^i    4. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  believe  you  testified  previously,  Mr.  DeLucia,  that 

you  know  Ben  Fillichio. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  testify  as  to  what  business  he  was  in  { 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Ben  Fillichio  to  my  knowledge  has  a  chain  of  liquor 
stores  He  is  my  next-door  neighbor,  and  there  is  no  other  connection 
except  the  good-neighbor  policy.  Outside  of  that  there  is  nothing 
connecting  me  with  him  at  all  or  anything  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  his  brother,  Anthony  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  a  James  Nuzzo? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.  sir. 

68958 — 51 — pt.  5 16 


234  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  lie  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  is  in  the  fruit  business. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Any  other  business  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia,  No,  sir ;  not  that  I  know  of. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  about  James  Narro  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who? 

Mr.  Robinson.  James  Narro. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who  is  Narro  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  asking  you  if  you  know  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Narro? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  don't  Iniow  him. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Louis  Briatta  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  what  business  he  is  in  ?  Did  you  say 
you  know  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  know  of  him,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  Mr.  Robinson,  who  is  James  Narro? 
Will  you  please  explain  that  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  am  just  asking  you.    You  say  you  don't  know  him. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.    The  last  name  I  don't  recall  at  all. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  believe  you  also  testified  that  you  knew  John 
Rosselli. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  John  Rosselli,  I  know  him  for  about  20  years ;  better 
than  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  know  what  business  he  was  in  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  what  business  he  was  in  since  that 
time? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Since  that  time,  no. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  nothing  about  his  business  whatsoever? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  discussed  it  with  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  frequently  would  you  see  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  saw  Johnnie  a  few  times.  He  used  to  come 
around  the  restaurant  there.  He  went  to  California  and  I  haven't 
seen  him  for  quite  some  time.  I  haven't  seen  Johnnie  now  since  he 
left  Atlanta.    The  first  time  I  saw  him  was  today — I  mean  yesterday. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  DeLucia,  how  many  times  did  you  see  Mr.  Ben- 
nett between  the  time  you  made  the  first  loan  and  the  time  you  made 
the  second  loan? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  saw  him  four  or  five  times. 

Mr.  RoB'iNSON.  Four  or  five  times. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Four  or  five  or  six  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  two  years  ? 

INIr.  DeLucia.  Well,  maybe  a  little  more.     I  don't  remember. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  testified  you  knew  Tony  Accardo. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Charles  Fischetti. 


ORGAN^IZED    CRIME    IX    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  235 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  Jake  Guzik. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  RoBiNSOx.  Why  is  it  you  made  no  attempt  to  make  a  loan  from 
them  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  go  to  jail  tonight.  They  would  send  me  back  to  the 
penitentiary. 

Mr.  RoBiNSOx.  Do  you  know  William  Johnston? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Who  is  William  Johnston?    Which  Johnston? 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  The  race-track  owner. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  EoBixsox.  You  don't  know  him  and  never  have  met  him  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  EoBixsox.  Do  you  know  John  Patton  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Patton,  yes. 

The  Chairmax.  Did  you  say  Yes,  you  knew  him? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Johnnie  Patton,  yes. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  You  have  known  him  for  a  number  of  years  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Wliy  is  it  you  didn't  ask  him  for  the  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  For  the  same  reason.  You  have  to  consider  my  posi- 
tion.    I  can't  go  no  place,  can't  do  nothing. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Was  Mr.  Bennett  the  only  one  that  you  knew 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  was  the  first  one  I  run  across.  If  it  wasn't  him, 
I  would  have  to  get  somebody  else,  Mr.  Robinson.  If  he  turned  me 
down  I  would  get  somebody  else. 

Mr.  RoBixsox.  Did  Mr.  Bennett  ever  say  to  you  during  the  course 
of  the  negotiations  for  the  loan  that  he  didn't  know  whether  he  could 
get  it  himself  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  said  he  would  see.  He  said  he  would  see.  "I  am 
pretty  sure  I  can  do  it." 

The  Chairmax.  Anything  else  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Getting  back  to  your  personal  finances,  you  say  that 
when  you  came  out  of  prison  you  had  $300,000  in  cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  addition  to  that,  you  borrowed  $80,000  in  all. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  borrowed  $90,000,  $91,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  From  Hugo  Bennett  only  $80,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  $11,000  from  the  bank. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  mortgage  on  your  property  you  had  gotten  pre- 
vious to  your  going  into  prison  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  ^Vhat? 

Mr.  Halley.  Wlien  did  you  first  get  the  mortgage? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  What  mortgage  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  The  first  mortgage  on  your  property. 

Mc.  DeLucia.  Wliat  property  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  On  the  Long  Beach  property. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  have  no  first  mortgage  there.  I  paid  that 
mortgage.  I  didn't  have  no  mortgage.  You  see,  I  bought  that  prop- 
erty for  $14,000  in  1934;  $14,000  or  $15,000,  and  I  was  paying  so  much 
every  year  with  Metropolitan.     So  the  mortgage  was  paid. 


236  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IJSI    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  You  testified  just  a  little  while  as^o  that  the  reason 
you  went  to  Bennett  for  the  mortgage  on  the  Long  Beach  property  was 
that  you  couldn't  get  a  second  mortgage  from  the  bank. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  on  this  one  here. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  which  one  ? 

Ml-.  DeLucia.  On  the  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Why  did  you  go  to  Bennett  in  1948  on  the  Long  Beach 
property  ? 

Mr.  DeLvtcia.  Oh,  that  was  easy  to  get,  but  no  bank  would  give  me 
anything.     Nobody  wants  to  deal  with  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  gave  you  the  $11,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  bank. 

Mr.  Halley.  Why  do  you  say  no  bank  wants  to  give  you  money? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  had  to  give  them  bonds,  money,  dollar  for  dollar. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  Long  Beach  property  is  real  estate. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  try  it. 

Mv.  Halley.  That  is  good  collateral. 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  You  try  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  This  isn't  funny.  It  is  quite  serious.  You  testified 
a  little  while  ago  that  the  reason  you  went  to  Bennett  was  that  you 
couldn't  get  a  second  mortgage  on  the  Long  Beach  property. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  didn't  say  that.     If  I  said  so,  I  was  mistaken. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  also  said  so  in  Washington  when  I  questioned 
you,  and  that  was  your  reason  for  going  to  Bennett. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  sorry,  Mr.  Halley,  I  was  mistaken. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  was  wrong? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  correct  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  This  is  correct. 

I\Ir.  Halley.  What? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  The  second  mortgage  was  on  the  farm,  but  on  the 
Long  Beach  property  there  was  no  mortgage,  and  I  think  I  told  you 
that. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  borrowed  $11,000  from  the  bank,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Those  two  loans,  according  to  your  books,  were  made 
in  1048,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  get  out  of  prison? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  1947. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  got  out  of  prison  you  had  $300,000  in 
cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  By  1948  you  had  to  borrow  $41,000— $51,000? 
•    Mr.  DeLucia.  Well,  I  told  you  what  I  did. 

Mr.  Halley.  Had  you  spen"t  your  $300,000? 

]\Ir,  DeLucia.  No,  no ;  I  didn't  spend  it.  I  know  to  borrow  money 
for  me  it  is  hard  to  get,  Mr.  Halley,  and  I  want  you  to  believe  me. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  you  were  borrowing  it  far  in  advance  of  your 
need  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Why,  certainly. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  237 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr,  DeLucia,  do  you  expect  anybody  to  believe  that 
story?  If  we  sent  this  record  to  the  parole  officer,  would  you  expect 
him  to  read  it  and  believe  you  are  telling  this  committee  the  truth? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  the  parole  officer  I  borrowed  the  money. 

Mr.  Halley.  Maybe  he  didn't  cross-examine  you  about  what  you 
had.     Why  did  you  borrow  $51,000  in  1948  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you,  Mr.  Halley.  ' 

Mr.  Halley.  You  had  $300,000  in  cash,  is  that  right,  and  you  bor- 
rowed $51,000  more  to  have  more  cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  If  I  could  borrow  more  I  would  borrow  more. 

Mr.  PIalley.  You  would  boirow  more ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Surely. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  by  May  of  this  year — according  to  the  books, 
that  is  when  you  made  the  loan — you  w^ere  broke  or  almost  broke. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  wasn't  broke. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  say  altogether  now  you  have  only  about  $-±0,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  There  is  no  mistake  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  $40,000  is  the  same  amount  you  just  borrowed 
in  May  ?  All  you  could  have  had  in  May  is  what  you  spent  between 
May  and  now,  if  you  have  $40,000  left  now. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  had  some  money  left,  I  told  you.  I  had  some 
money  left,  and  when  I  got  the  $40,000  I  mixed  it  with  what  I  had 
left. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  right,  but  now  you  have  $40,000  you  say. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  maybe  a  little  less  or  a  little  more. 

Mr.  Halley.  Whatever  you  had  left  then  is  what  you  spent  between 
May  and  October. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  didn't  get  you  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  arithmetic.  Look.  You  had  a  little  money  left, 
ri^ht,  in  May  when  you  made  the  loan  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  borrowed  $40,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right,  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now  you  have  altogether  $40,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  something  like  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  whatever  you  spent  between  May  and  October  must 
be  what  you  had  left. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No ;  you  see  what  happened — let  me  explain  this.  I 
had  something  to  pay  on  the  farm,  around  $6,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  payable  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Whatever  it  is.  You  have  got  it.  Just  a  moment. 
So  I  paid  it  out  of  the  $40,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  you  paid  it  in  cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Just  a  minute. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  pay  that  $6,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Cash.    I  put  it  in  the  bank. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  put  it  in  the  bank  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  put  it  in  my  check,  whatever  it  was.  Then  I  had 
corn  secured  by  a  Government  loan — No.  That  is  right.  Oh,  no. 
Then  I  sold  my  wheat.  I  got  $9,000 — nine-thousand-three-hunclred- 
something.    What  I  did  was  to  put  the  $6,000  cash  back  in  pocket  and 


238  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

put  $3,000  on  the  book.  Yon  see  how  I  work.  Yon  see  how  I  put  some 
cash  money  in  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  don't  see  why  you  need  cash  at  alL 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  don't  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  I  frankly  don't. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  what  to  answer  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  Explain  this :  You  liave  $40,000  left  noAV,  more  or  less? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let's  say  not  less  than  $35,000  and  not  more  than 
$45,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  quite  sure ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Not  more  than  $45,000  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  quite  sure ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  All  right,  not  more  than  $45,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Does  "no"  mean  you  agree  with  me  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes,  I  agree  with  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  Between  $35,000  and  $40,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  came  out  of  prison  in  1947. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  This  is  the  middle  of  1950. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Three  years. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  spent  $351,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  To  improve  my  place,  yes. 

Mr.  Hali^y.  You  put  $351,000  into  your  place? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Your  testimony  didn't  show  that. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  on  my  place;  for  living,  too,  and  all  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  3  years  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  My  living  expense,  too. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  think  you  testified  that  vou  put  something  over 
$100,000  into  the  place. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know,  whatever  it  was.  It  amounts  to  that 
anyway.     I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let's  say  you  put  $200,000  into  the  place. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let's  assume  that. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  And  the  rest  for  living. 

Mr.  Halley.  $50,000  a  year? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  i\.  year,  Mr.  Halley.     ISIaybe  more  or  less  than  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  didn't  have  to  pay  any  income  tax  on  that  $350,- 
000.     It  wasn't  income  obviously. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  didn't  make  anything. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  if  you  spent  the  $150,000  in  3  j^ears  for  living 
expenses,  you  actually  spent  $50,000  a  year. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $150,000  living  expenses;  no,  no. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  you  spend  it  for,  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Roughly  you  figure  I  would  say  about  $50,000  or 
$60,000  for  my  living  expenses,  and  the  rest  went  into  the  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  But  the  books  show  w^hat  went  into  the  farm. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Whatever  is  there  is  there. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  239 

Mr.  Haixet.  You  testified  last  time  that  it  was  something  over 
$100,000, 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  whatever  it  was. 

Mr.  Halley.  Of  course,  if  that  is  all  you  spent  for  living  expenses, 
there  is  $351,000  that  has  to  be  accounted  for  somewhere.  If  you 
spent  say  $130,000 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  spent  more  than  that  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  you  spend? 

Mr.  Halley.  Oh,  I  don't  know^  You  have  the  books.  What  have 
you  got  the  books  for,  Mr.  Halley.     How  can  I  remember  those  things  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  You  got  the  books  for  the  parole  officer. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  For  myself,  too. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  w^hat  they  told  you  when  you  were  in  prison,  to 
keep  your  money  in  casli  and  keep  your  accounts  in  your  head. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Cash  all  the  time.     That  is  the  best. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  your  books  in  the  head  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  You  want  me  to  tell  you  the  truth,  so  I  am  telling 

you. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now,  tell  me  what  you  did  with  all  the  cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  There  you  are. 

Mr.  Halley.  No  ;  there  I  ain't. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  spent  the  money  for  living. 

Mr.  Halkey.  $130,000.    Where 'is  the  other  $230,000  in  3  years? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  $230,000  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Take  a  piece  of  paper  and  a  pencil  and  do  your  own 
arithmetic.  1  will  write  it  for  you.  It  is  very  simple  arithmetic. 
$300,000  you  had  in  the  box  in  cash. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  $80,000  you  got  from  Bennett. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  $11,000  you  got  from  the  bank. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  $391,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  $120,000  you  spent  on  the  farm;  $271,000  you  spent 
some  other  place. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  spent  more  than  that  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  All  right,  you  have  $40,000  left. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  I  spent  more  than  that  on  the  farm. 

Mr.  Halley.  So  let's  say  you  have  $45,000  left. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  spent  more  than  that  on  the  farm. 

The  Chairmax.  $130,000  is  what  the  books  show,  as  I  remember. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  spent  more  than  that. 

The  Chairman.  You  have  to  account  for  $271,000  less  $45,000. 
That  means  $225,000. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  spent  more  than  that  on  the  farm,  Mr.  Halley. 

The  Chairman.  What  did  you  spend  on  the  farm  then?     Tell  us. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  Senator.  I  was  figuring  as  long  as  it 
was  on  the  books  out  there,  I  didn't  have  to  explain  anything. 

The  Chairman.  The  books  show  only  $125,000  or  $130,000  you 
spent  somewhere  along  there,  don't  they,  Mr.  Robinson  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Wliat  are  vour  living  expenses?  You  say  about 
$60,000  for  the  3  years. 


240  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  It  might  be  something  like  $70,000 
or  $80,000  for  the  3  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  All  right.  Is  it  your  testimony  here  under  oath  that 
everything  in  excess  of  $80,000  went  into  the  farm  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Oh,  I  don't  know  that.     I  w^ouldn't  say  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  better  say  something.  You  have  to  give  us  your 
best  answer. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know.  You  have  the  books  there.  Call  my 
bookkeeper.. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  the  money  go? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all,  the  farm  and  the  house. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  see  there  is  one  disadvantage  about  all  these  cash 
deals  that  you  like,  and  that  is  the  books  don't  explain  everything. 
Cash  is  something  that  is  in  your  pocket.  You  testified  under  oath 
that  you  had  over  this  period  of  3  years  in  your  pocket  in  cash  money 
$391,000,  and  this  committee  wants  to  find  out  where  that  money  went. 
You  said  about  $80,000  went  for  living  expenses. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  About  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  did  the  rest  go  ?     Let's  say  $90,000 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  be  a  lot  to  spend.  That  is  about  $600  a  week, 
just  to  live.  On  the  farm  you  grow-  your  own  food,  you  have  no  rent, 
you  own  your  own  car.  I  don't  know  what  you  spent  $600  a  week  for 
as  a  respectable  farmer. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  what  to  tell  you,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Halley.  Please  tell  me. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Please,  I  don't  know  what  to  tell  you.  I  tried  to 
give  the  best  explanation  I  could. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  is  a  very  unsatisfactory  answer. 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  am  sorry,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  no  explanation  for  what  became  of  the 
$391,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Outside  of  what  I  have  given  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  No  other  explanation  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  do  not  now  want  to  take  the  opportunity  which 
I  am  now  offering  you  to  explain  what  happened  to  $391,000? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  It  is  all  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  all  where  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  In  the  books  and  all. 

Mr.  Halley,  You  stand  on  whatever  the  books  show? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  The  books  show  whatever  my  expense  was, 

Mr.  Halley.  And  whatever  your  testimony  is  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  no  further  explanation? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

INIr.  Halley.  Now.  Mr.  Ricca,  when  you  arranged  for  your  parole 
who  was  your  lawyer? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  didn't  have  no  lawyer. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  handled  it  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  found  out  that  Mr.  Dillon  was  the  man  on  the 
parole  board.  All  I  know  is  that  when  you  go  in  the  penitentiary  the 
warden  calls  you  in.  They  have  a  board,  they  have  an  examining 
board,  they  have  so  many.    You  go  through  for  30  days  a  lot  of  riga- 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    I^^   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  241 

marole  there.  Tlie  warden  tells  you,  "I  don't  care  who  you  are  or  what 
you  have  done  or  whatever  race,  you  are  only  number  so  and  so.  1 
didn't  put  you  in  here.  All  I  want  you  to  do  is  not  to  cause  me 
trouble,  if  you  don't  cause  me  trouble  and  keep  your  nose  clean" — 
that  is  what  they  tell  you— "at  the  time  for  parole  I  will  put  a  good 
word  in  for  you'with  the  parole.  I  will  recommend  you  for  parole." 
That  I  did,  and  when  I  got  out  I  think  I  earned  that,  because  I  was 
Paul  DeLucia,  I  can  get  the  right  like  anybody  else  did,  can't  I? 
Mr.  Hallet.  Why  did  you  have  to  hire  Mr.  Dillon  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  did  not.  After  I  come  out  I  find  out  that  Mr. 
Dillon  was  instrumental  and  went  to  see  the  parole  board  and  all 
that. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  see  him  before  you  got  out  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  Who  acted  for  you  in  getting  Mr.  Dillon? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  understand  Mr.  Campugna  was  instrumental  to 
see  Mr.  Dillon  in  behalf  of  all  of  us. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  did  you  pay  Mr.  Dillon  ? 
Mr.  DeLucia.  I  paid  $5,000. 

The  Chairman.  Who  else  did  you  pay  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman.  You  didn't  pay  any  other  lawyer,  no  accountant, 
nobody  else  at  all  for  your  parole  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  How  did  you  pay  Mr.  Dillon,  by  check  or  cash? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No  ;  I  sent  the  money  to  Louis  Campagna. 

The  Chairman.  You  gave  $5,000  in  cash  to  Louis  Campagna  ? 

:Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes.    He  sent  a  cashier's  check.    It  all  came  out  in 
the  congressional  hearing. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else? 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  Maury  Hughes  for  a  lawyer  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Hallet.  What  did  he  have  to  do  with  your  parole  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  He  didn't  have  anything  to  do  as  far  as  I  am  con- 
cerned. . 

Mr.  Halley.  What  did  he  have  to  do  with  having  the  indictment 
dismissed  in  New  York? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  paid  Maury  Hughes  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  don't  know. 

The  CHAIR3IAN.  Did  you  pay  him  anything? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  meet  Dillon  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  I  saw  him  over  at  the  hearing. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  see  him  anywhere  else  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  meet  Maury  Hughes? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  saw  Maury  Hughes? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

]Mr.  Halley.  You  never  saw  him  in  your  whole  life? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  No  other  questions. 


242  ORGANIZED    CRIME.   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  DeLiicia,  did  you  ever  do  any  favors  for  Mr. 
Bennett? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  None  at  all  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  you  were  visited  by  Mr.  Bernstein  and  Ac- 
cardo  in  prison,  did  you  carry  on  a  conversation  in  Italian  with  Mr. 
Accardo  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  no. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  the  entire  conversation  between  the  three  of 
you  in  Eno;lish  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Tliere  was  a  guard  there  at  all  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  did  not  speak  in  Italian  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  No,  Mr.  Robinson. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wliat  was  the  purpose  of  Mr.  Accardo's  coming 
there  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  told  you,  I  wanted  to  talk  to  Bernstein  about  it,  and 
that  is  how  Joe  came  over  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  Mr.  Accardo  present  all  the  time  during  the 
conversation  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes ;  he  was  there  while  "we  were  talking. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  talk  to  Mr,  Campagna  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes, 

Mr.  Robinson.  During  the  time  that  he  was  visiting  there? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  That  is  right.    They  were  both  together. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  found  out  who  put  up  that  money  to  pay 
your  income  tax  liability  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Not  yet,  Senator. 

The  Chairman,  Are  you  making  inquiry  about  it  since  we  saw  you? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  I  haven't  made  any  inquiry,  I  figured  they  would 
come  over  and  tell  me  themselves. 

The  Chairman,  Have  you  found  out  yet  who  killed  Captain  Drury  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Where  were  you  that  night? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  I  was  home. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  Captain  Drury  ? 

Mv.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Any  other  questions? 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  you  knew  Fillichio,  and  he  is  a  neighbor 
of  yours? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  know  him  quite  well  ? 

Mr.  DeLucia.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  is  in  the  liquor  business  ? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  Yes, 

Mr,  Robinson,  Why  didn't  you  ask  him  for  the  loan  ? 

Mr,  DeLuci-a,  Why  should  I  ask  him  ? 

Mr,  Robinson,  I  am  asking  you.  He  is  a  good  friend  of  yours. 
Why  didn't  you  ask  him? 

Mr,  DeLucia,  I  figured  he  might  need  money  himself.  He  has  so 
many  stores,  or  something  like  that. 

The  Chairman,  All  right.  Anything  else?  All  right,  Mr,  De- 
Lucia, if  we  want  you  again  we  will  get  in  touch  with  you. 

Mr,  DeLucia,  Yes.  Senator. 


ORGAI^IZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  243 

rURTHEH  TESTIMONY  OF  JOHN  S.   BOYLE,  STATE'S  ATTORNEY, 

COOK  COUNTY.  ILL. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  would  like  to  state  for  the  record  that  Mr.  Kerner 
informed  me— Mr.  Boyle  was  modest  about  it— that  it  was  Mr.  Boyle 
who  gave  him  the  information  which  he  conveyed  to  us  about  the 
whereabouts  of  Matt  Capone  who  was  discovered  in  San  Diego  under 
the  name  of  Hunter.  Mr.  Boyle's  office  got  that  information  and 
promptly  conveyed  it  through  Mr.  Kerner  to  us. 

The  Chairman.  We  appreciate  that  very  much,  Mr.  Boyle. 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  are  entirely  welcome,  sir. 

Yon  asked  me  to  bring  in  any  records  I  had  on  this  matter,  and 
I  have  them  here. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  committee  will  take  them,  Mr.  Boyle. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Very  well.  , 

(The  records  were  identified  as  exhibit  No.  28,  and  were  returned  to 
witness  after  analysis  by  the  committee. ) 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  any  information  you  want  to  ask  about 
the  records  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  We  will  take  a  quick  look. 

Mr.  Boyle.  There  isn't  much  in  there,  I  will  be  frank  with  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  have  just  one  question,  Mr.  Boyle.  Did  you  work 
up  the  printed  material  on  this  form  contract  or  is  that  something 
they  had  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Thev  had  that ;  yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  here  Trans-American  Publishnig  News 
Service,  application  for  special  contract  services,  a  printed  form.  Is 
that  something  thev  had  when  thev  came  to  you  or  that  you  worked  up? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Thfit  is  what  they  had.  Another  thing  I  did  in  this 
case,  I  wrote  a  brief  for  them  on  the  legality  of  the  wire  service,  but 
I  don't  know  where  that  brief  is.  I  will  have  to  dig  it  up.  I  noticed 
that  in  one  of  my  letters  where  they  took  out  some  phones.     I  wrote 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  ever  get  a  list  of  the  complete  shareholdei^s  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  l\lid  not.     They  didn't  give  me  any  such  thing. 

The  Chairman.  The  only  person  you  did  business  with  m  this 
thing  was  Mr.  Burns  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No.  I  said  yesterday  Mr.  O'Hara  also  came  into  my 
office.  As  I  recall  now  after  looking  at  the  files,  he  came  in  several  times. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Burns  was  the  president,  and  who  was  Mr. 
O'Hara? 

Mr.  Boy-le.  He  was  an  officer.  As  I  recall  it  to  check,  follow  up  on 
this  corporation  form  there.     It  has  all  the  information. 

The  Chairman.  i\Ir.  O'Hara  was  the  secretary. 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  was  the  secretary  and  Mr.  Burns  was  the  president. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Pat  Burns  was  the  president  first  and  then  Andrew 
succeeded  him — the  son  succeeded  him. 

The  Chair^ian.  You  did  do  an  extensive  brief  on  the  legality  of  the 
wire  service? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes ;  I  did.  I  notice  in  one  of  my  letters  I  said  I  would 
send  a  copy.     I  will  have  to  check  and  find  the  brief. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  all  right.     Who  is  O'Keefe  and  O'Brien? 

Mr.  Boyle.  They  evidently  represented  them  before. 


244  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  I  see  also  you  have  sent  us  tlie  statement  of  William 
Brantman  and  Thomas  Connelly. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yesterday  I  told  you  I  had  a  statement  of  Kutner  and 
I  checked  my  office  yesterday  afternoon.  I  did  not  take  a  written 
statement  from  Kutner.  Ed  Greene  and  I  sat  in  and  talked  to  him, 
but  I  did  take  a  written  statement  from  Connelly  and  from  Brantman. 
I  could  check  that  corporation  service  there  and  find  out  all  the  other 
information  you  might  need  if  you  want  me  to  have  that  tile  back.  I 
can  follow  it  up  for  you. 

The  Chairman.  The  only  thing  I  see  in  here  of  any  importance  is 
the  application  for  special  contract  service. 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  can  find  out  who  those  people  are  by  checking  that. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  how  many  people  they  did  service  f or 
at  that  time? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No.  As  I  recall  it  now — I  was  a  little  hazy  yesterday 
because  I  was  sort  of  hit  w^ith  this  unexpectedly  and  I  didn't  have  my 
file  with  me — but  I  don't  know  more  than  one  or  two  groups  of  persons 
who  came  in ;  and  if  they  did,  I  have  a  copy  of  it  there.  I  don't  think 
they  had  many  customers.  That  is  probably  why  they  went  out  of 
business.  I  brought  the  complete  file.  That  is  some  sort  of  personal 
matter  of  one  of  these  fellows — whether  it  was  O'Hara  or  whether  it 
was  Burns,  I  don't  know — about  some  petition  they  wanted  in  the  sani- 
tary district,  about  some  nuisance.  It  applied  to  them  personally, 
but  I  took  the  file  as  it  was  and  took  nothing  out  of  it.  I  didn't  want 
even  to  remove  that.     It  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  service  at  all. 

The  Chairman.  He  is  trying  to  abate  a  nuisance  apparently. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Adjoining  his  home. 

The  Chairman.  A  pig  farm. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Were  you  still  representing  Trans-American  wliea 
it  ceased  to  do  business  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  I  was  no  longer  representing  them  about  2 
weeks  before  they  ceased  to  do  business.  I  did  not  close  up  the  col'- 
poration.     I  had  nothing  to  do  with  that. 

The  Chairman.  I  mean,  how  did  you  happen  to  stop  representing 
them  at  the  time  you  did  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  As  I  recall  it,  they  called  me  up  and  said  they  were 
going  broke  and  they  were  going  to  fold  up.  The  next  thing  I  saw 
something  in  the  newspaper  where  they  had  dissolved  the  corpora- 
tion and  that  w^as  the  end  of  it. 

The  Chairman.  But  j^ou  didn't  dissolve  the  corporation  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No  ;  I  did  not. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Halley,  I  think  that  contract  is  the  only  thing 
I  see  of  any  importance. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Frankly,  as  I  look  back  on  it  now  I  realize  they  didn't 
give  me  much  information  as  to  the  workings  of  the  corporation  and 
who  the  officers  were.     They  didn't  give  you  the  books  and  records. 

Mr.  Halley.  They  gave  you  a  quick  deal. 

Mr.  Boyle.  What  do  you  mean  by  quick  deal  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  They  sort  of  shuffled  the  cards  \evy  fast  so  you  couldn't 
get  the  facts. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Clients  frequently  do  that.  They  come  in  and  gloss 
over  the  facts,  and  unless  there  is  some  reason  for  suspicion  you  just 
don't  get  the  facts  from  them.     It  is  quite  prevalent. 


OEGAA'IZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  245 

The  Chairman.  You  never  did  keep  their  corporate  books  or 
records  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  No.     They  had  an  auditor. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  notice  a  letter  here,  Mr.  Boyle,  which  you  sent  to 
the  Corporation  Trust  Co.,  April  11,  1947,  asking  that  since  you  repre- 
sented the  company  they  send  to  you  all  communications  regarding 
the  corporation. 

Mr.  Boyle.  You  see  they  were  registered  evidently  as  registered 
agents  in  Delaware,  which  is  where  they  operated,  and  then  when  they 
got  a  notice  I  told  tliem  to  send  it  to  me,  notice  of  time  being  due  to 
file  papers.  But  that  corporation  organization  can  give  you  more 
information  I  imagine  because  they  must  have  received  all  the  neces- 
sary information. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else  i 

Mr.  Halley.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Boyle,  what  was  the  name  of  that  chief  of 
police  that  you  prosecuted  out  at  Calumet  City? 

INlr.  Boyle.  I  tliink  it  is  Wolinski,  or  some  sort  of  name  like  that. 
I  can  get  it  for  you. 

The  Chairman.  We  have  it  in  the  record. 

Mr.  B0YT.E.  I  don't  think  I  gave  you  the  correct  name  yesterday. 
I  gave  you  the  name  of  the  chief  of  police  of  Cicero. 

The  Chairman.  What  approximately  is  the  man's  name  at  Calumet 

Citv  ( 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  it  is  Wolinski.     I  could  get  it  on  the  telephone. 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  the  one  that  was  tried  and  the  jury  let 
him  off( 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  He  is  their  chief  of  police  out  there  now  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  understand  he  is.     I  think  he  is.     I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Some  fellows  told  some  of  our  staff  that  a  place 
was  operating  wide  open  out  there  and  they  went  out  and  saw  for 
themselves  last  night  and  found  that  it  was.  We  are  not  trying  to 
raid  or  close  up  local  places.     It  was  just  as  a  matter  of  information. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Where  was  it  ? 

The  Chairman.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Boyle.  What  they  call  the  strip  ? 

Mr.  Halley'.  The  Show  Bar. 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  have  closed  a  lot  of  those  places  and  have  been 
active  out  there.  In  fact,  we  had  the  mayor  before  our  grand  jury 
also.  The  grand  jury  didn't  indict  the  mayor.  He  was  very  stub- 
born. He  stood  up  there  and  said  that  he  needed  the  money  froni 
these  saloons  at  $400  a  year  that  they  paid,  he  needed  that  money  in 
order  to  operate  the  town,  to  pay  the  fire  and  police  departments,  to  pay 
their  salaries.     I  don't  know  why  they  didn't  indict  him. 

Mr.  Halley'.  I  am  curious:  Were  you  going  before  the  grand  jury 
on  charges  of  gambling  or  just  general  violations  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Malfeasance  in  office.  That  is  what  we  indicted  them 
for.  for  not  suppressing  gambling. 

Mr.  Halley-.  Was  it  gambling  or  simply  stripping? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Gambling  and  strip-tease  places  and  dice  games  and 
everything  else — an  accumulation  of  evidence,  you  see. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  were  able  to  get  evidence  of  dice  games  running 
wide  open  at  that  time? 


246  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes;  from  our  investigators,  and  they  testified. 

Mr.  Halley.  There  seems  to  be  no  trouble  picking  up  that  evidence 
out  there. 

The  Chairman.  What  does  the  sheriff  do  about  it  out  tliere?  Does 
he  ever  close  up  any  of  those  places? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Not  tliat  I  know  of. 

The  Chairman.  Is  it  his  duty  to  do  that? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes;  it  is  his  duty  to  close  them  up. 

The  Chairman.  This  is  true  whether  they  are  inside  the  city  limits 
or  not  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  It  doesn't  make  any  difference.  He  has  adopted  the 
attitude  that  in  an  incorporated  village  he  doesn't  have  jurisdiction, 
but  he  is  the  main  enforcing  officer  of  our  county,  the  main  law- 
enforcement  officer.  When  I  told  you  j^esterday  about  having  76 
police  officers  in  my  office,  I  think  you  may  have  gotten  an  erroneous- 
idea  of  what  those  police  officers  do.  They  work  on  criminal  cases 
that  are  pending  in  the  criminal  court  after  indictments  are  returned. 
They  go  out  and  get  evidence.  They  bring  in  witnesses  and  serve 
subpenas.  They  are  very  busy  out  there.  I  don't  want  you  to  get 
the  impression  that  76  men  have  nothing  to  do  but  run  out  into  the 
county. 

Mr.  White.  Do  you  find  anv  evidence  of  prostitution  in  Calumet 
City? 

Mr.  Boyle.  It  was  a  general  picture  of  prostitution.  We  even  had 
evidence  in  the  Calumet  City  case  of  crookedness.  We  figured  the 
jury  might  not  wan.t  to  convict  the  man  on  gambling,  but  if  we 
proved  crookedness  they  might  get  mad  enough  to  indict  him.  Tli^y 
were  calibrated  dice.  Even  despite  that  thev  didn't  indict  him. 
We  had  two  of  our  top  prosecutors  on  the  case.  The  only  defense 
they  offered  was  character  witnesses,  a  bunch  of  character  witnesses 
anci  the  defendant's  own  testimony.  I  could  get  you  a  transcript  of 
that  if  you  want  it  which  shows  the  whole  picture  out  there.  If  it  is 
enough  I  will  give  3'ou  the  transcript  on  the  Calumet  City  case. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  all  riglit.  We  just  need  the  general  out- 
line.    You  charged  this  chief  of  ]:)olice  with  malfeasance  in  office. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Nonfeasance  under  our  statute.  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman.  What  was  the  mayor  charged  with  before  the 
grand  jury. 

Mr.  Boyle.  He  was  just  brought  in  and  questioned.  He  was  sub- 
penaed  before  the  grand  jury  but  the  grand  jury  didn't  indict  him. 
The  grand  jury  has  the  power  of  indicting  or  not  indicting.  He 
admitted  there  was  gambling  out  there  and  he  admitted  there  were 
shows,  and  he  admitted  all  these  things. 

The  Chairman.  But  he  said  he  needed  the  revenue  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.  He  was  cold  about  it,  brought  in  the  books  of 
the  city  and  said,  "This  is  my  condition  here.  I  need  the  $400  a 
year  from  these  taverns.    Unless  I  get  it  the  tax  rates  will  treble."^ 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  discouraging,  I  should  think,  to  try  to  enforce 
the  law  under  such  conditions. 

The  Chairman,  What  is  the  mayor's  name? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Kominski.  Understand  the  geographical  set-up  there. 
That  is  one  street,  the  end  street.  On  the  east  side  of  of  the  street 
is  Hammond,  Ind.,  on  the  west  side  is  Calumet  City.  111.     I  under- 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  247 

stand  that  most  of  their  trade  comes  from  tliese  industrial  towns  like 
Hammond,  Indian  Harbor,  and  places  like  that. 

The  Chairmax.  How  large  a  force  does  the  sheriff  have,  do  you 
know  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  It  is  over  100,  and  they  are  police  officers  in  uniform. 
They  have  cars  and  they  patrol  the  county.  The  other  day  we  had 
to  make  an  arrest  up  at  a  place  called  Ralph's  Place,  a  notorious 
place  up  north.  I  took  their  liquor  license  away  from  them  through 
the  count}'  board  and  also  the  State  rescinded  their  liquor  license. 
Then  the  crime  commission  told  us  that  they  were  still  selling 
liquor  there.  We  went  up  and  made  an  arrest  and  that  case  is  com- 
ing up  next  week,  arrest  for  selling  liquor  without  a  liquor  license. 
Of  course  we  understand  there  is  a  gambling  place  in  the  back, 
but  our  fellows  can't  get  in,  and  the  crime  commission  men  can't 
get  in,  and  the  shferiff  says  he  can't  get  in. 

Mr.  White.  What  is  the  address  i 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  can  give  it  to  you.     It  is  Ralph's  Place. 

Mr,  Devereux.  Waukegan  Road  and  Northfield  township. 

The  Chairman.  We  don't  want  you  pushing  any  doors  in. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  would  like  to  have  him  try  some  of  these  places 
in  this  county.  They  really  have  tightened  up  and  toughened  up  so 
it  is  difficult  for  any  stranger  to  get  in.  They  are  very  careful.  The 
Lumber  Gardens,  we  put  them  out  of  business.  That  was  a  notorious 
])lace  in  Melrose  Park. 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  be  willing  to  elaborate  on  whether  the 
sheriff  has  been  doing  his  duty  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Why  don't  you  ask  him  how  many  slot  machines 
he  destroyed  since  we  went  out  to  get  them,  since  November  1949. 
I  don't  know  of  any. 

The  Chairman.  He  said  he  had  gotten 

Mr.  Halley.  Fourteen  prior  to  that. 

Mr.  Boyle.  Why  did  he  quit  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  just  quit? 

Mr.  Boyle.  It  looks  that  way.  I  don't  know  of  any  machines 
he  picked  up. 

The  Chairman.  When  did  you  start? 

Mr.  Boyle.  November  1,  19-19.  He  got  500 — whatever  the  num- 
ber was  I  told  you  yesterday — 560-some  machines. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  any  evidence  whatsoever  that  his  depu- 
ties are  being  corrupted  in  any  way  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  There  was  a  lieutenant  by  the  name  of  Gleason  up 
on  the  North  Side,  I  don't  think  he  is  with  them  any  longer,  but 
he  raised  the  devil  with  my  fellows  for  coming  out  there  and  bothering 
those  gambling  places  and  slot  machines.  We  had  quite  an  argument 
about  it  when  he  was  in  the  witness  chair. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  his  name? 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  think  his  name  is  Lieutenant  Gleason  After  all,  let's 
be  practical  about  this  thing.  If  you  want  to  stop  gambling  in  the 
country  towns  or  any  other  place,  all  you  have  to  do  is  put  a  police- 
man at  the  front  door  and  that  will  stop  them  from  coming  or  going 
and  they  will  be  out  of  business  in  a  week. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  know  the  practical  situation  here.  He  says  his 
force  is  129  men,  I  think,  mainly  for  road  patrol,  and  that  they  don't 
have  time  for  investigative  work. 


24S  ORGANIZED    CRIME;   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  the  same  argument  the  chief  of  police  of  Cahi 
met  City  gives,  that  he  needs  his  })olice  officers  for  school  crossings. 
They  all  need  them  for  something  except  the  suppression  of  gambling. 
They  all  need  them  for  something  else. 

Mr.  Halley.  For  your  information,  we  subpenaed  an  officer  who 
was  sitting  in  the  room  about  as  far  from  the  gambling  table  as  you 
are  from  me. 

Mr.  Boyle.  We  have  evidence  that  the  sheriff's  police  have  been 
parked  in  front  of  gambling  places. 

]Mr.  Halley.  This  wasn't  the  sheriff's  men. 

Mr.  Boyle.  I  am  talking  about  the  sheriff's  men.  We  have  evidence 
that  they  have  parked  in  front  of  places  and  we  called  that  to  his  at- 
tention, giving  him  the  license  number  of  the  car,  and  the  number  of 
the  car,  ])arked  in  front  of  gambling  places.  In  fact  we  had  one  in- 
stance where  the  sheriff's  men  were  directing  the  persons  into  the 
gambling  place. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  Boyle,  do  you  think  the  police  officials  in  the 
city  of  Chicago  have  been  as  efficient  in  that  respect  as  the  sheriff 
may  be  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  That  is  a  difficult  (luestion  to  answer.  As  I  told  you, 
I  do  not  go  into  the  city  of  Chicago  because  I  have  enough  to  do  in 
the  country  towns  and  I  have  faith  in  Mayov  Kennelly  nnd  I  am  sure 
you  have  too.  He  has  suppressed  a  great  deal  of  gambling.  There 
are  no  open  rooms  that  I  know  of.  By  that  I  mean  sheets  and  loud- 
speakers and  all  that  sort  of  thing.  I  think  a  lot  of  your  gambling 
is  by  telephone.  I  understand  that  it  is  one  of  those  hit-and-run 
ideas  where  yon  walk  in  and  make  a  bet  or  two  and  then  you  walk 
out.  You  don't  hang  around  tliere.  There  used  to  be  big  rooms.  You 
know,  as  background,  there  was  a  fellow  here  by  the  name  of  Skid- 
more  some  years  ago,  and  this  is  common  knowledge,  and  each  gam- 
bling place  would  pay  him  so  nuich  a  month  to  operate.  This  was 
before  Mayor  Kennelly  came  in.  He  was  sentenced  to  the  peniten- 
tiary on  an  income-tax  violation.  Kerner  took  care  of  him.  But 
tliat  doesn't  exist  today.  The  ward  committeemen  have  been  stripped 
of  their  power  today,  believe  me.  I  don't  know  whether  that  ex- 
plains it  to  you  the  way — frankly,  he  has  been  cursed  and  damned  by 
politicians  around  here,  the  old-line  politicians,  because  they  feel  he 
has  taken  their  power  away  from  them.  They  can't  transfer  police 
captains,  which  is  right,  of  course. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mentioned  one  instance  in  wliich  the  sheriff's 
deputies  were  found  to  be  directing  patrons  to  a  gambling  house. 

Mr.  Boy^le.  I  can  get  that  information  for  yon.  I  gave  him  that 
information.  I  w^rote  him  a  letter  to  that  effect  and  told  him  the 
license  number  of  the  car  and  everything  else. 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  get  that  letter  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Yes.  I  had  it  here  yesterday  but  I  didn't  think  to  turn 
it  over  to  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  reply  did  you  get  from  the  sheriff  specifically 
on  the  one  ? 

Mr.  Boyle.  Here  I  am  being  vague  again.  I  don't  like  to  be  that 
way.  I  would  like  to  get  all  my  records  and  bring  them  in  here  and 
show  you  what  we  have  done. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  am  sorry  to  take  so  much  of  your  time  bringing  you 
back  and  forth. 


O'RGAOTZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  249 

Mr  Boyle.  There  is  nothing  more  important  than  this. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  very  helpful     Thank  you. 

Mr  Boyle.  Of  course,  as  the  mayor  said  yesterday,  it  you  didn  t 
have  people  who  would  bet,  you  wouldn't  have  any  bookies,  ihey 
would  starve  to  death.     You  have  to  bring  the  morals  of  the  people 

"^ThJ  Chairman.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Boyle.     If  you  would 
get  us  that  detailed  information. 
Mr.  Boyle.  I  will  get  it  all  for  you. 
The  Chairman.  Thank  you.  . 

Now  Mrs.  Fischetti,  will  you  hold  up  your  right  hand,  btand  up, 
please  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give  this  com- 
mittee will  be  the  whole  truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you 
God? 

TESTIMONY  OF  MRS.  ANNE  FISCHETTI,  MIAMI  BEACH,  FLA.; 
ACCOMPANIED  BY  CHARLES  E.  FORD,  ATTORNEY,  WASHING- 
TON, D.  C. 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do.  •    •  •  i  9 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Ford,  what  are  you  mitials  ^    ,  ^  ^  ^. ,  ,    ^^      , 
Mr.  Ford.  Charles  E.  Ford,  Columbian  Building,  416  b  itth  street 
NW.,  Washington,  D.  C.  ^^^    ^  .  ^    „ 

The  Chairman.  416  Fifth  Street  NW.,  Washington,  D.  C. 
All  right,  Mr.  Robinson. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  state  your  name,  please. 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  Mrs.  Anne  Fischetti. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Where  do  you  reside? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  At  6475  Allison  Road  m  Miami  Beach,  J^  la. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  your  permanent  residence? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  your  legal  residence  i 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  Let's  all  talk  a  little  louder  so  we  can  hear. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  other  residence  address? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  not.  •     m  • 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  home  or  place  ot  residence  m  L.I11- 

cago? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  your  husband's  name?     1  ou  are  married i 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  your  husband's  name « 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Charles.  .    .    tit       t^-    i    4.^-  9 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  been  married,  Mrs.  b  ischetti  i 

Mrs.  FiscHETTL  December  of  1931. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  been  living  m  b  lorida  i 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Since  1939. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  last  see  your  husband? 

Mrs  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answ^er  that  because  of  my  marital 
status  as  the  wife  of  Charles  Fischetti  and  because  the  answer  may 
tend  to  incriminate  me. 

The  Chairman.  What  was  the  question  ? 

(The  pending  question  and  the  answer  were  read  by  the  reporter.) 

68958 — 51— pt.  5 17 


250  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN  INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Tlie  Chairman.  When  did  you  last  see  your  husband,  Charles  Fis- 
chetti  ?     The  chairman  will  restate  the  question :  When  did  you  last 
see  your  husband,  Charles  Fischetti  ? 
What  is  your  answer,  Mrs.  Fischetti  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  because  of  my  marital  status 
as  the  wife  of  Charles  Fischetti  and  because  the  answer  may  tend  to 
incriminate  me. 

The  Chairman.  You  are  here  represented  by  Mr.  Ford? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairman.  First,  the  chairman  directs  you  to  answer  the  ques- 
tion. The  chairman  states  to  you  that  on  the  basis  shown  you  have 
no  right  not  to  answer  the  question.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  the 
question  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  believe  I  have  the  right. 

The  Chairman.  I  mean  do  you  refuse  to  answer  notwithstanding 
the  fact  that  the  chairman  orders  you  to  answer? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  because  I  believe  I  have  the  right  and  the 
privilege. 

The  Chairman.  Now,  Mr.  Ford,  at  this  point  we  ask  you  on  what 
ground  or  m  wliat  connection  you  feel  that  this  Avould  incriminate 
Mrs.  Fischetti. 

Mr.  Ford.  I  believe  the  answer  may  tend,  first,  on  the  ground  of 
privilege,  which  I  believe  is  established  both  in  the  District  of  Co- 
lumbia, m  this  State,  by  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States,  in 
cases  both  civil  and  criminal.     I  have  a  couple  of  citations  if  you 
wish  me  to  cite  them,  in  my  pocket.     One  was  a  probate  case  in  the 
Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States.     It  was  the  taking  of  a  deposi- 
tion.    It  wasn't  a  suit  against  anyone.     That  is,  it  was  neither  a  suit 
against  a  husband  or  wife.     They  were  not  parties  to  the  litigation. 
The  Chairman.  That  is,  giving  any  information  even  about  when 
you  last  saw  your  spouse,  your  husband  ? 
Mr.  Ford.  That  is  right. 
The  Chairman.  Is  that  true  ? 
Mr.  Ford.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  some  contention  about  what  Federal 
offense  this  answer  would  incriminate  Mrs.  Fischetti  ? 

Mr^FoRD.  Many.  First,  the  general  conspiracy  statute  of  our  Fed- 
eral Crovernment.  Secondly,  the  fact  that  it  may  lead  to  raising  the 
question  of  whether  or  not  a  person  has  committed  a  State  offeiSe  as 
soon  as  they  cut  across  the  State  line.  Of  course  they  may  become 
guilty  of  a  Federal  offense  by  the  mere  leaving  of  the  jurisdiction. 
There  are  many,  yes,  sir.  Those  two  I  can  recall  offhand. 
Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  ask  a  question. 
The  Chairman.  We  are  going  to  have  to  continue  this  over  until 
after  lunch.  Unfortunately,  I  have  an  engagement  to  speak  to  the 
Executives  Club,  so  I  think  that  during  the  recess  you  and  the  staff  and 
Mr.  Ford  might  look  at  any  citations  that  he  has. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  would  like  a  written  list  of  tlie  citations  at  this  time. 

,The   Chaikman.  We   will   recess  until   1:45,   at  which  time  wte 

will  resume,  and  we  will  continue  with  your  testimony,  Mrs.  Fischetti. 

In  the  meantime,  you  will  show  Mr.  Halley  and  ^Ir.  Robinson  your 

brief.    We  will  excuse  you  now,  Mrs.  Fischetti. 

Mr.  Ford.  Until  what  time? 


O'RGAN'IZEO    CRIME    VN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  251 

The  Chairman.  Until  15  minutes  of  2 ;  1 :  45. 

Mr.  Ford.  May  she  sit  here  until  I  get  through  so  I  can  accompany 

her  away  from  here?  .     •      .i     i     i      a/t 

The   Chairman.  Yes,    indeed.    You   may    sit   m   the  back,    Mrs. 

Fischetti.  .  ,       ^■^  ^    ak 

(Whereupon,  at  11 :  35  a.  m.  the  committee  recessed  until  1 :  15  p.  m. 

the  same  day.) 

AFTERNOON    SESSION 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mrs.  Fischetti,  will  you  come  up,  please  i 

FURTHEE  TESTIMONY  OF  MES.  ANNE  FISCHETTI,  MIAMI  BEACH, 
FLA.;  ACCOMPANIED  BY  CHARLES  E.  FORD,  ATTORNEY,  WASH- 
INGTON, D.  C. 

The  Chairman.  The  committee  will  now  come  to  order. 
Will  you  read  the  last  proceedings,  Mr.  Eeporter  ? 
Mrs.  Fischetti  and  Mr.  Ford,  counsel  for  the  committee  will  ask  other 
questions,  and  the  chairman  will  rule  out  any  question  that  he  does  not 

think  is  proper.  ,-.--,  i        ^       .  n 

Let  the  record  show  that  any  question  that  I  do  not  rule  out  or  tell 
the  witness  not  to  answer,  she  is  ordered  to  answer. 

It  is  understood  that  you  are  ordered  to  answer  any  question  that  I 
do  not  withdraw  from  the  witness  myself. 

Mr.  Ford.  I  think  she  understands  that. 

The  Chairman.  You  understand? 

Mr.  Ford.  Yes,  I  understand. 

The  Chairman.  Very  well,  Mr.  Eobinson  and  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mrs.  Fischetti,  do  you  have  any  children  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  not.  .  . 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  your  liusband  maintain  an  apartment  m  Chi- 
cago ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that,  because  of  my  marital 
status  as  the  wife  of  Charles  Fischetti,  and  my  knowledge  that  I  may 
have  is  confidential,  and  I  may  tend  to  incriminate  myself. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mrs.  Fischetti,  do  you  make  frequent  trips  between 
Florida  and  Chicago? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  was  the  last  time  you  were  in  Chicago? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  In  the  spring  of  1945. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  not  been  in  Chicago  since  that  time  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  have  not.  .       ^. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  your  husband  maintain  an  apartment  m  Chi- 
cago ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  You  asked  me  that,  Mr.  Robinson. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  did  not  answer  that  question. 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  May  the  record  clearly  show,  Mrs.  Fischetti,  you  un- 
derstand that  the  chairman  orders  you  to  answer  that  question? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes,  I  understand. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Ford,  you  understand  that  that  couldn't  possibly 
be  a  confidential  matter. 


252  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   IXITERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Ford.  No,  I  don't  understand  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  mere  question  as  to  whether  Mr.  Fischetti  main- 
tains an  apartinent  in  Chicago,  you  would  say  is  a  confidential  matter? 

Mr.b  ORD.  That  is  correct,  between  her  and  him,  yes.     Of  course,  she 
bases  it  on  two  grounds,  as  you  recall. 

The  Chairman.  Yes.     She  stated  the  grounds.     There  is  no  use 
arguing  with  Mr.  Ford  back  and  forth.     Let  us  make  our  record 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  May  I  say  something  to  Mr.  Ford,  please  ? 

The  Chairman.  Speak  to  him  if  you  wish. 

(Witness  and  Mr.  Ford  conferring.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  brothers  does  your  husband  have,  Mrs 
Fischetti  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Two.     I  am  sorry,  three. 
Mr.  Robinson.  What  are  their  names? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  Rocco,  Jose])h,  and  Nicholas. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Where  does  Rocco  live  ? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  believe  he  lives  here  in  Chicago. 
Mr.  Robinson.  At  what  address  ? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  think  3100  North  Sheridan. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  a  home  or  an  apartment  house  ? 
Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  whether  Rocco  lives  in  a  residen- 
tial home  or  in  an  apartment  house  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  think  I  have  heard  it  is  an  apartment  house 

JNIr.  Robinson.  Who  told  you  that  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  previously 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  other  brother's  name  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Joseph. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  does  he  live  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHEiTi.  He  stays  part  of  the  time  at  my  home  in  Florida, 
ihe  rest  of  the  time,  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  Rocco  stay  at  your  home  at  times,  in  Florida « 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  He  does  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  he  ever  visited  there  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  frequently  does  he  visit  there  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHEiTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Does  Joseph  visit  there?  You  say  he  stays  there 
at  times  with  you  ?  ^  j 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  Rocco  in  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  previously 

The  Chairman.  We  will  let  the  record  show  again  that  the  chair- 
man orders  you  to  answer,  but  you  refuse  to  answer,  is  that  correct? 
Wait  ]ust  a  minute.  This  question,  and  any  others  that  are  put  to 
the  witness,  which  I  allow  to  be  put  to  the  witness,  she  is  ordered 
to  answer  That  is  understood,  is  it  not?  You  understand  that,  Mrs. 
i^  ischetti  ?  ' 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes.    May  I  say  something  to  Mr.  Ford  ? 
ihe  Chapman.  You  may  consult  with  your  attorney  whenever 
you  wish.  "^ 


ORGA^TIZEO    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  253 

(Witness  and  counsel  conferring.) 

Mrs.  FisCHETTi.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  You  do  not  know  what? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  What  business  Rocco  is  in. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wliat  business  is  Joseph  in? 

ISIrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  don't  know. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  the  home  in  Florida  in  your  name  ? 

Mrs.  FISCHETTI.  Yes,  it  is.  .  i      u      i^  9 

Mr.  Robinson.  Solely  in  your  name,  not  m  your  husband  s  name  i 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  No,  my  name. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  owned  it? 

]Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  Eleven  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  pay  for  it? 

(Witness  and  counsel  conferring.)  ^  .       , 

Mrs.  FISCHETTI.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  previously 

stated. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  employ  any  help  at  that  home  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETiT.  I  do. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  do  you  employ? 

Mrs    FiscHETTi.  Well,  I  employ  a  cook  part  of  the  year,  and  i 
employ  a— [witness  and  counsel  conferring]— part-time  laundress. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  do  you  pay  them?  , 

Jklrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  previously 

stated 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  does  it  cost  you,  approximately,  a  year  to 

run  your  household  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  you  employed  ? 

:Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  am  not.  ,  .      ,  ,  .  ^       -,  k  9 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  been  employed  m  the  past  10  or  15  years « 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  have  not. 

INIr.  Robinson.  You  have  no  source  of  income  that  you  earn  Dy 
reason  of  your  own  ability  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that.  •    t-i     -j    9 

Mr  Robinson.  Whom  do  you  entertain  at  your  home  in  if  lorida  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETiT.  I  refuse  to  answer  that,  on  the  grounds  previously 

stated, 

Mr.RoBiNsoN.  Do  you  know  Anthony  Accardo? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Virginia  Hill? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  do  not.  , 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  never  met  her  at  any  time  i 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  Never. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  make  frequent  telephone  calls  from  youi 

home  to  Chicago  ? 

:Mrs.  FiscHETii.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  own  a  yacht  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that.  . 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  spend  any  time  on  a  yacht  m  l^loriclaJ 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that.  1  •    171     •  i    > 

Mr  Robinson.  Have  you  ever  been  on  any  sailing  vessel  m  1^  londa « 

^Irs.  FISCHETTI.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  on  the  grounds  previously 

stated. 


254  ORGANIZED    CRIME   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  do  you  pay  by  way  of  toll  calls,  approximately, 
a  year  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  make  any  expenditures  for  the  operation 
of  any  yacht  or  sailing  vessel  or  motorboat  in  Florida  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  deline  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  Louis  Campagna  or  Mrs.  Campagna  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that,  on  the  grounds  previously 
stated. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  your  husband  fre- 
quently goes  under  a  different  name  than  Fischetti  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  I  did  not  understand. 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  decline  to  answer  that.  Senator,  on  the  grounds 
previously  stated. 

The  Chairman.  We  will  understand  that  all  your  refusals  to  answer 
are  on  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  own  any  personal  property,  Mrs.  Fischetti  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  did  you  last  see  Mr.  Accardo  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  get  on. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all  I  have. 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Halley,  do  you  have  any  questions? 

Mr.  Halley.  No  questions. 

The  Chairman.  I  have  just  one  or  two,  Mrs.  Fischetti.  Are  you 
in  any  business  with  your  husband?  That  is,  do  you  have  any  part 
ownership  of  a  business  with  your  husband  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that.  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  What  businesses  does  your  husband  have? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  any  questions  concerning  my 
husband,  because  I  am  his  wife,  and  anything  I  may  know  is  con- 
fidential. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  understand  that  the  committee  has  advised  you 
that  that  is  not  the  law  ? 

Tlie  Chairman.  That  is  all  right.    They  understand. 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  Yes,  but  I  believe ' 

The  Chairman.  That  is  all  right.  We  have  an  understanding  about 
that. 

Was  the  money  for  the  purchase  of  the  home  given  to  you  by  Mr. 
Fischetti,  or  did  he  purchase  it  for  you  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETT'i.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  where  Rocco  Fischetti  is? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  not. 

The  Chairman.  Where  Joseph  Fischetti  is  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHE'TTi.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Where  Nicholas  Fischetti  is  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti."  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Is  your  husband  in  partnership  with  any  of  his 
brothers  in  any  business  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  where  the  Vernon  Country  Club  is  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  do  not. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  255 

The  Chairman.  The  Vernon  Club? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  do  not.  ,      ,       -,  -  ,.       t. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  if  your  husband  owns  any  interest 

in  the  Vernon  Club  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  don't. 

The  Chairman.  You  say  you  do  not  know  i 

Mrs.  FISCHETTI.  Well,  1  refuse  to  answer  any  questions  concerning 
mv  husband,  Senator. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  that  question,  whether 
you  know  whether  he  owns  any  part  of  the  Vernon  Club  ? 

Mrs.  FISCHETTI.  Yes.  ,r     -r.      l  ^^  9 

The  Chairman.  Where  did  you  first  know  ]Mr.  Ford,  your  attorney? 

Mrs.  FISCHETTI.  He  is  an  old  family  friend  of  many  years  stand- 
ing, of  mv  family.  ,  ,  .      ^  v  i 

The  Chairman.  Did  your  husband  contact  him  for  you,  or  did  you 

contact  him  ? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  did. 

The  Chairman.  He  practices  law  in  Washington? 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  Yes.  •     ^,  •         o 

The  Chairman.  Who  is  your  husband  s  attorney  here  m  Chicago  i 

Mrs.  FiscHETTi.  I  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Who  is  your  husband's  attorney  m  Miami  i 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  don't  believe  he  has  any. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  whether  he  has  one  or  not  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  No,  I  don't.  -,  .    ,      ,  ^  q 

The  Chairman.  Where  does  your  husband  keep  his  bank  account  i 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  you  keep  your  bank  account? 

Mrs.  FiscHET-ri.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  a  bank  account  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  Has  your  husband  ever  been  arrested  ? 

Mrs.  Fischetti.  I  refuse  to  answer  any  question  concerning  my  hus- 
band. ^        ^  , , .  , 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  whether  there  are  any  public  records 
as  to  whether  your  husband  has  ever  been  arrested  and  convicted  ? 

Mrs.  FisciiiKTTi.  I  refuse  to  answer  that. 

The  Chairman.  :Mrs.  Fischetti— I  think  I  might  say  this  to  you, 
too,  Mr.  Ford— the  committee  is  only  interested  in  trying  to  get  the 
facts  which  we  feel,  under  our  Senate  resolution,  we  are  entitled  to 
fret.  From  the  testimonv  here,  in  the  opinion  of  the  chairman,  and 
the  refusal  to  answer,  the  complete  unwillingness  on  the  part  of  the 
witness  to  give  us  information  that  we  feel  we  are  entitled  to  is  quite 
apparent.  What  will  be  done  in  this  matter  will  be  decided,  of  course, 
by  the  whole  committee.  It  may  be  there  will  be  other  matters  tomor- 
row that  we  will  want  to  ask  Mrs.  Fischetti  about ;  so  Mrs.  Fischetti 
will  remain  under  subpena  to  report  back  to  the  committee  on  to- 
morrow. ,  ,      ,     O  0 

Mr.  Ford.  Shall  we  report  back  here  at  10  o'clock.  Senator  i 

The  Chairman.  I  think  if  she  got  back  by  11  o'clock,  it  would  be 
all  right. 

Mr.  Ford.  We  shall  be  here. 

The  Chahiman.  All  right.  I  regi-et  the  attitude  you  have  taken. 
It  is  very  uncooperative,  and  we  will  just  have  to  see  whose  opinion  is 
correct. 


256  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   IKrTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Ford.  I  want  to  say  we  have  a  lot  of  respect  for  your  opinion, 
Senator. 

The  Chairman.  I  appreciate  that,  Mr.  Ford. 

Thank  you. 

(Witness  excused.) 

The  Chairman.  You  have  not  been  sworn,  have  you  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  INIr.  Ghertz,  do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony 
3^ou  will  give  this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  wdiole  truth,  and 
nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  ANTHONY  A.  GHERSCOVICH,  ADMINISTRATIVE 
ASSISTANT  AND  PRIVATE  INVESTIGATOR,  OFPICE  OF  STATE'S 
ATTORNEY  FOR  COOK  COUNTY,  ILL. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  get  at  the  point  of  this  right  quick. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  My  name  is  Anthony  A.  Ghertz.  I  am  also 
known  as  Anthony  A.  Gherscovich. 

Mr.  Halley.  Your  title  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  am  administrative  assistant,  and  also  Mr. 
Boyle's  private  investigator. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  Mr.  Boyle's  instructions,  have  you  appeared  here 
with  certain  records  of  the  State's  attorney's  office  relating  to  matters 
in  the  jurisdiction  of  the  sheriff  of  Cook  County? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  have. 

Mr.  Halley.  Will  you  state  what  records  you  have  brought  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  have  various  records  of  letters  that  Mr.  Boyle 
has  sent  to  the  sheriff  of  Cook  County,  and  letters  wdiich  he  has 
received. 

Mr.  Halley.  There  is  quite  a  batch  of  documents  there. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  have  a  resume  of  the  whole  thing,  if  you  want 
to  see  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  committee  had  reference  to  a  particular  letter 
which  Mr.  Boyle  wrote  to  the  sheriff  concerning  a  car  belonging  to  one 
of  the  deputy  sheriffs  seen  in  front  of  a  gambling  place.  Do  you  have 
that  letter? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Yes,  we  have.  We  wrote  a  number  of  letters  to 
the  sheriff.     That  was  on  June  29. 

The  Chairman.  June  29,  what  year? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  1949. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  an  answer  from  the  sheriff  on  that? 
Perhaps  we  can  save  time. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Here  it  is. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  personally  observe  a  car  of  a  deputy  sheriff 
about  which  this  letter  of  June  29  is  written  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  did.  On  the  date  of  that  letter,  I  visited  the 
place  at  Narragansett,  4416  Narragansett. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  June  28, 1949  ? 

Mr.  Ghersco\t[ch.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  there  a  handbook  operating  there  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  There  was  a  handbook  operating. 

The  Chairman.  Where  is  that?  Is  that  in  any  municipality  or 
out  in  the  country  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  257 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  It  is  Norwood  Park  Township,  an  unincorpo- 
rated  area.  n  nr    tj  n^,r 

car  parked,  the  license  ""'"'f !' ^f^ff  ^^.^'^.TikI  ^^^^^^^  Sued  to 
r^:;;!t^^reS;SBi:rshi"l3^rLiAdenStreet,Winnetka, 

"jlr.  Hallbt.  I  notice  yon  didn't  mention  that  in  the  letter  to  the 

'' mI'^Gherscovich.  No.    We  checked  that  after  we  wrote  the  letter. 

mI- Ks^covioH.-  The  other  depnty  was  Depnty  Walter  Little. 

^M^'haIe"  Toffer  in  evidence  the  entire  batch  of  letters  so  the 

committee  can  take  any  action  It  desires.  ,  .,  ..  ^     ,0   and  also 

The  Chairman.  That  will  be  received  as  exhibit  iNo.  IJ,  ana  aiso 

'' (SXcm^enJr^Wd  to  .ere  identified  as  exhibit  No  29,  and 
we  -e  retunied  to  the  witness  after  analysis  by  the  con.nn    ee.) 

Mr.  Halley.  For  present  purposes  will  J^^^  take  out  a  lettei  ot 
September  9,  1949,  relating  to  gambling  m  Calumet  Cuy,  and  the 
reply  of  September  13,  1919  ? 

^.  gS:rSrt{ro'f"se;te,nber  9,  and  the  reply  is  Septem- 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  September  9. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  we  have  the  entire  file  m  evidence 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  will  give  you  the  entire  sheriff  s  hie. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  entire  file  of  letters. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  All  right,  sir.  ,..i  fLof  will 

Mr.  Halley.  Just  put  them  back  m  the  envelope,  and  that  ^ill 

'llr' Gherscovich.  Here  is  a  letter  of  November  1.  October  25, 
194^1  iSnaly  went  into  Calumet  City  at  11:15  f  night  to  ob- 
serve crap  names,  and  I  went  into  the  Club  Riptide  and  Club  Eendez- 
vous  a'ld  sJnv  crap  i^ames  in  operation.  At  the  saine  time,  I  saw  the 
IheHff's  squad  car,  the  sheriff  of  Cook  County,  License  ^o.  M-515o 
paXh     While  I  was  in  town  I  investigated  these  places.     And  I 

"" iTll :  35^1  noticed  two  sheriff's  men  get  in  their  squad  car  and 

leave     Thev  came  from  State  Street.  .     ^j 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  no  authority  to  issue  a  warrant  and 

""  Mr  GHERscm-iCH.  I  was  alone.  We  don't  make  a  practice  of  going 
out  and  making  raids  alone.  After  we  make  an  investigation  e 
next  night  or  a'couple  of  nights  after  that  we  go  out  and  make  the 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  do  that? 

Mr  Gherscovich.  We  did.  We  made  numerous  raids.  The  last 
raid  at  Calumet  City  was  a  week  ago  Friday.  ,, 

Mr  HvLLEY.  Is  there  anything  else  you  particulaHy  want  to  call 
attention  to,  because  the  committee  is  trying  to  cover  a  lot  of  witnesses. 
We  can  study  the  file. 


258  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   EST   ITsTTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Ghekscovich.  If  yon  study  the  file,  it  will  ^ive  you  a  good 
i-esume  of  the  letters  that  we  sent  to  the  sheriff,  and  which  we  received 
from  the  sheriff. 

Back  in  March  of  1949  and  April  1949, 1  had  occasion  to  go  to  4817 
West  Sixty-fifth  Street,  in  Stickney  Townsliip,  and  there  I  met  sheriff's 
police  out  in  front  of  the  place,  and  saw  them,  and  they  stayed  there 
until  the  races  were  over,  and  watched  people  coming  out  of  the  tavern. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  they  have,  a  horse  book  in  the  tavern?  Did  you 
go  in  and  look? 

Mr.  Ghekscovich.  A  number  of  times  I  went  in  there.  I  couldn't 
go  when  the  sheriff's  men  were  in  there.  They  wouldn't  let  me  in. 
But  I  stood  there  and  watched  people  go  in. 

Another  time— there  is  a  letter  we  received  on  a  deputy  there.  I 
talked  to  him  about  the  people  running  a  book,  and  he  said  "No."  I 
went  into  the  tavern  and  saw  people  in  the  tavern,  and  we  made  a  sur- 
veillance of  the  place  for  about  half  an  hour  before,  and  counted  20 
people  going  m.  I  called  attention  to  it,  and  said  "20  people  went  in, 
and  there  are  only  8  people  in  the  tavern."  I  said,  "Wliere  did  they 
disappear  to?"  He  said,  "There  is  nothing  going  on  while  you  are 
here.  '  I  waited  until  after  the  races  were  over,  and  saw  the  people 
coming  out  m  droves,  about  60  people  by  count. 

Mr.  Halley.  Doesn't  your  office  have  authority  to  do  anvthinff 
about  that  ?  j  j        &> 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  You  see,  our  policemen  are  city  policemen. 
There  are  only  a  couple  of  men  who  are  coroners,  which  might  give 
them  authority.  In  the  unincorporated  areas,  it  is  the  sheriff's  duty 
to  go  m  there.  That  was  brought  out  in  the  trial  of  Chief  Wlekinski 
and  Chief  Wigglesworth. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  Calumet  City  an  incorporated  area? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Incorporated. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  it  the  sheriff's  duty  to  go  in  there,  too? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  No.  It  is  an  incorporated  area,  and  they  have 
their  own  police  department.  They  are  supposed  to  go  in  when  law 
enforcement  breaks  down. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  addition  to  the  letters,  do  you  have  any  other  rec- 
ords that  you  want  to  present  to  the  committee  ? 

Mr  Gherscovich.  I  believe  yesterday  you  asked  Mr.  Boyle  regard- 
ing the  chief  of  Calumet  City,  whose  name  was  Wlekinski. 

The  Chairman.  Before  you  get  to  the  chief  of  Calumet  City,  there 
IS  some  testimony  or  statement  that  your  office,  Mr.  Boyle's  office, 
started  raiding  and  confiscating  slot  machines  in  November,  1949,  and 
at  that  time  the  sheriff  quit  raiding  slot  machines.  Do  you  have  any 
correspondence  with  reference  to  that,  or  do  you  know  anything 
about  it  ?  -^  J        & 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Slot  machines  ? 

The  Chairman.  That  is,  gambling  devices. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  The  raids  that  we  made? 

The  Chairman.  Is  there  any  correspondence  about  why  Mr.  Boyle 
started  and  why  the  sheriff  stopped  raiding  them  at  that  time « 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  We  started  the  raids  on  slot  machines  because 
they  were  going  wide  open  in  the  county,  and  nothing  was  being  done 
We  were  notifying  the  sheriff  prior  to  that,  and  the  other  chiefs  of 
the  various  villages,  about  slot  machines  in  their  villao-es.     Nothing 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  259 

was  being  done,  so  we  went  in  and  took  it  upon  ourselves.    We  made 
the  investiofations  and  went  out  and  made  the  raids. 

The  Chairman.  All  right.     Go  ahead  with  Calumet  City. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  were  going  to  tell  about  the  chief  of  police  of 
Calumet  City.  Was  there  any  point  you  wanted  to  make,  except  the 
name  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  just  wanted  to  bring  his  name  out. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  his  name  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Henry  A.  Wlekinski. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  records  do  you  have  there  with  you  that  you 
want  to  })resent  to  the  committee  ?     We  have  the  letters. 

The  Chairman.  Is  he  still  the  chief  of  police  of  Calumet  City? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Yes,  he  is. 

The  Chairman.  Is  he  the  one  who  was  tried  for  nonfeasance  in 
office  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  is  right,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  any  correspondence  with  him? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Yes,  sir.  He  gave  a  statement  before  the  grand 
jury,  and  also  a  statement  to  Mr.  Boyle. 

The  Ciiair:man.  Let  us  see  the  statement  to  Mr.  Boyle. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  These  are  the  grand  jury  statements  [producing 
documents.] 

The  Chairman.  Let  these  be  made  exhibit  Xo.  30  without  being 
copied  in  the  record. 

(Exhibit  Xo.  30  is  on  file  with  the  committee.) 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Here  is  a  resume  of  all  of  our  activities  in  the 
past  year  as  to  raids. 

Mr.  Halley.  May  that  be  accepted  in  evidence  ? 

The  Chairman.  That  will  be  made  exhibit  No.  31  without  being 
copied  into  the  record. 

(Exhibit  No.  31  is  on  file  with  the  committee.) 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  shows  our  raids  and  what  we  have  been 
doing.    It  is  an  index  of  it.    We  have  the  reports  on  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  there  anything  else  you  would  like  to  ])resent  ?  You 
were  going  to  give  us  the  file  of  letters.     May  we  have  that? 

Mr.  Ghersovich.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  need  it  for  your  current  work  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  It  will  be  carefully  taken  care  of. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  will  leave  the  whole  file  with  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

I  know  you  have  taken  a  lot  of  trouble  and  brought  a  lot  of  records 
in  here.  If  you  will  tell  us  what  they  are,  perhaps  the  committee 
would  want  to  know  about  them. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  have  a  Melrose  Park  file,  on  the  Lumber  Gar- 
dens, which  was  operated  by  Kocco  De  Grazia.  We  tried  the  chief  of 
Melrose  Park  for  nonfeasance. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  you  let  the  committee  have  that  file  for  a  short 
while  ? 

The  Chairman.  Who  is  the  chief  of  Melrose  Park? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Kobert  Wigglesworth. 

The  Chairman.  What  happened  to  the  trial? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  He  was  found  not  guilty  by  jury. 


260  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Will  you  relate  very  briefly  what  this  transaction 
grew  out  of  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  We  were  making  numerous  investigations  as  to 
gambling  in  Melrose  Park,  and  this  Lumber  Gardens. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  name  of  the  Gardens  ? 

Mr.  Cherscovich.  Lumber  Gardens,  and  the  Casa  Madrid. 

The  Chairman.  Who  owned  it  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Kocco  De  Grazia. 

The  Chairman.  Rocco  De  Grazia.    What  is  his  other  alias  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  don't  think  he  has  any.  This  is  a  picture  of 
the  Lumber  Gardens. 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  a  picture  of  Lumber  Gardens  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  is  Lumber  Gardens.  The  big  building  is 
the  Casa  Madrid,  and  the  other  is  Lumber  Gardens. 

The  Chairman.  Did  Mr.  Boyle's  group  raid  Lumber  Gardens  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  No,  sir.  We  investigated  the  sheriff  about 
Lumber  Gardens,  and  also  Chief  Wigglesworth.  We  wrote  numerous 
letters  to  them  in  reference  to  the  Lumber  Gardens. 

The  Chairman.  Nothing  was  done  about  it,  so  the  chief  of  police 
was  indicted  for  nonfeasance  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Failure  to  act. 

The  Chairman.  And  tried  before  a  jury,  and  released? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Found  not  guilty. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  testify  in  his  own  behalf  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Yes ;  I  jjelieve  he  did. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  he  admit  or  deny  that  the  place  was  operating  as 
a  gambling  place? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  His  excuse  was  that  he  never  had  a  sufficient 
number  of  men,  that  he  was  sick  and  ailing,  and  he  couldn't  take  the 
job  over  personally,  and  he  was  short  of  men,  the  same  as  at  Calumet 
City ;  Wlekinski  said  he  was  short  of  men. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 

The  Chairman.  What  else  do  you  have  there  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  will  leave  the  Melrose  Park  file  and  the  Calu- 
met City  file.    There  are  pictures  here  of  the  Calumet  City  places,  too. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  see  the  pictures  of  the  Calumet  City  places. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  was  in  on  the  investigation  of  Calument  City 
last  September.  I  was  making  investigations  of  Calument  City  my- 
self. I  would  go  out  to  the  town.  When  I  hit  the  town  I  always  man- 
aged to  get  two  spots  where  a  crap  game  was  in  progress  but  I  was 
known,  and  by  the  time  I  got  to  the  others  they  had  shut  down. 

About  the  county,  now,  everybody  knows  me,  but  I  still  go  out  and 
make  the  raids. 

These  files  are  self-explanatory  as  to  the  reports  and  as  to  the  letters 
we  have  written  and  the  court  files. 

Mr.  Halley.  Fine. 

The  Chairman.  We  appreciate  very  much,  Mr.  Ghertz,  your  com- 
ing in. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  The  other  records  that  we  have  here  are  to  the 
various  other  chiefs  of  police  of  Blue  Island,  whom  Mr.  Boyle  called 
in,  and  Phoenix.    Would  you  want  those  records  ? 

The  Chairman,  Tell  us  about  what  the  transactions  were. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  We  made  investigations  in  almost  all  of  the  towns 
in  the  county  and  all  the  unincorporated  areas.     Where  we  found 


O'RGANTZEO    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  261 

gambling  to  exist,  Mr.  Bo_yle  then  called  in  the  various  chiefs  of  police 
of  the  respective  communities  and  told  them  to  have  all  gambling  cease. 

The  Chairman.  Describe  the  towns  you  have  over  there  in  the  file, 
without  getting  the  files  out,  if  you  can. 

Let  the  record  show  the  witness 

Mr.  Gherscovicii.  The  record  would  show  on  this  resume  sheet. 

The  Chairman.  Let  the  record  show  the  witness  has  brought  m 
voluminous  files  showing  correspondence  and  transactions  with  the 
police  departments  of  the  various  towns  in  Cook  County  outside  of 
Chicago ;  is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  is  right,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Halley  or  Mr.  Robinson? 

Mr.  Halley.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  sir,  we  Avill  get  these  back  to  you. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  have  two  indictment  sheets  that  come  out  of 
our  file.     Would  you  want  that? 

The  Chairman.  I  do  not  think  so. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  On  Wigglesworth  and  Wlekinski. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  what  they  were  charged  with  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  is  right,  sir. 

The  Chairivian.  Leave  those  with  these  statements  which  were  filed. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  We  still  continue  our  job  on  raiding  the  slot 
machines. 

The  Chairman.  You  keep  on  going  after  them?  You  are  doing 
all  right,  we  hope. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Besides  that,  we  also  make  vice  raids  and  check 
on  minors,  which  it  isn't  our  clut}^  to  do.  It  is  up  to  the  sheriffs  and 
other  police  chiefs  to  do,  and  we  have  to  go  out  to  check  taverns  for 
minors.     It  requires  a  lot  of  work,  and  we  are  short  of  men,  too. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  the  course  of  these  raids  on  gambling  places,  do 
you  find  who  the  owner  is  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  The  owners  are  seldom  present.  They  always 
have  a  cashier  in  charge,  or  some  floor  man. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  I  am  getting  at,  have  you  found  any  indica- 
tion of  these  hoodlums  being  interested  or  being  owners  of  any  of  these 
places  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  The  only  names  I  have  got  on  ownei^  of  places 
are  48  and  1719  West  Fifty-sixth  Street.  Mix  Novak,  at  810  South 
Des  Plaines,  and  9702  South  Western  was  Andrew  Red  Creighton. 

Mr.  Kerner.  Those  are  all  recognized  names  and  came  out  in  the 
Skidmore  matter. 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Rocco  De  Grazia  in  Melrose  Park,  Lumber 
Gardens. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  this  place,  the  Vernon  Countrj?-  Club  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  is  out  of  the  county. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  over  in  Lake  County  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Yes;  thank  God. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  who  owns  that  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Does  it  still  operate  ? 

]\Ir.  Gherscovich.  I  never  check  into  Lake  County. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  Gizzo  and  Fischetti  ?  Have  you  found 
any  places  that  you  could  trace  the  ownership  to  them  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  As  to  ownership,  you  can  never  trace  it. 

The  Chairman.  Why  ? 


262  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Gherscovich,  We  go  into  these  places,  and  the  men  we  see 
around,  and  from  our  conversations  in  making  investigations,  and  all 
of  our  investigators  are  pretty  well  known  in  there,  and  in  talking 
with  the  patrons,  it  seems  that  the  people  running  the  places  are 
always  the  cashier  or  a  floor  man.     As  to  the  owners,  they  don't  know. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  get  it  a  little  bit  further.  This  fellow 
Creighton,  is  he  a  w^ell-known  racketeer  here  in  the  Chicago  area? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Andrew  Creighton  formerly  operated  a  hand- 
book, managed  handbooks. 

The  Chairman.  Is  he  still  living? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  He  is. 

The  Chairman.  What  does  he  do  now  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Operating  a  handbook. 

The  Chairman.  Where? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Forest  Park,  and  9702  Southwest. 

The  Chairman.  Does  he  have  a  criminal  record  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  I  don't  think  he  has. 

The  Chairman.  Then  this  fellow  Rocco  De  Grazia,  is  he  a  well- 
known  racketter  in  this  area,  or  do  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  That  I  don't  know.  I  can  only  get  from  the 
newspaper 

The  Chairman.  Who  was  the  third  one  you  mentioned  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Mix  Novack,  Tom  Mix  Novack. 

The  Chairman.  What  does  he  do  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  He  is  reputed  to  be  a  handbook  operator  at 
4819  West  Sixty-fifth. 

The  Chairman.  Is  he  a  well-known  character  about  Cook  County  ? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  All  I  know  is  that  he  operates  a  handbook.  I 
don't  know  anything  about  these  people,  their  background. 

The  Chairman.  But  you  found  one  of  these  places  was  owned  by 
him? 

Mr.  Gherscovich.  Reputedly  owned  by  him.  It  is  the  talk  that  he 
owns  it. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  thank  you,  sir. 
(Witness  excused.) 

PURTHER  TESTIMONY  OE  ELMER  MICHAEL  WALSH,  SHERIFF, 
COOK  COUNTY,  ILL.,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  MAURICE  L.  GREENE, 
CHIEF,  COOK  COUNTY  HIGHWAY  POLICE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Sheriff,  do  you  recall  this  letter  ? 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  identify  the  date.  This  letter  of  June  29, 
1949,  to  you  from  Mr.  Boyle. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  I  do. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  what  action  was  taken  with  respect 
to  that  letter? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  wouldn't  remember  offliand  without  getting  my 
records.  I  have  Chief  Greene  here,  who  is  outside,  the  chief  of  my 
highway  police,  and  if  I  can  get  those  records  in,  I  can  tell  you  what 
action  we  took. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  get  the  chief  in. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  He  is  right  outside. 


ORGAMZED    CRIME    m   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  263 

My  recollection  is  that  we  raided  this  place  about  20  times. 

This  is  Chief  Greene,  gentlemen.^ 

The  Chairman.  How  are  you,  Chief?  . 

Chief,  do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give  this  com- 
mittee will  be  the  whole  truth  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you 
God? 

Mr.  Greene.  I  do.  „    ,      ^     ,    ^       ^     -rr-  i 

The  Chairman.  You  are  the  chief  of  the  Cook  County  Highway 

Police? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes,  sir.  ^,    ^  4.1 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Chief,  can  you  tell  us  the  number  of  times  that  the 
handbook  at  4819  West  Sixty-fifth  Street  was  raided,  offhand,  accord- 
ing to  our  records  ?  ,  •     i         i  t 

Mr.  Greene.  I  don't  know  that  I  have  that  particular  place,  i 
think  it  is  in  the  other  file.  .n^^  ttt    ^  c-  .. 

The  record  here  discloses  the  Hill  Top,  and  also  4817  West  Sixty- 
fifth  Street,  which  is  operated  by  the  same  people.  You  raid  them 
here  and  you  will  find  them  the  next  day  perhaps  over  at  the  other 
place.     We  have  taken  the  Hill  Top  12  times,  according  to  this  record, 

and  4817 10  times.  .        r.,      -^   -r^  1 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let  me  ask  this  question.  Sheriff:  Do  you  make  any 
effort  to  raid  gambling  places  in  incorporated  towns  ?      _ 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes.  I  want  to  correct  any  impression  yesterday 
that  we  don't  make  any  raids  in  incorporated  towns,  because  we  do. 
As  a  matter  of  fact,  Chief  Greene  reminded  me  after  I  left  here  yes- 
terday that  we  have  made  more  raids  in  incorporated  towns  than  we 
have  in  unincorporated  towns. 

Do  you  have  the  figures  there.  Chief  ?  .  n         ,  j 

In  incorporated  towns  we  have  made  806  raids,  and  we  have  made 
670  raids  in  unincorporated  towns. 

The  Chairman.  Six  hundred  seventy  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Six  hundred  seventy. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  its  ever  having  been  brought  to  your 
attention  that  some  of  your  deputies  were  at  those  locations? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes;  I  do.  I  remember  that.  On  one  occasion 
particularly,  up  at  the  Wagon  Wheel,  which  we  have  raided. 

Mr.  Greene.  Twenty  times. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Twenty  times.  ^      ,     ,  r^  •  s^  r^ 

One  of  my  squad  cars  was  seen  there.  I  asked  Chief  Greene  to 
check  it ;  and  will  you  tell  what  you  found  ?  ',       . 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  the  late  date,  the  last  one  we  had.  As  soon  as 
we  secured  information  regarding  that  place,  that  it  was  111  opera- 
tion—some days  and  some  weeks  they  wouldn't  be  there  at  all— when 
they  came  back,  we  put  a  detail  there.  This  particular  day  we  secured 
information  that  the  lieutenant  took  the  place  of  the  regular  squad. 
That  information  we  secured,  so  we  let  the  lieutenant  go.  \V  e  sus- 
pended him  and  let  him  out,  because  we  don't  condone  that  kind  ot 
situation.     That  is  what  happened  at  that  particular  place. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  remember  calling  in  the  lieutenant  and  discuss- 
ing it  with  him,  and  he  denied  that  the  place  was  m  operation  on  that 
date.  I  said,  "The  State's  attorney  wrote  me  a  letter  and  said  it  was 
in  operation,  and  your  instructions  from  Chief  Greene  were  to  post 
a  detail  there  to  stay  there  and  see  they  didn't  even  open,  and  it  was 
your  responsibility  up  in  that  district  to  do  that."     So  he  said  they 


264  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   IKiTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Avere  not  going  that  day,  regardless  of  the  letter  that  came  from  the 
State's  attorney.  So,  I  immediately  suspended  him  and  took  him 
out  of  police  work  entirely.     He  is  no  longer  with  me  any  more. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  deputies  or  investigators  from  your 
office  have  been  suspended? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  think  we  had  one  other  on  Sixty-fifth  Street; 
isn't  that  right,  Chief? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes.  We  received  a  letter  in  that  regard,  too.  It 
was  operating  at  the  same  time  the  squad  was  supposed  to  be  there. 
But  there  are  eight  different  places  in  that  block  that  they  can  func- 
tion. It  is  a  whole  big  corner,  Sixty-fifth  Street,  and  then  Cicero 
is  the  other  way.  Hill  Top  is  at  the  end  of  the  street,  and  this  tavern 
is  at  that  end.  But  there  is  a  grocery  and  a  dairy  and  tliere  are  two 
homes.  They  are  so  situated  that  they  can  operate  in  any  of  these 
eight  places.  It  is  humanly  impossible,  sometimes,  for  one  squad  to 
go  around  and  find  out,  because  definitely  the  place  is  closed  if  you 
look  at  it.     It  is  a  difficult  corner  there  at  times. 

The  Chairman.  When  a  raid  is  conducted,  do  you  take  out  all  the 
equipment  and  everything  they  have  there? 

Mr.  Greene.  Everything  that  they  have  in  there. 
The  Chairman.  Isn't  it  possible  to  padlock  the  place  ? 
Sheriff  Walsh.  No;  we  don't  have  injunction  proceedings  in  this 
State,  Senator.  I  understand  the  Chicago  Crime  Commission  is  work- 
ing on  a  bill  now  to  have  the  same  injunctive  procedure  as  we  had 
here  during  the  prohibition  days  when  Federal  prohibition  w^as  in 
force  here. 

I  remember  another  lieutenant  that  we  suspected  was  not  doing 
his  job.  I  called  him  in.  I  told  him  we  weren't  satisfied  with  the 
way  he  was  keeping  gambling  down  in  the 'district  he  w^as  in.  I 
broke  him  from  a  lieutenant  to  a  sergeant,  and  then  he  left  my  force 
shortly  after  that,  about  a  year  ago. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Those  are  the  only  three  instances  ? 
Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes. 
]\Ir.  Greene.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  any  jurisdiction  over  Calumet  City? 
Sheriff  Walsh.  The  primary  jurisdiction  in  Calumet  City  is  on 
their  own  police  force  there,  but  I  have  raided  Calumet  City  through 
my  police  force.  Chief  Greene  here,  many,  many  times.  I  think  we 
have  a  total  number  of  raids  in  Calumet  City  since  I  have  been  sheriff, 
40  slot  machines,  35  books,  22  miscellaneous  arrests,  crap  games,  card 
games,  punchboards,  and  strip-tease  violations,  a  total  of  about  97. 

Calumet  City  has  always  been  a  sore  spot  here  in  Cook  County  with 
us.  It  is  a  hot  spot.  It  is  the  steel-mill  district.  It  has  always  been 
a  sore  spot  to  us. 

I  remember  one  occasion  that  I  myself,  personally,  went  out  there — 
the  only  way  I  can  possibly  conduct  a  raid  in  a  big  town  like  Calumet 
City,  because  of  the  system  they  have  for  warning  the  minute  the 
squad  car  comes  in  that  town.  They  have  a  warning  system  there 
which  tips  them  all  off  and  everything  goes  down  immediately. 
Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  to  use  squad  cars  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  use  private  cars  when  we  can.  We  don't  have 
private  cars,  Mr.  Halley.    We  have  to  use  squad  cars. 

On  this  one  raid  that  I  participated  in  personally  and  directed  it, 
which  was  when  Chief  Johnson  was  with  me,  I  took  men  from  other 


ORGAlSriZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  265 

departments  in  my  office,  when  they  finished  their  regular  work,  and 
asked  them  to  help  me  out.  I  spent  3  weeks  planning  the  raid.  As  a 
result  of  that,  I  had  40  men  in  this  raid.  We  came  in  through  Indiana 
in  order  to  effect  the  raid.  I  think  that  time  we  made  about  35 
arrests. 

I  wrote  to  the  mayor  of  Calumet  City  at  least  a  dozen  letters, 
apprising  him  of  the  situation  out  there,  telling  him  to  have  his  police 
force  do  their  job. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  have  before  me  two  letters  from  j'ou  to  the  State's 
attorney  of  Cook  County,  one  of  September  13, 1949,  in  which  you  say, 
and  I  quote : 

With  reference  to  dice  games  operating  in  Calumet  City,  this  information  was 
forwarded  by  Chief  Greene  to  the  lieutenant  in  charge  of  the  Homewood 
Station  of  the  Cook  County  Highway  Police.  He  visited  tlie  locations  named  in 
the  letter,  and  also  other  establishments  on  the  streets  of  Calumet  City.  No 
games  were  in  operation  Friday,  September  9,  10,  or  up  to  the  present  date, 
September  13.  "We  have  squads  assigned  to  that  territory  to  keep  a  constant 
check  on  gaming  of  any  kind  in  the  Calumet  City  area. 

Did  your  subsequent  experience  indicate  to  you  that  the  informa- 
tion you  received,  referred  to  in  this  letter,  was  wrong  ? 

Sheriff  Waksh.  What  was  the  date  on  that? 

Mr.  Halley.  September  13,  1949. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Could  you  answer  that? 

Mr.  Gkeexe.  Maybe  you  have  it  in  here. 

I\Ir.  Halley.  That  is  your  letter. 

The  Chairman.  Here  is  the  letter,  if  you  want  to  see  it. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  but  we  have  letters  here  which  will  answer 
that,  I  believe.  Senator. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  notice  on  November  1,  after  the  district  attorney 
then  called  to  your  attention  that  one  of  your  squad  cars  was  seen  in 
Calumet  City,  you  then  wrote  another  letter  saying  that  you  have 
found  gambling  there;  that  you  had  written  another  registered  let- 
ter to  the  ma3^or  urging  revocation  of  licenses  of  four  clubs.  I  think 
you  also  said  that  whoever  in  your  office  was  there  must  have  been 
making  a  routine  investigation. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  date  of  that  letter? 

Mr.  Halley.  This  is  November  1,  1949. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  remember  that  letter.  I  have  a  copy  of  it  in  my 
files.  I  also  wrote  a  letter  to  Wlekinski  on  the  same  date,  who  is 
the  mayor  of  Calumet  City.    I  said : 

About  10  days  ago  I  wrote  a  registered  letter  informing  you  an  investigator 
of  the  State's  attorney's  office  had  reported  a  handbook  in  operation  at  the 
Owl  Club  at  Douglas  and  Plummer  Streets  in  Calumet  City,  and  asked  that 
you  take  proper  and  necessary  action.  Since  that  time,  highway  police  from 
my  office  have  raided  the  Owl  Club,  also  known  as  the  Cozy  Corner,  and  found 
a  book  in  operation,  and  arrested  the  operators. 

My  records  further  indicate  that  this  office  has  previously  made  7  raids,  33 
arrests,  and  that  on  March  23,  1949,  I  wrote  you  another  registered  letter 
recommending  that  the  license  issued  to  this  establishment  be  revoked  because 
of  repeated  gambling  violations.  A  copy  of  this  letter  was  also  sent  to  the 
Honorable  John  S.  P^osdick,  district  attorney. 

I  again  urge  that  my  original  recommendation  pertaining  to  the  revocation 
of  the  license  of  this  tavern  be  carried  out  at  this  time. 

The  State's  attorney  informed  me  that  his  investigator  also  reported  gambling 
at  the  Riptide  Club,  101  South  State  Street;  the  Rendezvous  Club,  100  State 
Street;  and  the  Four  Aces  at  206  State  Street.  My  records  also  indicate  that 
68958—51 — pt.  5 18 


266  ORGANIZED    CRIMD   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

sheriff's  police  raifled  the  Riptide  Club  for  gambling  operations  on  December  6, 
11)47,  and  again  on  February  6,  1949,  resulting  in  convictions  and  tines.  Like- 
wise, the  Kendezvous  Club  was  raided  by  the  sheriff's  police  on  December  6, 
1948,  and  resulted  in  a  conviction,  as  well  as  the  Four  Aces  Club  on  July  1,  1947, 
and  on  May  26,  1947,  all  of  which  resulted  in  convictions  of  gambling  violations. 
I  therefore  also  recommend  that  the  license  be  revoked  of  the  Riptide  Club 
and  the  Rendezvous  Club  and  the  Four  Aces. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  view  of  your  strong  findings  tliat  tliere  was 
gambling  in  Calumet  City,  would  it  be  your  view  that  the  information 
you  received  from  your  lietitenant  in  charge  of  the  Homewood  Station, 
referred  to  in  the  letter  of  September  lo,  saying  that  no  games  were 
in  operation  on  September  9  through  13,  would  be  rights  Does  that 
sound  reasonable  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  The  man  in  charge  of  that  station,  I  called  him  in 
and  asked  for  his  resignation. 

Mr,  Halley.  Did  you  get  it  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  that  one  of  the  three  ? 

Sheriff  Walsit.  No  ;  that  is  another  one.    I  forgot  about  it. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  again  make  a  raid  in  Calumet  City? 

The  Chairman.  About  how  long  ago  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  We  have  the  arrest  slip  here — "8-17-50,  the  34  Club, 
Calumet  City,  raided  as  a  book." 

The  Chairman.  August  17,  1950? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes.  That  is  the  last  date  that  a  raid  was  made  in 
Calumet  City. 

Mr.  Halley.  Chief,  what  was  your  prior  experience  before  becom- 
ing head  of  the  county  highway  patrol  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  I  have  been  in  this  department  for  9  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  Sheriff's  department? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  right.  I  also  was  in  the  Parole  Office  of  the 
State  of  Illinois,  and  I  worked  for  the  Government  prior  to  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  AVhat  government  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  The  Department  of  Commerce. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  what  capacity  had  you  worked  for  the  Department 
of  Commerce? 

Mr.  Greene.  Some  work  in  the  Census  Bureau.  They  had  some 
work  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  went  to  work  for  the  parole  office  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Parole  office. 

Mr.  Halley.  Which  parole  office  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  The  State  of  Illinois. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  type  of  work  did  you  do  there? 

Mr.  Greene.  Investigator  and  parole  agent. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  went  to  the  sheriff's  office? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Seven  years  ago  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Nine  years  ago.     I  have  been  here  9  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  Which  sheriff  appointed  you  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  O'Brien.  I  have  been  here  under  five  sheriffs  now: 
O'Brien ;  Carey — Carey  died ;  Brodie  took  over,  as  the  coroner ;  then 
Mulcahy  came  in ;  and  Sheriff  Walsh. 

Mr.  Halley.  Had  you  served  on  the  highway  police  under  all  those 
sheriffs? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  right. 


ORGAlSriZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  267 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  been  chief  of  the  highway  police? 

Mr.  Greene.  June  2, 1949, 1  took  over. 

Mr.  Halley.  AVhat  had  been  your  job  before  June  2,  1949? 

Mr.  Gkeene.  I  was  working  in  the  sheriff's  office  on  the  fourth  floor 
for  a  year  prior  to  that,  and  before  that  I  wasn't  connected  with  the 
sheriff's  office.  I  wasn't  feeling  too  well,  either.  I  left  there.  It  was 
the  political  set-up  why  I  left  there,  more  or  less. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  leave  the  sheriff's  office? 

^Ir.  Greene.  The  first  of  the  year,  1948. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  "political  set-up"? 

Mr.  Greene.  Well,  I  wasn't  sponsored  right,  and  that  was  the  rea- 
son for  my  being  let  out  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  let  you  out  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  The  sheriff  here. 

]\Ir.  Halley.  Why  weren't  you  sponsored  right  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  the  way  the  word  came  down  the  line. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  were  you  sponsored  by  ? 

Mr,  Greene.  By  my  ward  organization. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  ward? 

Mr.  Greene.  The  fortieth  ward.  Originally  I  came  in  sponsored, 
when  I  first  took  the  job,  under  a  Democratic  regime,  and  I  had  to 
have  a  Republican  sponsor  to  stay  in  this  office  after  the  sheriff  took 
office. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  came  back  in  July  1949  ? 

]Mr.  Greene.  No  I  came  back  4  months  after  I  went  out,  January, 
February,  March,  April — about  April  of  1948 — and  I  went  to  work  on 
the  fourth  floor  as  a  writ  server. 

Mr.  Halley.  Had  you  found  a  Republican  sponsor? 

Mr,  Greene.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Who  sponsored  you  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Originally,  or  this  Republican? 

Mr.  Halley.  The  second  time. 

Mr.  Greene.  George  Ibsen.  He  is  the  Republican  ward  committee- 
man of  the  fortieth  ward. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  left  the  office  in  1948,  what  was  your 
position  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  I  was  acting  lieutenant,  Homewood. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  the  highway  police  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  had  you  held  that  position  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  I  would  say  about  10  months. 

Mr.  Halley.  About  10  months? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long,  altogether,  had  you  been  in  the  highway 
police  up  to  1948? 

Mr.  Greene.  Up  until  1948?      It  would  be  61^  or  7  years. 

Mr.  Halley.  All  spent  in  the  highway  police  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yas;  I  was  a  deputy,  sergeant,  and  lieutenant.  I 
worked  my  way  all  the  way  through. 

Mr.  Halley.  Sheriff,  I  believe  you  were  asked  to  bring  some  records 
as  to  your  income. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Xo  ;  I  wasn't. 
.    Mr.  Halley.  You  were  not? 

Sheriff'  Walsh.  No. 


268  ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Could  3' on  state  what  your  income  has  been  in  the  hist 
4  years? 

The  Chairman.  Before  you  get  on  to  that,  let  me  ask  the  chief  a 
question  or  two. 

I  do  not  think  you  are  ever  going  to  get  any  real  law  enforce- 
ment in  the  county  as  long  as  you  have  this  ward-sponsorship  system 
and  a  complete  turn-over  of  personnel  every  time  you  have  a  new 
sheriif,  and  the  division  of  responsibility  between  the  municipalities, 
the  sheriif's  office,  and  the  State's  attorney's  office.  It  looks  to  me 
like  one  awful  mess. 

You  were  in  there,  and  then  you  had  another  sheriff.  Sheriff  Walsh 
came  along  and  you  did  not  have  the  right  sponsorship,  so,  without 
any  hard  feelings,  you  were  just  out  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  true;  that  is  politics.  My  department  is 
quite 

The  Chairman.  Then  you  looked  around  and  got  another  sponsor. 
Who  is  Mr.  Ibsen  ?  ' 

Mr,  Greene.  He  is  the  Republican  ward  committeeman  in  the  same 
ward,  the  fortieth  ward,  Avhere  I  came  from  originally  sponsored 
under  the  Democratic  regime  when  I  came  to  this  office. 

The  Chairman.  What  business  is  he  in  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  He  is  chief  bailiff  of  the  criminal  court.  He  is  with 
the  sheriff's  office. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Any  relation  to  Joe  Epstein? 

The  Chairman.  It  is  I-b-s-e-n  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  I-b-s-e-n,  George  Ibsen. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  get  somebody  to  sponsor  you  like 
that  ?     Is  there  any  money  ever  passed  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  No,  sir.  The  precinct  captain — that  is  what  I  have 
been,  precinct  captain,  and  carried  a  pretty  good  one.  He  just  wanted 
me  over  on  his  side.  He  saw  I  was  in  this  job,  and  the  job  was  a  Re- 
publican office  now,  and  I  liked  the  work  and  wanted  to  stay.  He 
decided  to  take  me  over  and  go  into  his  organization.  That  is  where 
the  letter  of  sponsorship  came  through. 

The  Chairman.  You  mean  the  precinct  captain?     Who  was  he? 

Mr.  Greene.  I  was  the  precinct  captain,  and  in  order — I  was  a 
Democratic  precinct  captain  for  some  years,  and  I  stayed  through  the 
Democratic  regimes,  these  four  sheriffs ;  and  then  Sheriff  Walsh  came 
in,  and  it  was  a  Republican  regime. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  take  your  precinct,  then,  ov^er  to  the  Re- 
publican organization  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  How  do  you  do  that ;  just  take  it  over  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Well,  you  live  in  a  place  for  so  many  years,  the  people 
know  you,  and  eventually  you  go  out,  just  like  a  salesman  trying  to 
sell.  Instead  of  merchandise,  you  sell  a  candidate,  whoever  you  are 
going  out  politically  for. 

The  Chairman.  So  when  you  got  a  Republican  sheriff,  you  just  took 
your  organization  over  to  the  Republicans? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  people  do  you  vote  in  your  precinct? 

Mr.  Greene.  Five  hundred  twenty. 

The  Chairman.  What  precinct  is  that? 

Mr.  Greene.  Fortj^-fifth  precinct  of  the  fortieth  ward. 


ORGAN^IZED    CRIME    IN   IXTEESTATE    COMMERCE  269 

Tlie  Chairman.  I  thought  you  said  Mr.  Ibsen  was  in  the  forty- 
fourth  ward. 

Mr.  Greene.  In  the  fortieth,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  You  vote  how  many  people  in  your  precinct? 

]\Ir.  Greene.  In  an  election  ? 

The  Chairman.  Yes. 

Mr.  Greene.  As  high  as  450  in  an  election. 

The  Chairman.  How  mau}^  of  them  can  you  carry  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  I  don't  carry  too  many.     I  carry  about  50  or  60  votes. 

The  Chairman.  You  carry  50  or  60  either  way  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Well,  it  was  a  little  more  the  other  way,  before. 

The  Chairman.  You  used  to  carry  a  little  better  Democratic  than 
3^ou  could  Republican? 

Mr.  Greene.  Those  were  different  years,  too.  I  guess  times  were 
a  litle  different,  too.  When  Roosevelt  was  there,  it  made  a  difference, 
too. 

The  Chairman.  So  a  lot  of  people  just  follow  you,  whatever  your 
personal  wishes  are? 

Mr.  Greene.  Well,  sort  of  friendly.  If  there  is  any  advice  or  any 
help  I  can  give  them,  I  am  ever  grateful  to  do  it. 

The  Chairman.  What  sheriff'  put  you  in  first? 

Mr.  Greene.  O'Brien. 

The  Chairman.  Was  he  a  Republican  or  Democrat? 

Mr.  Greene.  Democrat.    He  is  a  Congressman  now. 

The  Ch^virman.  "VYliat  is  his  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Thomas  O'Brien. 

The  Chairman.  That  was  in  1942  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes,  that  is  right.    That  is  when  he  came  in. 

The  Chairman.  What  would  happen  if,  when  you  got  to  be  sheriff, 
you  said,  "It  may  have  been  run  under  the  spoils  system  in  the  past 
but  I  am  going  to  keep  good  people  in  here,  and  am  not  going  to 
look  at  their  politics  in  the  matter.'*    What  would  happen  to  you  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Of  course,  when  you  are  selected  as  the  candidate, 
you  have  to  make  a  pledge  that  you  will  hire  Republicans. 

The  Chairman.  To  wJiom  do  you  make  your  pledge? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  To  the  county  central  committee. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  do  not  make  a  pledge,  then  you  are  in  the 
dog  house  from  then  on  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  You  probably  wouldn't  be  selected. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  make  the  pledge  and  then  do  not  work  out 
that  way 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  insisted  on  taking  care  of  World  War  II  vets  in 
my  campaign,  and  as  I  think  I  testified  yesterday,  I  have  over  60  per- 
cent of  my  highway  police  as  World  War  II  vets,  and  most  of  those 
did  not  come  through  the  political  organizations. 

The  Chairman.  What  sort  of  pledge  do  you  have  to  take  ?  Do  you 
hold  up  your  hand  and  swear  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No,  sir,  nothing  like  that.  You  just  agree  that  you 
will  hire  Republicans. 

The  Chairman.  If  they  are  behind  you,  you  will  hire  Republicans 
and  clear  it  with  the  w^ard  committeemen^ 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes,  and  they  have  the  same  system  in  the 
Democrats. 


270  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INITERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Democrat  or  Republican,  it  is  not  a  very  good  way 
to  run  a  law-enforcement  agency. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  right.  I  recommended  that  the  highway 
police  be  civil  service.  I  am  in  favor  of  it,  and  I  have  been  in  favor  of 
it  within  6  months  after  taking  office. 

The  Chairman.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Halley.    I  interrupted  you. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  addition  to  your  income  as  sheriff,  have  you  had 
any  other  income  in  the  last  4  years  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  My  salary  is  about  $10,000  a  year,  $9,960  to  be 
exact.  I  was  in  the  service  for  49  months  from  1942  to  1945,  and  I 
immediately  came  out  and  didn't  have  a  chance  to  pick  up  the  threads 
of  my  law  practice.  I  went  right  into  the  sheriff's  office.  I  was  elected 
in  that  first  campaign.  My  only  income  after  I  got  out  of  the  service 
was  from  some  of  my  old  clients,  where  lawyers  were  handling  my 
work  for  me.  I  think  it  dwindled  down,  and  each  year  it  got  less, 
because  I  had  lost  contact  with  them. 

I  would  say  that  maybe  the  first  year  I  got  out,  when  I  got  back 
from  the  Army,  approximately  $2,500  or  $3,000.  The  next  year  it 
was  about  a  thousand  dollars  less;  and  the  last  year,  my  last  income 
tax,  I  think  was  around  $1,400. 

Mr.  Halley.  Did  you  have  any  other  income  except  that  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  had  a  little  income  from  stocks  and  bonds,  but 
not  an  appreciable  amount. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  the  total  amount  you  reported  in  1949,  for 
the  year  1949  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Let's  see,  $10,000  plus  about  $1,400;  maybe  2,100 
or  $2,200.    That  would  be  the  size  of  my  salary,  approximately. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  mean  $700  or  $800  would  be  income  from  stocks 
and  bonds  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes ;  all  other  income. 

Mr.  Halley.  Are  you  a  man  of  any  substantial  wealth? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No;  I  am  not.  I  have  a  family  of  four.  A  son  at 
Annapolis  Naval  Academy.  I  have  a  son  in  the  Air  Force  now,  a 
second  lieutenant ;  two  daughters. 

I  sold  my  home  before  I  was  elected  sheriff.  I  live  in  a  home  out  on 
the  South  Shore.  The  house  is  vacant  now.  I  also  own  a  place  in 
Michigan,  a  summer  place  which  I  built  13  years  ago,  a  summer  cot- 
tage right  around  the  lake. 

Mr.  Halley.  Have  you  acquired  any  property  in  the  last  4  years  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No  ;  I  have  not. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  connection  with  the  slot-machine  seizures,  could 
you  state  how  many  seizures  were  made  each  year?  I  think  you  have 
given  the  committee  a  total  of  1,400.  Could  you  break  that  down  by 
years  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Maybe  Chief  Greene  can  do  that  better  than  me. 

Mr.  Greene.  It  is  a  hard  thing  to  decide.  There  is  no  equal  amount 
that  you  ever  take.  All  Ave  do  is  keep  them  for  a  certain  length  of 
time,  and  then  destroy  them.  As  far  as  knowing  the  actual  amount, 
since  I  have  been  here  I  have  destroyed  close  to  600 ;  since  I  have  been 
chief  I  have  destroyed  that  many. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  you  account  for  the  fact  that  the  county  attorney's 
office,  in  the  same  period,  was  able  to  go  out  and  find  about  the  same 
number  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  271 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  according  to  their  figure.  I  guess  that  is  it. 
I  wouldn't  know. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  would  like  to  make  an  observation  on  that. 

Mr.  Hakley.  Would  you,  please'^ 

Sheriff  Walsh.  The  State's  attorney,  of  course,  according  to  the 
press,  has  Chicago  policemen  who  went  out  to  do  this  work,  70  police- 
men. We  couldn't  get  70  men  to  go  out  on  a  gambling  raid,  no  matter 
what  we  tried  to  do,  except  if  we  took  them  from  other  departments, 
and  their  work  would  suffer  by  it.  He  had  the  manpower  to  do  it. 
That  is  No.  1. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  think  he  pointed  out  that  these  policemen  were  not 
available  for  that  work  in  any  great  numbers. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  not  the  information  we  have. 

Mr.  Greene.  The  State's  attorney? 

Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

Mr.  Greene.  He  has  them  just  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  Halley.  Can  he  use  them  in  the  county,  city  police  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  He  has  been  doing  that. 

The  Chairman.  He  said  he  had  76  police  officers,  and  they  were 
supposed  to  serve  subpenas  and  work  up  cases  after  an  indictment  had 
been  returned. 

Mr.  Greene.  When  I  have  been  out  in  the  county  there  on  raids, 
they  have  been  out  in  all  three  districts,  everywhere,  at  one  time;  and 
it  is  liumanl}'  impossible  to  be  in  three  districts  unless  you  have  the 
manpower  to  get  out.  I  would  find  four  or  five  of  them  places,  and 
maybe  he  would  find  the  same  amount,  but  he  would  have  enough  men 
to  leave  in  the  place.  He  could  leave  the  men  sit  in  there.  In  many  a 
case,  it  has  been  there,  because  when  j'ou  go  to  court  you  hear  the  tesi- 
mony.  They  sit  and  drink  a  couple  of  glasses  of  beer  and  wait  it  out, 
and  all  of  a  sudden  they  find  somebody  going  into  the  next  room  some- 
where, and  start  playing  the  slot  machine.  If  you  can  sit  here  and 
wait  it  out,  you  can  surely  find  something,  or  else  go  down  in  the 
basement  and  find  it.  But  if  you  are  well  known,  you  have  a  difficult 
situation  sitting  in  a  tavern  trying  to  find  out  when  they  will  push  a 
machine  out  and  when  they  will  take  it  back  in. 

The  Chairman.  There  is  some  testimony  here  to  the  effect,  I  believe 
Mr.  Boyle  said,  that  he  started  raiding  slot  machines  in  November 
1949,  and  when  he  started  getting  them  you  just  quit  getting  them. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  not  true. 

Mr.  Greene.  We  are  still  at  it. 

The  Chairman.  Maybe  that  is  not  exactly  what  he  said. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  have  been  getting  fewer  since  he  started,  because 
naturally  the  places  that  we  would  take  them  from,  he  got  them. 

Then  again,  the  State's  attorney  went  to  private  clubs,  country 
clubs,  and  took  machines.    We  didn't  do  that. 

The  Chairivian.  Why  didn't  you  do  that  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Because  we  felt  that  the  machines  that  were  in  these 
public  places  on  the  highway  were  more  apt  to  be  syndicate-controlled. 
We  didn't  have  the  manpower  to  go  into  all  these  private  clubs,  the 
American  Legion  and  Veterans  of  Foreign  Wars  and  the  private 
country  clubs  all  over  the  county. 

Mr.  Greene.  And  j^ou  need  a  warrant  to  get  into  any  of  those  places. 
Definitely,  if  they  know  who  j^ou  are,  they  won't  let  you  get  past  the 
door. 


272  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  Would  you  care  to  comment  on  the  law-enforcement 
situation  in  the  county  ?  As  you  may  have  heard,  we  have  heard  about 
there  bein^  some  wide-open  dice  game  in  Calumet  City,  and  we  just 
rode  out  there,  and  there  it  was.  We  asked  State's  Attorney  Boyle 
about  the  county  situation,  and  we  have  a  record  of  a  substantial  num- 
ber of  letters  from  the  State's  attorney  to  you,  calling  to  your  atten- 
tion places  that  he  had  found  that  were  open.  We  were  wondering 
M-hat  comment  you  might  have  on  the  law-enforcement  situation  in  tlie 
county. 

Sheriff  Walsh,  With  reference  to  the  letters  received  from  the 
State's  attorney,  of  course  you  have  to  take  this  into  consideration, 
that  on  the  manpower  problem  he  had  us  licked  four  to  one,  to 
say  nothing  of  having  plainclothesmen  and  investigators  out  who 
could  spot  the  places.  For  the  most  part,  the  letters  I  got  from 
State's  Attorney  Boyle  in  the  county,  with  the  exception  probably 
of  Calumet  City,  were  all  books.  I  think  in  only  one  case  he  told 
me  there  was  a  slot  machine  to  raid.  It  was  always  books  in  the 
county. 

I  feel  that  as  sheriff  of  this  county  for  nearly  4  years  now — and 
I  have  gone  back  and  checked  the  records  of  previous  sheriffs — ■ 
and  so  far  as  I  can  find,  my  antigambling  record  is  better  than 
that  of  any  sheriff  in  Cook  County  at  any  time. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  the  books?  Did  you  go  raid  them 
when  he  would  write  you  about  them  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes;  every  time.  I  have  letters  in  here  answer- 
ing his  letter,  telling  wdiat  we  did.  Every  time  he  wrote  us  a  letter 
on  a  book,  we  would  go  out  and  raid  it  if  it  was  going.  If  it  wasn't 
going,  we  would  try  to  find  where  it  moved  to. 

Mr.  Halley.  Of  course,  you  have  the  situation,  I  think  three 
cases  in  which  he  called  to  your  attention  your  squad  cars  parked 
in  front  of  places  where  there  was  gambling,  and  in  fact,  you  re- 
moved lieutenants  as  a  result.  Does  that  create  any  feeling  in  your 
mind  that  your  system  needs  checking  up  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  took  that  opportunity  to  admonish  every- 
body in  the  department,  and  I  passed  on  to  Chief  Greene  that  any 
time  we  had  a  similar  occurrence,  something  worse  than  just  firing 
would  happen  to  them. 

Mr,  Halley.  How  many  lieutenants  have  you  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Three. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  captains  over  there  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  they  all  serve  under  you? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley,  Then  you  had  to  fire  all  your  lieutenants? 

Mr,  Greene,  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  At  different  times? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  We  fired  two  lieutenants. 

Mr.  Greene.  I  tell  you,  your  whole  picture  is  manpower.  When 
I  first  started,  w^e  had  101  more  men  than  we  have  right  now,  and, 
due  to  the  war — no  gas,  tires,  and  cars — they  were  eliminated  in 
1944.  As  the  sheriff  stated — I  don't  know  wdiether  he  stated  it  or 
not — we  put  in  a  request,  I  know,  last  year,  and  we  have  given 
them  enough  information.     The  circuit  court  judge  who  presides, 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  273 

in  other  words,  gives  you  the  amount  of  help  in  a  fee  office  that  you 
are  supposed  to  have.  Last  year  we  had  close  to  11,000  calls,  any- 
where from  dog  bites  to  murder,  that  were  handled  by  my  department. 

The  manpower  is  the  situation,  in  every  instance.  Many  a  time 
you  can  put  a  detail  on  a  gambling  place  and  they  won't  operate. 
It  is  standing  right  there. 

Mr.  Halley.  I  don't  see  the  relationship  of  manpower  to  the 
fact  that  you  had  to  fire  two  lieutenants. 

Mr.  Greene.  One  didn't  do  his  job;  and  the  other  one,  the  States 
attorney  claimed  was  seen  in  front  of  this  place,  and  that  is  when  he 
was  suspended.  That  is  the  relationship.  In  other  words,  one  wasn't 
in  front  of  anyplace,  the  one  that  was  let  out.  The  one  that  was,  the 
last  one,  he  was  supposed  to  be  in  front  of  this  place,  where  we  had  a 
uniformed  detail  there,  and  then  the  uniformed  detail  was  called  off 
and  he  was  there.  Seeing  that  he  was  on  the  premises,  the  sheriff  took 
it  on  himself,  and  it  was  also  my  recommendation  that  we  suspend 
him.  On  investigation,  we  let  him  out.  In  other  words,  we  don't  con- 
done the  condition.  It  has  been  hard  going  with  the  amount  of  men 
we  have  had  to  work  with. 

The  Chairman.  You  have  776  men,  altogether  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  One  hundred  twenty-six. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  About  727  on  the  rolls  now. 

The  Chairman.  That  is  employees? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  They  are  employed  in  the  county  jail 

The  Chairman.  That  many  officers  or  men  that  you  have  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Those  are  just  personnel  that  the  county  board 
allotted  to  us,  that  the  circuit  judge  gives  us,  to  perform  certain  duties 
in  my  office.  That  includes  the  county  jail  officers  in  charge  of  guard- 
ing that  jail,  which  is  the  largest  county  jail  in  the  United  States,  with 
a  population  of  about  1,300  over  there  as  a  general  average.  That 
includes  all  the  bailiffs  in  all  the  civil  courts,  all  the  bailiffs  m  all  the 
criminal  courts  on  the  West  Side.  That  includes  all  the  process  sei^^ers 
that  serve  civil  writs,  all  the  process  servers  who  serve  criminal  writs 
and  bench  warrants  and  indictments  in  the  criminal  end  of  it.  It  also 
includes  the  custodial  work  in  the  county  building,  the  elevator 
operators. 

The  Chairman.  How  many  does  that  leave  you  that  you  can  have 
out  to  enforce  the  law  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  The  circuit  court  judge  fixed  that  number  exactly, 
129. 

I  have  taken  men  from  some  departments  at  times,  and  put  them  in 
to  help  out  on  the  police  work,  but  you  can't  do  that  all  the  time,  be- 
cause they  can't  work  dav  and  night.  We  try  to  get  additional  help 
each  year.  We  ask  for  100  additional  men.  And  each  year  when  the 
budget  comes  up,  we  never  get  them. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else,  Mr.  Halley? 

Mr.  Halley.  Chief,  what  is  your  salary  as  chief  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  $6,500  a  year. 

Mr.  Halley.  In  1949,  did  you  have  any  income  aside  from  your 
income  from  the  chief's  job? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  all. 

Mr.  Halley.  Thank  you. 


274  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INITERSTATE    COMMERCE 

The  Chairman.  Sheriff,  are  all  these  stocks,  and  things  you  own, 
listed  stocks  on  the  exchange  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Yes ;  they  are  all  listed  stocks. 

Tlie  Chairman.  Do  either  you  or  the  chief  own  any  interest  in  any 
tavern  or  anything  of  that  sort  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  No.    I  have  no  interest  in  any  tavern. 

Mr.  Greene.  No,  sir ;  none. 

The  Chairman.  Or  in  any  business,  except  corporate  stocks  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  you  live  ?    You  say  you  sold  your  home. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  live  on  the  South  Side,  1500. 

The  Chairman.  Just  a  rented  home  ? 

Sheriff  Walsh.  I  am  living  in  an  apartment  now. 

The  Chairman.  Where  do  you  live.  Chief  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Apartment  33'33  West  Birdsall.  I  liave  lived  there  for 
121/^  years. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  a  man  of  means  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  No,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  You  have  no  income  except  salary  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Married  and  have  a  family  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  gentlemen.    Thaiik  you. 

( Discussion  off  the  record. ) 

The  Chairman.  Back  on  the  record. 

Besides  Calumet  City,  what  are  the  worst  spots  in  the  county  ? 

Mr.  Greene.  You  mean  the  places  themselves  ? 

The  Chairman.  No,  the  sections  or  the  towns. 

Mr.  Greene.  The  towns  would  be  Melrose  Park,  that  would  be  one. 

The  Chairman.  Where  else? 

Mr.  Greene.  And  Forest  Park.  That  is  about  all  of  the  towns.  Of 
course,  Calumet  City,  which  you  know  about.  Those  are  the  three 
towns. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  And  Cicero. 

Mr.  Greene.  Yes,  Cicero.    That  is  right. 

The  Chairman.  Anything  else  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Nothing  else. 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Senator,  may  I  have  this  made  a  part  of  the  record 
here  ?    It  is  a  factual  statement. 

The  Chairman.  Yes,  sir.     We  will  file  this  as  exhibit  No.  32. 

(The  booklet  referred  to,  Let's  Look  at  His  Record,  was  identified 
as  exhibit  No.  32,  and  is  on  file  with  the  committee.) 

Sheriff  Walsh.  Thank  you,  gentlemen. 

The  Chairman.  Thank  you.  Sheriff,  and  thank  you,  Chief. 

(Witnesses  excused.) 

The  Chairman.  Mr.  Bennett,  have  you  been  sworn  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  the  testimony  you  will  give 
this  committee  will  be  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  do. 

The  Chairman.  All  right,  gentlemen. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  275 

TESTIMONY  OF  HUGO  BENNETT,  SURFSIDE,  ELA. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  state  your  full  name? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Hugo  Bennett. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Have  you  always  had  that  name  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Your  name  has  been  changed  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wliat  was  it  originally  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Hugo  Benvenuti. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  your  address? 

Mr  Bennett.  9517  Carlisle  Avenue,  Surf  side,  1^  la. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  your  permanent  and  legal  residence  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes ;  it  is.  .    r^-i  •         o 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  a  residence  m  Chicago « 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.  .  . ,    , 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  file  your  returns  m  Florida  < 

Mr  R^oBixSi.  Mr.  Bennett,  you  did  produce  certain  books  and 
records  and  canceled  checks,  and  so  forth,  when  we  talked  the  other 
day.     Do  you  have  any  other  records? 

Mr  Robinson.  I  believe  you  mentioned  there  was  some  records  that 
weie  not  produced  that  youVould  look  for.     Do  you  have  those  records 

'' Mr.^BENNETT.  Yes;  I  think  I  have  what  we  talked  about.     You 
asked  for  the  mortgages.     I  got  those. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Bennett.  And  the  notes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  believe  there  were  two  mortgages. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  And  the  notes. 

The  Ch\ikman.  Let  us  identify  them  and  get  on  here. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  state  what  the  first  mortgage  is? 

Mr.  Hallet.  Identify  that.  -n  „„i. 

Mr.  Bennett.  This  is  a  first  mortgage  on  property  at  Long  Beach, 
Ind.,  belonging  to  Paul  DeLucia. 

The  Chapman.  Wliat  is  the  date  of  it,  so  we  caii  identity  it^ 

Mr  Bennett.  The  date  of  it  is  the  22d  day  of  June  1948.     _ 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  those  original  mortgages  or  are  they  copies  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  these  are  the  originals. 

:Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  the  original  note? 

Mr.  Bennett.  This  is  the  original  note. 

Mr.  Robinson.  May  I  take  a  look  at  them? 

(Documents  handed  to  Mr.  Robinson.) 

Mr  Robinson.  \Vliat  is  the  second  document  that  you  have? 

Mr*  Bennett.  The  second  document  is  the  second  mortga_ge  on  the 
property  of  Paul  and  Nancy  DeLucia  at  Kendall  County,  ill. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  date  of  that  mortgage  ?  . 

Mr.  Bennett.  The  date  of  that  mortgage  is— have  I  got  these  mixed 

^^^Mr.  Robinson.  This  is  June  22, 1948,  the  first  one. 
Mr.  Bennett.  May  17,  1950. 


276  ORGANIZED   CRIME   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  KoBiNSON.  May  I  look  at  those,  please  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  sir. 

(Documents  handed  to  Mr.  Robinson.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  are  you  employed,  Mr.  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  am  auditor  of  the  Miami  Beach  Kennel  Club  and 
the  National  Jockey  Club. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  connection  with  the  tracks  in  Chi- 
cao;o? 

Mr.  Bennett.  With  other  tracks? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  yes.  Well,  for  the  present,  I  also  am  employed 
at  Hawthorn. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  your  position  there  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  I  just  handle  its  parking. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  your  salary  from  the  clubs? 

Mr.  Bennett.  From  the  clubs  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  Yes. 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  is  $9,000  at  the  Miami  Beach  Kennel  Club,  and 
$6,000  at  the  National  Jockey  Club.    And 

The  Chairman.  The  National  Jockey  Club  is  Sportsman's  Park  out 
here? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  vou  obtain  employment  at  Sportsman's 
Park? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  was  out  of  a  position  in  1932,  and  just  came  into  the 
place  and  applied  for  a  job.  It  just  happened  that  they  needed  some- 
body. I  spoke  to  Mr.  O'Hare  at  the  time.  It  was  a  sort  of  temporary 
thing  at  first.  It  was  just  sort  of  a  temporary  thing  at  first.  He  liked 
my  work  and  kept  me  on  after  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  anyone  sponsor  you  for  that  job  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Robinson.  When  were  you  first  employed  there? 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  was  in  May  1932. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Are  you  responsible  for  keeping  the  books  and  rec- 
ords of  that  park  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  So  far  as  your  own  personal  records  are  concerned, 
do  you  keep  any  record  of  cash  receipts  and  disbursements,  and  that 
sort  of  thing  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  I  don't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  supervise  the  auditing  at  other  tracks  be- 
sides those  that  you  have  named  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  I  do  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  connection  with  the  auditing  work 
at  any  other  track  other  than  those  that  you  have  named  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  the  only  connection  I  have  is  just  in  a  sort  of  ad- 
visory capacity,  if  something  in  the  line  of  a  tax  matter  comes  up  or 
anything  like  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  receive  any  compensation  for  that? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.  I  did.  I  don't  believe  I  did  last  year  or  the 
year  before.    From  two  other  tracks. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  any  other  records?  It  just  occurred  to 
me  when  we  talked  the  other  day,  Mr.  Bennett,  you  were  goiug  to 
furnish  a  list  of  your  stock  holdings. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  277 

]Mr.  Bennett.  Yes ;  I  have  that  right  here. 

(Document  handed  to  Mr.  Robinson.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  added  to  that  list,  I  note,  the  amount  that 
you  paid  for  the  stock  at  the  time  of  acquisition. 
*    Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  right,  the  amount  of  money  that  the  stock 

cost  me. 

The  Chairman.  That  will  be  filed  as  exhibit  No.  33. 

(Exhibit  No.  33  appears  in  the  appendix  on  p.  1383.) 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  did  you  state  your  salary  to  be  from  Sports- 
man's Park  ? 

:Mr.  Bennett.  $6,000.  I  want  to  correct  that.  It  is  $6,000,  but  we 
have  two  charity  meetings  there. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Two  what  ^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  Charity  meetings.  We  have  two  extra  meetings 
there.  One  is  for  the  Chicago  Tribune  Charities,  and  one  is  for  the 
Herald- American  and  the  Daily  News.  I  do  get  extra  compensation 
from  those  two  meetings.  So  'it  will  probably  show  that  I  received 
more  than  $6,000  from  the  National  Jockey  Club. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  understood  in  our  interview  the  other  day  you 
stated  vour  salary  as  auditor  for  Sportsman's  Park  to  be  $22,500. 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.  You  asked  me  how  much  money  do  I  make  in 
salaries,  and  I  looked  at  my  tax  return  and  I  said  $22,000,  approxi- 
mately $22,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  your  salary  from  all  the  clubs  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  How  much  do  you  make  out  at  Hawthorn? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  $25  a  day. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Outside  of  the  stock  that  you  have  submitted  on  this 
list  here,  do  you  own  any  other  property? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.    1  have  listed  there  the  property  that  I  own. 

IVIr.  Robinson.  The  real  estate  that  you  own? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  includes  a  house  in  Florida  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  The  house  in  Florida,  yes,  and  I  have  the  original 
cost  there ;  and  a  house  in  Saugatuck,  Mich.,  a  cottage. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  have  listed  what  improvements  you  have  put 
into  the  house  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Approximately.    That  is  only  a  guess.  _ 

Mr.  Robinson.  ISIr.  Bennett,  do  you  know  Paul  DeLucia? 

]Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  quite  a  long  time.  I  can't  saj'  exactly  when 
I  first  remember  him.     It  was  since  I  was  a  child,  practically. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  frequently  do  you  see  him,  as  a  general  rule? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Not  too  frequently. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  frequently  have  you  seen  him  since  he  has 
been  out  of  the  penitentiary  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  I  would  say  about  7  or  8  times. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  were  the  occasions  for  those  meetings? 

Mr.  Bennett.  In  connection  with  these  loans. 

JSIr.  Robinson.  Do  you  see  him  socially  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Not  very  much ;  but  I  have  seen  him  socially,  also. 

Mr.  R; )Bi:'TS:iN.  Did  you  visit  him  when  he  was  in  prison  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  :  I  did  not. 


278  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   mrTERSTATE   COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  correspond'  with  him  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No;  I  did  not. 

Mr,  Robinson.  Prior  to  his  going  to  prison,  did  you  see  him  very 
frequently  ? 

Mr,  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  On  social  occasions  or  other  occasions? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes;  on  some  social  occasions. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  frequently  would  it  be? 

Mr,  Bennett,  Well,  I  would  say  every  time  I  would  come  in  town, 
I  would  pay  him  at  least  one  or  two  social  visits, 

Mr.  Robinson.  Would  that  be  at  his  farm  or  would  it  be  here  in 
town  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  in  town  here. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  see  him  frequently  at  the  Sportsman's 
track  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  have  never  seen  him  at  the  Sportsman's  track. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  have  a  safe  deposit  box,  Mr.  Bennett  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes ;  I  do. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  is  that? 

Mr.  Bennett,  I  have  one  at  the  Miami  Beach  First  National  Bank 
in  Miami  Beach,  Fla.,  and  I  have  one  at  the  Cicero  State  Bank  in 
Cicero,  111. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  do  you  keep  in  those  boxes  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Papers,  mostly  papers,  and  in  one  box  I  have  a  little 
cash. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  about  a  thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  banks  do  you  ordinarily  do  business  with  ? 

Mr.  Bent  ett.  Mercantile  National  Bank. 

Mr.  RoBi  ►rsoN.  That  is  where? 

Mr.  Ben  k^ett.  That  is  in  Miami  Beach.  That  is  the  only  bank  I 
do  business .  with. 

Mr.  RotAnson.  Mr.  Bennett,  would  you  relate  the  circumstances 
connected  with  your  first  loan  to  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  BEWNErr.  Well,  as  I  understood  it,  he  needed  some  money  to 
make  improvements  on  his  farm 

Mr.  Robinson.  Let's  take  it  up  in  as  much  detail  as  we  can.  Did 
he  get  in  touch  with  you,  and  how  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes;  he  did.  I  don't  remember  exactly,  but  I  be- 
lieve he  called  me  at  home,  at  my  home  here,  my  mother-in-law's 
home,  I  should  say,  here,  where  I  stay  when  I  am  in  town  here.  I 
went  to  visit  him,  and  he  mentioned  what  his  problems  were  about 
making  these  improvements  at  the  farm;  that  now  that  he  was  out 
and  on  parole,  he  was  going  to  center  on  the  farming  business.  He 
said  he  was  going  to  need  some  money.  He  asked  me  if  I  could  do 
anything  for  him  in  that  line,  and  I  asked  him  if  there  wasn't  any 
other  way  that  he  could  borrow  money.  He  said,  well,  he  would  try. 
He  said  there  was  not  particular  rush  about  this. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  much  did  he  want  to  borrow  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  at  the  time,  he  said  he  would  need  about 
$60,000,  or  something  like  that.  He  said  he  thought  that  would  meet 
his  needs. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  have  that  ainount  of  money? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  I  didn't. 


O'RGAjSnrZEO    CRIME    IN   rNTE;RSTATE    COMMERCE  279 

Then  I  just  left  to^Yn,  Avhich  I  always  do  about  the  1st  of  Decem- 
ber, and  I  went  to  Florida.  - 1  came  back  in  the  si)ring.  and  in  the 
spring  we  talked  again  about  this  loan.  At  that  time  I  made  hrni 
the  loan. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  When  you  first  talked  to  hnn,  was  there  any  hnal 
settlement  as  to  what  amount  he  did  want  or  what  amount  you  could 

get  for  him  ?  ,-    •        ,  i         i    i 

Mr.  Bennett.  No;  there  wasn't  anything  definite  about  tlie  whole 
thino-,  at  all.     He  just  thought  that  he  was  going  to  need  this  money. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  the  final  sum  of  $40,000  get  decided  on? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  said  he  was  going  to  need  more  than  that.  He 
said  he  was  going  to  try  to  borrow  money  elsewhere,  which  I  under- 
stand he  did  try.  The  sum  of  $40.000, 1  think,  was  arrived  at  because 
that  is  about  all  the  security  he  could  oifer  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  there  any  discussion  about  what  the  security 
was  going  to  be? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes;  about  that  time  we  discussed  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  discussion  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  asked  him  what  he  could  offer  for  security,  and  he 
told  me  that  he  could  offer  this  place  in  Long  Beach,  which  he  w^ould 
try  to  sell  then. 

Next,  if  I  remember  correctly,  when  we  first  talked  about  the  thing, 
he  was  going  to  try  to  sell  the  home  immediately.  AVhen  I  came  back 
in  the  spring,  he  hadn't  sold  it  yet. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  he  have  a  mortgage  on  it  at  that  time,  do  you 
know  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  he  didn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  inyestigate  to  find  out  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  My  attorney  investigated  all  that. 

I  also  told  him  to  investigate  and  see  if  there  w^ere  any  Govern- 
ment liens  on  it. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  were  satisfied  that  it  was  good  collateral? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  was  satisfied  it  was  good  collateral;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  at  what  time  the  loan  was  made? 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  was  in  the  spring  of  1948,  I  believe,  the  first 
loan. 

]Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  take  the  money  from  your  own  funds  to 
make  the  loan  ? 

Mr.  BENXE-rr.  I  borrowed  most  of  it.  I  borrowed  $20,000  from  Mr. 
Johnston. 

Mr.  Robinson.  "\Mio  is  he  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  is  the  president  of  Sportsman's  Park.  I  bor- 
rowed $15,000  from  Mr.  Silverberg. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  give  any  note  to  Mr.  Johnston? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes ;  I  gave  him  a  note,  and  I  gave  him  collateral, 
a^so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  collateral  that  you  gave  him  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  gave  him  the  stock  certificate  of  the  National 
J  ockey  Club. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  shares? 

Mr.  Bennett.  One  hundred  eighty  shares,  but  I  only  gave  him  146 
s  aares  as  collateral. 

Mr.  Robinson.  I  don't  follow  you.    You  said  you  had  180  shares? 


280  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INITERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes ;  180  shares.    I  gave  him  146  shares  as  collateral. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  You  got  $15,000  from  Mr.  Silverberg? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Max  Silverberg;  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  is  he? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  is  the  concessionaire  at  Arlington  Park,  Wash- 
ington Park,  and  Sportsman's  Park,  and  several  other  places. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Did  you  give  a  note  to  him  for  that? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes;  I  did. 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Did  you  give  him  any  collateral  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  I  didn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  No  collateral  whatsoever  was  put  up  for  that  loan  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No;  there  wasn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  was  the  conversation  with  Mr.  Johnston  when 
you  made  the  loan  from  him  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  just  told  him  I  had  to  make  an  investment  and  I 
wanted  to  borrow  $20,000.  I  told  him  I  could  offer  him  collateral 
lor  it. 

Mr.  Robijv^son.  How  about  Mr.  Silverberg? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  Mr.  Silverberg  had  loaned  me  money  on  pre- 
vious occasions,  and  he  didn't  want  any  collateral.  He  said  it  wasn't 
necessary.     He  would  just  lend  me  the  money  without  any  collateral. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wliere  did  the  other  $5,000  come  from  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  My  own  funds,  personal  funds. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  was  that  $40,000  made  i^ayable  to  Mr. 
DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  There  Avas  a  check  for  $10,000,  my  personal  check 
for  $10,000,  and  there  was  a  cashier's  check — to  the  Lest  of  my  recol- 
lection, a  cashier's  check  in  the  amount  of  $30,000  that  was  written 
at  tlie  Mercantile  National  Bank  in  Miami  Beach.  Tliat  is  to  the 
best  of  my  recollection.    I  am  sure  that  is  what  it  was. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Mr.  Bennett,  I  want  to  show  you.  this  canceled  check, 
dated  May  5, 1948.  Is  that  the  first  portion  of  the  loan  that  you  made 
to  Mr.  DeLucia,  that  $10,000  check  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  I  thought  at  the  time,  when  I  gave 
him  this  check^ — he  said  there  was  no  rush  about  it.  He  said,  "Wait 
until  you  have  all  the  money."  I  said,  "As  long  as  I  have  made  the 
check  out,  just  go  ahead  and  keep  it,  and  I  will  get  the  rest." 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  check  was  made  payable  to  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

]\Ir.  Robinson.  I  show  you  a  check  dated  June  17,  1948,  made  pay- 
able to  the  Mercantile  Bank. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.  I  believe  that  is  part  of  that  $30,000 ;  I  am  sure 
it  is,  in  fact,  that  went  to  make  up  the  $30,000  cashier's  check  that  I 
made  to  Mr.  DeLucia  or  his  wife.     I  don't  remember  which. 

Mv.  Robinson.  Why  was  the  check  made  out  in  that  fashion  and 
not  the  same  as  the  first  check  ? 

Mv.  Bennett.  Because  I  was  in  Florida  when  this  check  was  made 
out,  and  I  was  in  Chicago  when  that  first  check  was  made  out.  This 
check  was  made  out  to  the  Mercantile  National  Bank  because  I  was 
having  a  cashier's  check  made  for  $30,000. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  did  the  other  $10,000  come  from  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Mr.  Johnston.     He  loaned  me  that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  He  loaned  you  the  money  and  you  put  it  in  your 
account ;  is  that  correct  ? 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  281 

Mr  Bennett.  That  is  right.  I  put  the  first  $10,000  in  my  account. 
I  tMnk  the  second  10  ^vent  in-I  don't  remember  wliether  it  went  m 
Ly Tccolmt  or  not,  but  anyway,  I  had  it  at  the  time  that  I  wrote  this 
check  out.     I  think  he  wired  it  to  me. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Who  wired  the  money  to  you  i 
Mr  Bennett.  Mr.  Johnston.  .         .     >^,  •  o 

Mr  Robinson.  Was  Mr.  Johnston  here  at  the  time,  m  Chicago? 
Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  he  was  in  Jacksonville  at  the  time. 
Mr.  Robinson.  And  you  were  here? 
Air  Bfnnett    And  I  was  in  Miami.  . 

Mr.  RoB^^^N.  The  point  that  I  am  trying  to  get  at  ,s  where  the 
Other  f?;iO  000  came  from.     This  represents  ^^0,OUU. 

Mr    Bennett.  Well,  mv  bank  statement  will  show  a  deposit  of 
$10  000   the  first  10  I  borrowed;  and  the  second  10  that  I  borrowed 
will  show  in  that  wire  that  come  to  the  Mercantile  ^^^Vf' M^l  948 
Mr.  Robinson.  Let  me  show  you  your  bank  statement  for  May  1948. 
You  have  a  deposit  there  on  what  date,  ot  ^10,0UU « 
Mr.  Bennett.  May  6.  a..  ^  nr^n 

The  Chaibman.  May  6,  $10,000;  May  17,  $lo,000. 
Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  ^    ^i,    dji  k  nnn  ^r^^  rp 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  $15,000  deposit  represents  the  $15,000  you  re- 
ceived from  Silverberg? 

Mr.  IobTsS.  Ind  the  $10,000  on  May  10  ,vas  a  part  of  the  $20,000 
you  received  from  :Mr.  Johnston? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  Oiinnnn? 

Mr  Robinson.  What  did  you  do  with  the  other  $10,000  ? 
Mr  Bennett.  The  other  $10,000  was  wired  to  me  and  the  bank  and 
I  believe  ft  was  the  same  dav  that  it  came  in  that  I  went  to  the  bank 
Lid  made  his  $20,000  check  out,  and  with  that  $10,000-1  believe  they 
made  a  cashieil  check  to  me  when  the  wire  ^^ -cenj,^^^^^^^ 
I  think  I  endorsed  that  check  m  exchange  for  ^l^is  $20  000  and  that 
$10,000  that  came  by  wire,  I  got  a  cashiers  check  for  $30,000  which 
I  sent  to  the  attorney  up  here  to  finish  up  this  deal. 
Mr  Robinson.  You  do  not  have  that  check 

Mr  Bennett.  No.    That  is  a  cashier  s  check.  ,i      w. 

Mr.  RcmLsoN.  I  will  show  you  the  bank  statement  for  the  latter 
r>n rt  of  Mav  showing  a  deposit  of  $20,000.  r^^^    .   • 

'^  M,rBENNET?.  I  don't  lee  the  deposit.    That  is  a  check.    That  is 

*M?E™x.  Yes ;  that  is  riglit.  That  is  the  check  that  you  drew 
on  the  Mercantile  Bank? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  right. 

Mr  Robinson.  To  Mr.  DeLucia's  account  ^ 

5fr  SbTX.  To  pay  to  Mr.  DeLucia,  to  lend  to  Mr.  DeLucia? 

Mr  ioM^so"  ^am'^lfoTing-you  this  check  for  May  19,  1950— 
¥l'e  C^XmIn.  A  clS  in  the  amount  of  $40,000  to  Hugo  Bennett 

^Tr'^Sxi^S.^Sffs  mv  wife.  She  made  that  check  in  Florida. 
I  asked  her  to^ve  the  money  wired  to  me.  I  have  a  copy  of  the  wire 
to  tte  Continental  Bank  here.    The  Continental  Bank  in  turn-I  had 

68958 — 51— pt.  » 19 


282  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

a  casliier's  check  made  when  I  got  that  money.     That  was  on  this 
second  mortgage. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  liad  a  cashier's  check  drawn  on  that? 
Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.     You  see,  this  money  was  wired  to  me  from 
Florida.     There  is  the  wire  there.     It  was 'wired  to  the  Continental 
Bank. 
Mr.  Robinson.  To  your  account? 

Mr.  Bennett.  To  my  account.     I  have  no  account  there. 
Mr.  Robinson.  How  did  the  $40,000  get  into  Mr.  DeLucia's  hands? 
Mr.  Bennett.  That  was  a  check,  a  cashier's  check  also.     I  think  I 
have  the  stub  here.     That  cashier's  check  was  made  out  at  the  Cicero 
State  Bank.     At  any  rate,  they  do  have  a  record  of  it  at  the  bank. 
Mr.  Robinson.  Was  that  check  turned  over  to  Mr.  DeLucia  ? 
Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.     Mr.  and  Mrs.  DeLucia  both  came  to  the  bank^ 
and  I  gave  them  that  check,  because  the  wire  was  from  the  Continental 
to  the  Cicero  bank.     They  met  me  at  the  bank,  and  I  had  a  cashier's 
check  made  out  at  the  bank  for  $40,000,  and  gave  it  to  her  right  then 
and  there,  gave  it  to  botli  of  them. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  what  they  did  with  it? 
Mr.  Benneit'.  I  do  not  know  Mliat  they  did  with  it. 
Mr.  Robinson.  You  don't  know  whether  that  was  deposited  to  their 
account,  or  whether  they  drew  the  sum  out  in  cash? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  do  not  know.  I  just  gave  them  that  check.  I 
might  have  that  stub.  I  am  not  sure.  That  is  a  matter  of  record  in 
the  Cicero  bank. 

The  Chairman.  Let  me  see  if  I  understand  this,  now.     You  were 
up  here,  and  your  wife  was  in  Florida  ? 
Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairman.  She  wrote  a  check  to  you  while  in  Florida,  on  May 
19,  for  $40,000.  That  was  transferred'  by  wire  to  the  Continental 
Illinois  Bank  &  Trust? 

Mr.  Bennett.  The  Continental  Illinois  National  Bank. 
The  Chairman.  You  got  the  cashier's  check  there  for  $40,000  ? 
^    Mr.  Bennett.  You  see,  the  correspondent  of  the  Cicero  State  Bank 
m  Chicago  is  the  Continental  Illinois  Bank  &  Trust  Co.,  and  the  wire 
was  sent  to  the  Continental  for  the  Cicero  State  Bank  payable  to  my 
order.     I  think  it  is  shown  on  that  slip  there  that  you  have. 

Then  I  had  this  cashier's  check  made  out  at  the  bank 

The  Chairman.  At  which  bank? 

Mr.  Bennett.  At  the  Cicero  State  Bank,  made  payable  to  Nancy 
DeLucia.     The  money,  I  received  from  this  wire. 

The  Chairman.  The  Cicero  Bank  does  not  show  on  this  yellow  slip 
here.  ^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  some  record  will  show,  because  that  is  the  way 
t^^^money  was  wired.     It  was  through  the  Continental  Bank. 

Ihe  Chairman.  Anyway,  you  had  the  Continental  pass  it  on  to  the 
Cicero  bank? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  Then  you  got  a  check  there  to  Nancy  De  Lucia  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

The  Chairman.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Robinson. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Will  you  tell  me  something  about  Max  Silverberg^ 
1  ou  say  he  has  the  concession  at  Sportsman's  Park  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes ;  he  does. 


ORGAXIZED    CRIME    IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  283 

Mr.  RoBiNsox.  Wliat  does  he  pay  for  that  concession  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Approximately  $1,100  a  day. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  long  has  he  had  it  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  has  had  it  ever  since  the  track  was  opened  in  1932. 

Mr.  RoiiiNsoN.  Did  you  assist  him  in  any  way  in  getting  that  con- 
cession ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  I  did  not. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  it  by  contract? 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  is. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  what  other  concessions  Mr.  Silverberg 
has  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  has  the  concessions  at  Arlington  Park,  Washing- 
ton Park,  Miami  Beach  Kennel  Club,  Jacksonville  Kennel  Club,  Asso- 
ciated Outdoor  Clubs,  and  Orange  Park  Kennel  Club.  To  the  best  of 
my  recollection,  that  is  all  he  has. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  know  whether  he  has  any  concession  at  Copa 
City  or  the  Beachcomber  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  don't  believe  so. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  business  is  your  father  in,  Mr.  Bennett  1 

Mr.  Bennett.  My  father  is  an  artist. 

My.  Robinson.  Is  he  also  a  friend  of  Mr.  De  Lucia? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.     He  has  known  him  for  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  were  the  terms  of  your  loan  with  Mr.  De 
Lucia,  so  far  as  interest  payment  is  concerned  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  the  first  mortgage  was  made  out  so  that  the 
interest  was  payable  annually,  but  evidently  there  was  a  misunder- 
standing about  that,  because  it  was  Mr.  De  Lucia's  wish  that  the 
interest  would  be  payable  at  the  end  of  the  5-year  period.  I  believe 
the  first  mortgage  was  for  4  percent,  and  the  second  one  for  3I/2. 

Mr.  Robinson.  The  first  note  says  4l^  percent  per  annum. 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  that  interest  ever  been  paid  2 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  it  hasn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  any  new  note  ever  been  issued  to  reflect  the 
change  in  the  terms  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  there  hasn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  At  the  time  the  note  was  drawn,  was  there  any  clear 
understanding  as  to  what  the  interest  payment  was  to  be 't 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  yes.  I  thought  that  is  what  it  should  be,  around 
41/4.  ,  I  thought  that  was  the  prevailing  rate.  But  later  I  found  out 
that  on  mortgages  of  that  size,  they  generally  have  a  smaller  interest 
rate. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Such  as  what  ?  , 

Mr.  Bennett.  About  3%. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  that  the  present  understanding,  that  he  pays  31/- 
percent  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  On  the  second  one ;  yes.     Not  on  the  first  one. 

Mr.  Robinson.  We  are  speaking  about  the  first  one. 

Mr.  Bennett.  The  first  one  stands. 

Mr.  Robinson.  But  there  has  been  no  interest  payment  on  that  ? 

Mr.  Bexneit.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  oral  agreement  that  you  now  have  ? 

Mr.  Bexxett.  The  he  pay  up  all  the  interest  at  the  end  of  the  period, 
unless  he  sells  the  home  and  pays  off  the  mortgage. 


284  ORGANIZED    CRIME-   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  is  the  period  of  the  note? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Five  years. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Wasn't  it  the  original  agreement  that  he  pay  noth- 
ing on  the  interest  at  all,  and  let  it  ride  for  5  years  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  On  the  first  mortgage  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  :  it  wasn't.  There  was  a  sort  of  misunderstand- 
]  ng.  I  understood  that  he  was  willing  to  pay  it  every  year,  but  later  he 
told  me  that  he  would  prefer  to  pay  it  at  the  end  of  the  5-year  period, 
and  I  said  that  would  be  perfectly  all  right. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Had  you  ever  made  any  loans  of  that  size  before? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Not  that  size ;  no. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  many  loans  have  you  made  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well,  I  have  made  one  of  $4,500. 

Mr.  Robinson.  With  whom  did  yon  negotiate  that  loan  ? 

Mr.  Benne'it.  With  one  of  my  best  friends,  a  fellow  by  the  name  of 
Furlong. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  his  first  name  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Charles  M. 

The  Chairman.  Wliere  does  he  live? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oak  Park,  111. 

The  Chairman.  What  does  he  do? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  is  a  Government  employee. 

Mr.  Hallet.  Let's  find  out  about  what  part  of  the  Government 
Mr.  Furlong  worked  for. 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  is  an  electrician  for  the  Federal  Buildino-  the 
new  Post  Office  Building.  *" 

Mr.  Halley.  The  Federal  Government? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  lend  him  the  money  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  In  1947. 

Mr.  Halley.  Has  it  been  paid  back  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  it  hasn't  been  paid  back. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  is  the  interest  rate  on  that  loan  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  interest  rate. 

Mr.  Halley.  No  interest  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  received  no  money  back  ? 

Mr.  Bennetp.  No,  I  haven't. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  long  have  you  known  Mr.  Furlong  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  have  known  him  about  27,  about  25  years. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  have  any  security  for  that  loan  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  I  don't. 

The  Chairman.  You  just  loan  somebody  $4,600  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  have  the  note.  He  is  going  to  build  a  house  with 
the  money.  He  loaned  me  money  before.  I  was  just  repaying  a 
favor. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  the  next  biggest  loan  you  have  made? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  the  only  one. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  you  recall  how  much  you  had  left  in  your  bank 
at  the  time  the  second  loan  was  made  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  At  the  time  the  second  loan  was  made  ? 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  about  $3,000  or  so. 


0RGA2WZEC    CRIME   IjST   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  285 

Mr.  EoBiNSON.  Did  that  leave  you  a  little  bit  short  of  what  your 
ordinary  bank  balance  was?  .         ,.14!^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  but  I  had  some  money  coming  shortly  attei 

that. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Where  from  ?  . 

Mr.  Bennett.  Chicago  Downs  Association. 

Mr.  Robinson.  In  what  amount  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  about  $4,000.  .  -,      ,  i 

Mr  Robinson.  Mr.  Bennett,  you  say  the  only  and  sole  reason  why 
you  made  this  loan  to  Mr.  DeLucia  was  because  of  friendship  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  .  .    ,  . 

Mr  Robinson.  Yet  vou  had  never  seen  fit  to  visit  him  m  prison  or 
write  to  him,  and  had"^only  infrequent  association  with  him  ^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  -.i  at     c-i 

Mr  Robinson.  When  you  discussed  making  a  loan  with  xMr.  bilver- 
berg,  you  gave  no  indication  of  why  you  wanted  that  money  ( 

Mr.' Bennett.  No,  I  didn't. 

Ur.  Robinson.  Or  with  Mr.  Johnston,  either? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.  I  did  not.  -^     ^-       . 

Mr.  Robinson.  Doesn't  it  sound  like  a  rather  peculiar  situation  to 

^"^Mr  Bennett.  Well,  the  thing  was,  Mr.  DeLucia  sort  of  pleaded  his 
case  with  me,  tliat  he  was  looking  for  somebody  who  had  a  good 
reputation  that  he  could  deal  with.  I  guess  he  didn't  know  who  else 
to  turn  to.  and  I  wanted  to  help  the  man  out. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  get  this  straight,  now  Mr.  Bennett,  do  you 
mean  that  you  approached  Mr.  Johnston  and  borrowed  $20,000 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  sir.  ^    i  -4.  j;  ,,9 

The  Chairman.  And  he  did  not  ask  you  what  you  wanted  it  toi  « 

Mr  Bennett.  He  asked  me  what  I  wanted  it  for. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  tell  him  what  you  wanted  it  tor . 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  I  didn't.  I  told  him  I  wanted  it  for  an  invest- 
ment, an  investment  I  wanted  to  make.  ,        .,  T      1  ^ 

The  Chairman.  AVithout  your  telling  him  what  it  was,  he  loaned 
you  that  much  money  ? 

:Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  he  did. 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  borrow  any  big  amount  trom  liim 

before  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.  no  big  amount.  i  •      i.  -p    ^? 

The  Chairman.  Did  you  ever  borrow  anything  from  him  betore  ? 
]\Ir  Bennett.  I  may  have,  some  small  amount. 
The  Chairman.  But  anyway,  it  was  inconsequential  amounts  up  to 

that  time  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  _       , .     -r  i      .       ■   ,       ^9 

The  Chairman.  You  have  been  paying  Mr.  Johnston  interests 

j\[r.  Bennett.  No,  I  haven't. 

The  Chairman.  How  old  is  that  note? 

Mr  Bennett.  You  mean  Mr.  Johnston's  note? 

The  Chairman.  Yes,  those  notes  that  you  gave  him. 

Mr  Bennett.  That  dates  back  to  sometime  m  1948.     ^     _  ,      ^      , 

The  Chairman.  How  much  interest  are  you  to  pay  Mr  Johnston  ? 

ISIr  Bennett   I  don't  believe  there  is  any  interest  on  that. 

The  Chairman.  You  ought  to  know.    Is  he  charging  you  interest,  , 
or  not  ? 


286  ORGANIZED    CRIME'   IN    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  BENNE'rr.  No,  no.  No,  tliere  is  no  interest  on  it.  I  am  fairly 
certain  there  was  no  interest  on  that. 

The  Chairman.  Surely  a  man  would  not  lend  you  $20,000  without 
any  interest? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Mr.  Johnston  and  I  have  known  each  other  for  a  long 
time,  and  have  been  quite  friendly.  I  offered  him  collateral  on  it,  and 
from  the  friendship  standpoint  I  can  very  well  understand  why  he 
wouldn't  charge  me  interest. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  whether  he  is  going  to  charge  you 
interest,  or  not  ?  * 

Mr.  Bennp:tt.  I  am  positive  he  isn't.  The  note  doesn't  say  any- 
thing.   I  don't  think  the  note  says  any  interest. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Do  3^ou  have  a  copy  of  the  note  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  never  retained  a  copy  of  the  note  for  $20,000 
that  you  gave  to  somebody  else? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  I  didn't. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  retain  a  copy  of  the  note  that  you  gave  to 
Mr.  Silverberg? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  I  didn't.  J 

Mr.  Robinson.  Was  that  no  interest,  too?  ^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  No  interest  payable? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  interest  there,  either. 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  were  the  terms  of  the  note  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  On  demand. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Both  notes  on  demand? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  think  they  are  both  payable  on  demand,  yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Didn't  you  see  fit  to  retain  a  copy  of  either  one  of  the 
notes,  for  $35,000? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  right.    I  never  have  retained  copies  of  notes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  How  would  you  prove  the  situation  in  case  Mr.  Sil- 
verberg died  ?     How  would  he  collect  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  owe  him.    He  doesn't  owe  me. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  right.  He  has  the  original  of  the  note,  but 
you  didn't  retain  a  copy  of  it,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  right. 

Mr,  Robinson.  Why  did  you  tell  Johnston  you  wanted  the  money  to 
make  an  investment? 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  was  a  natural  thing  for  him  to  ask  me  what  I  was 
going  to  do  with  it,  and  I  said  I  had  an  investment  I  wanted  to  make. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Did  you  consider  this  an  investment? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  considered  it  more  of  a  favor  than  an  investment. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Then  you  didn't  tell  Mr.  Johnston  the  truth  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  could  be. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Has  Mr.  Johnston  been  a  friend  of  yours  for  some 
years? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Robinson.  Is  it  a  habit  of  yours  not  to  tell  a  friend  the  truth? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Well 

Mr.  Robinson.  What  I  am  getting  at- 


Mr.  Bennett.  Mr.  Johnston  wouldn't  approve  what  I  did,  that  is 
all. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IK    INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  287 

Mr.  Robinson.  If  you  told  him  the  circiimstcinces  under  which  the 
loan  Avas  made,  would  he  approve?  •  p  ,     i 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  guess  Mr.  Johnston  wouldn  t  approve  it  he  knew 
who  I  made  the  loan  to.  ^  ,  i 

Mr.  Robinson.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  Mr.  Johnston  knew  you  were 
making  the  loan  to  Mr.  DeLucia? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  that  under  oath? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.  ^  ,r     o-i       u 

Mr.  Robinson.  You  say  the  same  thing  so  far  as  Mr.  bilverberg  is 

concerned  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Robinson.  That  is  all  I  have. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  finance  the  1950  loan  i 

Mr.  Benneit.  My  own  money.  i  -.n-n? 

Mr.  Halley.  You  had  acquired  $40,000  between  1948  and  19o0? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  How  did  you  acquire  it?     Did  your  income  increase 

anV?  .  ^         rrM 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.  Yes;  my  Income  increased.  •  Ihere  was  one 
deal  that  i  went  in  on  several  years  ago  that  left  me  a  $28,000  profit. 

Mr.  Halley.  ^Vlien  did  you  get  the  $28,000  profit  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  got  part  of  it  in  1949  and  part  of  it  m  1950. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  deal  was  that? 

Mr.  Benneto.  That  was  the  sale  of  land.  I  had  a  25-percent  inter- 
est in  land  belonging  to  the  Miami  Beach  Kennel  Club,  -r  1      ^      9 

Mr.  Halley.  That  was  the  deal  you  were  m  on  with  Bill  Johnston? 

Mr'  Bennett.  That  is  correct ;  and  many  others. 

Mr.  Halley.  Was  the  whole  land  sold,  or  just  your  part? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  the  whole  parcel  was  sold. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  everybody  was  paid  their  share? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Everybody  was  paid  the  same  share. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  got  your  share  that  way  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  sir.  ^.  .  ,r     -r^  t      • 

Mr.  Halley.  Wliat  happened  in  1950?     Did  Mr.  DeLucia  come 

back  to  see  you  again? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  didn't  come  to  see  me.     I  went  to  see  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  went  to  his  farm ;  is  that  correct? 

Mr  Be^^nett.  No  ;  I  think  I  went  to  his  house. 

The  Chairman.  Before  you  proceed,  what  was  this  1949  deal?  1 
believe  you  brought  this  in.  What  is  that?  [Hancbng  document  to 
the  witness.] 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  What  was  that  amount?  ,..,,.     ,    ,o      . 

Mr  Bennett.  That  is  a  capital  gain.  It  was  divided  m  halt,  ot 
course;  it  was  a  capital  gain  in  the  amount  of  $13,974.82,  the  taxable 

portion  of  it.  .      „  i 

The  Chairman.  It  is  described  here  as  net  gam  from  sale  or  ex- 
change of  capital  assets,  $18,974.82. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  is  the  schedule  attached  ?  . 

Mr  Bennett.  I  couldn't  find  it.  I  don't  know.  They  usually  give 
you  just  one  with  your  tax  return,  and  it  is  quite  possible  that  I  didn  t 
have  a  copy. 


288  ORGANIZED    CRIME:   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Hallfa'.  You  did  file  such  a  schedule,  though,  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  We  definitely  did. 

Mr.  Halijsy.  So  you  got  $26,000  or  $28,000  out  of  that? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  also  got  my  original  investment  back. 

Mr.  Hai.ley.  Then  in  June  of  1950,  Ricca  called  you ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  To  the  best  of  my  recollection.  I  don't  remember 
whether  he  called  me  or  whether  I  went  to  see  him. 

Mr.  Halley.  Where  were  you  when  he  asked  you  to  come  to  see  him? 
Were  you  here  in  Chicago  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  don't  remember  whether  he  asked  me  to  come  to 
see  him,  or  w^iether  I  just  went  to  see  liim,  but  when  I  first  saw  him  I 
was  in  Chicago  here. 

Mr.  Halley.  He  said  he  needed  another  $40,000? 

Mr.  Bennett.  He  told  me  from  the  very  beginning  that  he  was  going 
to  need  more  money,  and  lie  had  tried,  I  believe,  during  the  year  1949, 
to  try  to  get  a  loan  from  the  Prudential  Life  Insurance  Co.  for  about 
$65,000, 1  believe.  I  presume  he  would  have  liked  to  borrow  more  than 
he  did,  but  that  is  all  I  could  loan  him  at  the  time. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  loaned  him  the  second  $40,000,  that  left 
you  with  about  $1,000  in  the  bank  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No  ;  it  left  me  with  more  than  that. 

Mr.  Halley.  Let's  get  the  bank  statement  for  1950.  I  see  a  check 
on  May  19  for  $40,000,  and  a  deposit  the  same  day  of  $1,100,  and  a 
balance  at  the  end  of  that  month  of  only  $3,400;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  would  that  have  left  you  in  the  bank? 

Mr.  Bennett.  $3,400. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  made  a  deposit,  after  you  made  the  loan,  of  $1,100, 
is  that  right  ?    It  left  you  about  $2,400,  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  My  wife  was  in  Florida  at  the  time,  and  I  talked  to 
her  on  the  telephone,  and  I  asked  her,  "What  is  our  balance?"  She 
told  me  it  was  over  $3,000  after  the  $40,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  other  assets  do  you  have  at  this  time,  in  addition 
to  the  cash  in  the  bank  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  have  my  home. 

The  Chairman.  Let  us  see  that  schedule. 

Mr.  Halley.  The  home  cost  $8,000;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  list  improvements  on  it  of  $3,000? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Approximately.     That  is  just  a  guess. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  some  lots  worth  $3,650 ;  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  M'hat  I  paid  for  them. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  buy  the  lots? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  bought  the  lots,  one  was  bought  a  w^ay  back  about 
1941  or  1942.     The  other  one  was  bought  in  1949,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Halley.  Then  you  have  a  summer  residence  that  cost  $5,000; 
is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  Now,  you  have  some  stock  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have,  yourself  and  your  wife,  1,100  shares  in  the 
Miami  Beach  Kennel  Club ;  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  289 

-\\v  TT4TTFY    What  is  tlie  value  of  that  stock?  i    ^.  t 

fir.  Bennkxt    I  don't  know  what  the  vah.e  is.     I  know  what  I 

paid  for  it.  <;      •^? 

Mr  Halley.  What  did  you  pay  for  it  < 
Mr  Bennett.  Whatever  it  shows  there. 
Mr!  Halley.  $940? 
Mr.  Bennett.  No.     $9,400. 
Mr.  Halley.  $9,400? 

Mr.  &T-Y™'have"sf  ock  in  the  National  Jockey  Ch.b  that  cost 

$2  475  ? 

kr.  Bennett.  $24,000. 

Mr.  Halley.  $24,750? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  r»„f/lo^r.  Plnbc!  for 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  stock  in  the  Associated  Outdoor  Clubs  tor 

$400  ? 

Mr.  ^.^"^'Ziin  the  Orange  Park  Kennel  Club  for  $750? 
Mr.  HXT'Ald'in  the  Jacksonville  Kennel  Club  for  $1,200? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes  .. -r,    i  4;     ojoqaa? 

Mr.  Halley.  The  Narragansett  Park  for  $2,d00  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.  j;      <tinn9 

Mr  Halley.  And  the  Chicago  Downs  for  $100  i 

Mr  Bennett.  $100 ;  yes.     It  cost  $100.  . 

Mr.  TUlley.  And  the  Eastern  Gas  &  Fuel  common,  $250;  is  that 

right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Fifty  shares? 

Mr   hTl^^'tIosc  are  your  total  assets,  in  addition  to  the  note 
from  Charles  Furlong  forV,500,  and  whatever  cash  you  have;  is 

Mr  Bennett.  That  is  right,  plus  a  small  note  of  $300. 

Mr.  hIlley   Then  youVe  $35,000  to  Silverberg  and  Jolmston 

against  these  assets  ? 

Mr  Bennett.  That  is  correct.  . 

Mr.  Halley.  When  you  went  to  the  home  of  Ricca,  was  it  a  more 
modest  home  than  yours  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  it  w^asn't.  ■    -^      .0 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  a  very  elaborate  home,  is  it  not  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Had  you  seen  his  farm  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.  •    •.       ^0 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  a  very  elaborate  farm,  is  it  not  i 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  is  a  nice  farm.  •     v  -^9 

Mr.  Halley.  It  is  worth  about  half  a  million  dollars,  isn  t  it? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  A  very  nice  farm  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes.  ,    . 

Mr  Halley.  It  is  a  luxury  farm,  is  it  not  ^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  wouldn't  say  that.     It  seemed  to  be  an  ordinal^ 
farm  to  me. 


290  ORGANIZED    CRIMEi   IN   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE 

Mr.  Halley.  It  has  a  great  many  improvements  on  it  that  have 
been  put  on  in  tiie  last  few  years,  has  it  not  ? 

Mr.  BENNE'rr.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  Ricca  drives  a  new  Cadillac,  doesn't  he? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  guess  so.     I  don't  know.     I  don't  know  what  he 
drives. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  ha^e  seen  him,  haven't  you ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  but  I  don't  knoAv  what  he  drives. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  never  even  saw  his  automobile  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  paid  no  particular  attention  to  what  kind  of 
automobile  he  had. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  kind  of  an  automobile  do  you  have  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  A  Pontiac. 

Mr.  Halley.  You  have  a  Pontiac? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  When  did  you  buy  it  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  bouglit  it  in  1948—1949. 

Mr.  Halley.  1949  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  any  other  automobiles? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  other  automobile  have  you? 

Mr.  Bennett.  A  Pontiac. 

Mr.  Halley.  Two  Pontiacs  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Both  bought  in  1949  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.     One  in  1950. 

Mr.  Halley.  One  in  1950  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  And  one  in  1949  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  any  other  automobiles  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No. 

Mr.  Halley.  Mr.  E-icca  also  has  another  residence,  has  he  not? 

Mr.  Bennett.  You  mean  the  one  in  Long  Beach  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Halley.  Is  that  a  rather  elaborate  residence  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  should  say  it  is. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  3^our  income 

The  Chairman.  Just  a  minute,  now. 

Tliis  Long  Beach  residence — he  has  a  second  mortgage  on  that,  has 
he  not,  or  a  first  mortgage  ? 
Mr,  Bennett.  First. 

The  CJtairman.  What  did  you  figure  that  place  was  worth? 
Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  about  $75,000. 
The  Chairman.  No  mortgage  ? 

Mr.  Halley.  No  mortgage.     It  is  paid  off.     I  think  that  is  the 
testimony. 

The  Chairman.  How  about  the  loan 

Mr.  Kerner.  Here  is  the  mortgage. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  the  Long  Beach.     That  is  your  own  mortgage,  isn't 
that,  on  the  Long  Beach  ? 
Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 


ORGANIZED    CRIME    IX   INTERSTATE    COMMERCE  291 

Mr.  Halley.  But  you  had  no  mortgage  on  the  home  ? 
Mr.  Bexnett.  You  mean  his  home  in  River  Forest  ? 
Mr.  Halley.  Yes. 
Mr.  Bennett.  Oh,  no. 
Mr.  Halley.  No  mortgage  on  that? 
Mr  Bennett.  No,  I  didn't  have  a  mortgage  on  that. 
Mr.  Halley.  You  have,  of  course,  a  mortgage  on  the  farm< 
Mr.  Bennett,  Yes. 

The  C'hairman.  Where  is  Long  Beach  ? 
Mr.  Bennett.  Indiana. 

The  Chairman.  Is  that  just  a  residence,  a  summer  home? 
Mr.  Bennett.  Yes,  but  it  is  quite  an  elaborate  summer  home.     It 
has  quite  an  elaborate  swimming  pool  and  tennis  courts,  beautiful 

landscaping.  .    £  .a     4.-       o 

The  Chairman.  Does  Mr.  DeLucia  live  there  part  ol  the  time? 
Mr  Bennett.  He  used  to  live  there. 
The  Chairman.  Did  you  see  about  the  insurance  on  that  property  ? 

Do  you  have  the  insurance  policy  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  I  haven't.  ,   .    .    .  -,  .     o 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  how  much  it  is  insured  tor  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No.  I  don't.  .  „       ...    ^^ 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  seen  about  or  had  any  talk  with  Mr. 

DeLucia  about  insurance  at  all  ? 

J^Ir.  Bennett.  I  left  those  matters  entirely  up  to  my  attorney  to 

The  Chairman.  You  mean  you  loaned  $40,000  on  a  house  at  Long 
Beach,  and  you  do  not  know  anything  about  whether  it  is  insured  or 
anything  else  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  have  been  there.  I  have  seen  the  home,  and  1  have 
checked  it ;  but  my  attorney  was  to  check  everything  for  me.  I  left 
those  things  entirely  up  to  the  attorney  to  see  that  everything  is  m 
order,  that^I  am  fully  protected. 

The  Chairman.  Who  is  living  at  the  home  now  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  don't  believe  anybody  is,  right  now,  as  I  under- 
stand it. 

The  Chairman.  Excuse  me,  Mr.  Halley. 

Mr.  Halley.  What  was  your  income  m  1949,  aside  from  that  real 

estate  sale  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  About  $22,000  in  salaries.  I  can't  say  offhand  what 
the  dividends  would  approximate,  but  I  should  say  there  was  better 
than  $10,000  in  dividends. 

Mr.  Halley.  Do  you  have  the  income  tax  return  form  ? 

Mr  Bennett.  It  is  here.  You  can  get  it  from  that. 

]Mr.  Halley.  You  show  a  total  of  $49,000  less  the  capital  gam  of 
$13,000.  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  riaht. 

Mr.  Halley.  That  would  be  $36,000? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Halley.  On  that  you  paid  a  tax  of  $15,000  ? 

Mr.  Benn